Patriotism is wanting good for your country.

Nationalism is the belief that good will come to your country through harm to other countries.

Patriots can be both nationalist (advocates of war and trade barriers) and, for want of a better word, internationalist (advocates of peace and free trade).

The only reason you would believe patriotism and nationalism are the same is if you believe nations benefit from harming others.

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He or she who supports a State organized in a military way – whether directly or indirectly – participates in sin. Each man takes part in the sin by contributing to the maintenance of the State by paying taxes.

~ Gandhi

Why not try to rationalize this:

Chrysler gives bonuses, asks for bailout - Top Stocks Blog - MSN Money

away, old chap.

While you're at it, please also explain why a person whose income is the result of coupon clipping should have that income taxed at a lower rate that the income of Joe the Plumber who makes his living clearing clogged sewer pipes.

Wanting good for your country can only mean in comparison to others, which means doing more for your country than for humanity as a whole. I see no functional difference between patriotism and nationalism. The entire concept of loyalty to a nation or state is a crock.

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“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
“It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
"It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
"We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

You can want good for your country in absolute terms, meaning you want the people there to be better off, even if those in other nations are even more better off. So no, it has nothing to do with "in comparison to others", that's a contrivance to equate two terms with different meanings.

I agree, but it's you who whined about disloyalty when I said I would leave my country for one with better tax conditions, some consistency please?

You are in high-theory an international socialist of the pure ideological sort, but in practice worship national government as a surrogate god.

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He or she who supports a State organized in a military way – whether directly or indirectly – participates in sin. Each man takes part in the sin by contributing to the maintenance of the State by paying taxes.

~ Gandhi

Link please? I don't recall saying anything of the kind.

__________________
“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
“It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
"It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
"We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

Actually if you had read beyond the depth of the article you would have learned that the bonuses were put in place to keep top executives from leaving in the event the company were to be sold making the company allot more attractive to a potential buyer. To a new owner if you have a plan to keep the top executives in the company it greatly helps with transition and allows business to continue during transition. If you don't you would end up closing the doors for a month or two where everyone is layed off. Then when you get ready to open the doors again you would have to hire new employees for the ones that have found new employment. Chester you have to think beyond just reading on the surface.

Well that was not very well thought out was it? The person clipping coupons doesn’t pay taxes do they? And it isn't Joe the plumbers income it's his business income. And if you knew anything you would know that a business with a profit of $250,000 is a very small business and that profit doesn’t go in to Joes pocket it goes back in to the business as operating capitol. This business would have maybe two to four employees. If you raise taxes on that business Joe is going to have to lay some of his employees off. So you are mixing two completely different types of incomes. Ya know if you are going to ask these questions Cap you need to know the facts to go along with them.

Chester in order to understand how an economy works first you need to understand how a business works.

__________________
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Ever shot a machinegun? Want to know what its like? Go to http://hansonshoot.com

Unbelievable to see that there are those who think that rewarding those who brought Chrysler to the brink of collapse in the first place is a good idea.

Also, please don't insult the forum's intelligence by saying this collapse was unforeseeable. These guys were hired supposedly because they were the best and the brightest.

Second, we're not talking about Joe's BUSINESS'S income here, we're talking about his PERSONAL income. You know, the amount in his own pocket after meeting all the company's expenses, including, if Joe has as much brainpower as his augur, reinvestment in his company.

If he earns more than $250K per annum, he should look forward to paying more taxes on his good fortune. Besides which, at the $250K level, his total tax increase will be 10/month. I wonder if our huothetical Joe spends more than that on beer, ciggies, and lottery tickets.

At the same time, the fat cat investor with an income of $250M per year from clipping coupons, should pay taxes at the same rate as Joe.

It's the American way.

In the future, please, no more strawmen and conflating of the issues.

If you are blaming Chrysler executives for their troubles, that they should have seen it coming. Then you have to blame Ford, GM, Toyota, AIG, Fanny, Freddy, etc. Since just about all companies world wide took a hit on this and almost no one was spared, then I guess no one saw this coming did they. Except George Bush, John McCain, and Allen Greenspan.

YouTube - Burning Down The House: What Caused Our Economic Crisis?

Yes we are talking about the business since if you listened to the clip Joe is talking about the business making that money not himself. Obviously you don't know how a business operates. A business needs operating capitol to stay in business and grow. It has to have capitol in case it needs to buy new equipment or repair broken equipment, to be able to purchase stock, pay rent, quarterly taxes etc. It can't run to the bank for a loan every time it needs money for operating expenses. So for you to think that the profits go in to the owner’s pocket is ludicrous. If it did he wouldn't be in business for very long and when he went bankrupt his personal assesets would be part of the business and would be in jepordy.

