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Thread: Evolution versus Creationism

  1. #16
    Archangel Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Otto View Post
    I don't normally bother picking up typo's but you've spelt 'dogmatic adherence' wrongly here.
    Oh really, how do you spell faith Otto ?

    Quote Originally Posted by First1in View Post
    Blind faith is just a part of religion, any religion. The problem comes when your blind faith is disproved by science. Science is based on results, repeatable results, these results convert easily into facts. Why is it so hard for these people who are stuck in their blind faith to except facts over fantasy?
    My faith isn't blind at all. It's an act of my will though. It is understanding that I don't understand everything and am not so pompous as to believe I can explain every jot and diddle in either the bible or in the world through science. What you don't understand as a Natural Man is that each person has a god, even when they claim atheism. We worship that which we place our faith in. So your faith is in your god which is science, specifically evolution as an explanation for who man is.

    The problem is that your answer for our origins makes us nothing more than an animal, a soulless beast of burden with no higher calling. I know that is wrong and that we are above the animals of the World. At every possible level we disagree about who and what Man is and why we exist. And sadly that reality will continue to be. But don't expect me to degrade my standing as a human being just to be considered a pseudo intellectual in your club of humanists.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
    Not at all Mucusaur, Just because the truth of the bible can't be proven scientifically, it doesn't mean it isn't the spiritual record of truth regarding the origins of Man. Am I capable of explaining every question we have ? NO! But that surely shouldn't be a reason to reject it as the absolute truth that it is. I guess that's where the faith comes in, huh ?

    but is there a reason to accept it as the absolute truth in the first place?
    There was a demon that lived in the air. They said whoever challenged him would die. Their controls would freeze up, their planes would buffet wildly, and they would disintegrate. The demon lived at Mach 1 on the meter, seven hundred and fifty miles an hour, where the air could no longer move out of the way. He lived behind a barrier through which they said no man could ever pass. They called it the sound barrier.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mucusaur View Post
    but is there a reason to accept it as the absolute truth in the first place?
    Yes; because God gave it to us as His guide for living within His will. And if He is Truly God then He is worthy of that honor, trust and respect. By rejecting Him and His precepts we are elevating ourselves above Him and making ourselves like Him. According to His spiritual laws that is blasphemy and all who claim science over faith are guilty of that.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
    Oh really, how do you spell faith Otto ?
    F...E...A...R

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
    Yes; because God gave it to us as His guide for living within His will. And if He is Truly God then He is worthy of that honor, trust and respect. By rejecting Him and His precepts we are elevating ourselves above Him and making ourselves like Him. According to His spiritual laws that is blasphemy and all who claim science over faith are guilty of that.
    Well, what i meant was how do we know your particular brand of faith (i.e. Christianity) is correct? Maybe the jews have the right god? Or the buddists are in on the real deal, and we christians are all just barking in the dark? Is there any evidence that vindicates the bible over other religous manuscripts?
    There was a demon that lived in the air. They said whoever challenged him would die. Their controls would freeze up, their planes would buffet wildly, and they would disintegrate. The demon lived at Mach 1 on the meter, seven hundred and fifty miles an hour, where the air could no longer move out of the way. He lived behind a barrier through which they said no man could ever pass. They called it the sound barrier.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
    Oh really, how do you spell faith Otto ?



    My faith isn't blind at all. It's an act of my will though. It is understanding that I don't understand everything and am not so pompous as to believe I can explain every jot and diddle in either the bible or in the world through science. What you don't understand as a Natural Man is that each person has a god, even when they claim atheism. We worship that which we place our faith in. So your faith is in your god which is science, specifically evolution as an explanation for who man is.

    The problem is that your answer for our origins makes us nothing more than an animal, a soulless beast of burden with no higher calling. I know that is wrong and that we are above the animals of the World. At every possible level we disagree about who and what Man is and why we exist. And sadly that reality will continue to be. But don't expect me to degrade my standing as a human being just to be considered a pseudo intellectual in your club of humanists.
    pssst, actually Humans are animals.
    There are truths which are not for all men, nor for all times

    Letter to Cardinal de Bernis, April 23, 1761--Voltaire

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
    Yes; because God gave it to us as His guide for living within His will. And if He is Truly God then He is worthy of that honor, trust and respect. By rejecting Him and His precepts we are elevating ourselves above Him and making ourselves like Him. According to His spiritual laws that is blasphemy and all who claim science over faith are guilty of that.
    IOW, blind faith.

  8. #23
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    And if He is Truly God
    Pretty big "if"...
    The problem is that your answer for our origins makes us nothing more than an animal, a soulless beast of burden with no higher calling.
    Your "problem", that you wish to be something more than "just an animal" does not affect the reality.
    Why pray when you can Google?

  9. #24
    Archangel Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Mucusaur View Post
    Well, what i meant was how do we know your particular brand of faith (i.e. Christianity) is correct? Maybe the jews have the right god? Or the buddists are in on the real deal, and we christians are all just barking in the dark? Is there any evidence that vindicates the bible over other religous manuscripts?
    First of all, my God is the God of Israel. Yahweh is the Creator of all that is and Jesus who is the stone that the builder (Israel) rejected, became the cornerstone of our faith. God simply fulfilled His promises to Israel to send the Messiah which they promptly rejected as a heretic. So When the invited guests rejected Gods invitation for salvation He invited those who were previously relegated to the outer darkness as heathens and pagans, the Gentiles of the World. And they/we accepted it and the label of Christians was adopted and applied to us.

    But Christianity is nothing more than the completed plan of God for salvation for the World. Gentile and Jew alike.

  10. #25
    Archangel Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripskar View Post
    Pretty big "if"...
    Not at all. You can confidently bet your soul on His reality as the God of all of time and space, the beginning and the end.

    Your "problem", that you wish to be something more than "just an animal" does not affect the reality.
    I am more than just an animal and in that I do have evidence. My God said let us make man in our image, in Our image We will make him. We describe God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The trinity which makes up the Godhead.

    We too are a trinity as human beings as we have a body, a soul, and a spirit through which our God can indwell us. Because we are made in his image we reflect His character traits of love, compassion, joy, sorrow, generosity and all of the other attributes we possess that animals don't. We reason, plan, design and have hopes as well as desires that go beyond what we can see and feel at any given moment. We have an imagination that has allowed us to create the capabilities through machines that replace