Here’s the clip of Joe listen for yourself. YouTube - Obama Explains His Tax Cut Plans To Plumbing Business Owner


huothetical? Can you give me a definition please? If you meant hypothetical I refer you to the clip, he isn’t and imaginary person. And I’m certain that you can substantiate your claims that he spends more than his income on vices?


The American way is about freedom and equality isn’t it? That said were is it that by making one pay more in the same tax (percentage wise) than another is fair or equal it isn’t. That sounds more like discrimination to me and that is un-American. Now if you are talking about capital gains taxes and mixing it with income taxes wouldn't you be the one guilty of conflation of the issues?

If you are going to accuse me of something please show the quotes and give your explanation. All I saw was you not being up to speed and confused with the debate.

__________________
Transferable Thompson SMG drawing: http://www.hansonrodandgunclub.org/raffle
Ever shot a machinegun? Want to know what its like? Go to http://hansonshoot.com

Absolutely not. I support the disolution of the IRS and the income tax. Along with SS and medicaid/medicare taxes and the removal of the federal gov't from any and all things not proscribed by law within the framework of the Constitution. But to be perfectly honest, the law that the IRS bases the code on completely and irrefuteably exempts all private enterprises and private earned money from work. Don't believe me? Take a look at the actual laws the code itself, not what the IRS publishes. The IRS has lied to you and stolen more than half your pay for your entire life. Find out how you too can actually make a difference in the way our gov't operates. Go to losthorizons.com/Cracking_the_Code for the truth. I've read the book and then went to the actual titles in the US Code of laws and found that the things contained on that site are 100% true as far as the contents of the book and what its author says. I can't verify all the refund checks posted there of refunds issued for 100% of all SS, medicare, medicaid and income taxes. But there are well over $10,000,000.00 worth of them from people all across the U.S. saying they are. Save your country and your rights as a US citizen before it is too late. Just go check it out and then read the actual laws in the Title haaving to do with the IRS. You need to go to the first website mentioned to understand what you will be looking for when going to gpoaccess.gov/uscode/browse.htm
when at the gov't site scroll down to Title 26. That is the one for the IRS. Have fun and try not to get too angry. Just channel that anger toward the changes that have to take place in this corrupt gov't we are subject to.

Absolutely not. I support the disolution of the IRS and the income tax. Along with SS and medicaid/medicare taxes and the removal of the federal gov't from any and all things not proscribed by law within the framework of the Constitution. But to be perfectly honest, the law that the IRS bases the code on completely and irrefuteably exempts all private enterprises and private earned money from work. Don't believe me? Take a look at the actual laws the code itself, not what the IRS publishes. The IRS has lied to you and stolen more than half your pay for your entire life. Find out how you too can actually make a difference in the way our gov't operates. Go to losthorizons.com/Cracking_the_Code for the truth. I've read the book and then went to the actual titles in the US Code of laws and found that the things contained on that site are 100% true as far as the contents of the book and what its author says. I can't verify all the refund checks posted there of refunds issued for 100% of all SS, medicare, medicaid and income taxes. But there are well over $10,000,000.00 worth of them from people all across the U.S. saying they are. Save your country and your rights as a US citizen before it is too late. Just go check it out and then read the actual laws in the Title haaving to do with the IRS. You need to go to the first website mentioned to understand what you will be looking for when going to gpoaccess.gov/uscode/browse.htm
when at the gov't site scroll down to Title 26. That is the one for the IRS. Have fun and try not to get too angry. Just channel that anger toward the changes that have to take place in this corrupt gov't we are subject to.

Oh good, Fair Tax. I've been meaning to tell Clinton something in reply to his statements over the years that we all need to pay our fair share in taxes. Clinton, you arrogant, flaming turkey - we were paying our fair share of taxes long before you showed up.

And Obama - Palin is right - it is immoral and hideous to pass along trillions of dollars in new debt to our children and grandchildren. There's many kinds of slavery, and enslaving future generations of Americans is placing them in economic slavery to the tax collector. It would be nice if you tried solving problems without throwing hundreds of billions of dollars at them.

I say vote them all out and let's start over.

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"For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries." (NASA Astronomer Robert Jastrow, God and the Astronomers, p. 116.)

Trebor and Jazy Jason are on Ignore.

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I'll keep my guns and my money. You can keep your "Change".

"We had the machine scared and scrambling, and for them it is just the beginning of an election year filled with surprises. They will be challenged again and again across this country. When there's trouble in Massachusetts, there's trouble everywhere -- and now they know it." Senator Scott Brown (R MA)

Too late...the baby boomers have received the benefits and the rest are left to pay. We can pass the buck to the next generation or pay it off now. If given the choice to acrifice yourself for the benefit of people in the future or to push it to the next generation the American public will always pick themselves (see abortion, war, and our debt). This isn't going to change and EasyRider proved it. You want to pay it up? Raise taxes and cut spending. No other way.

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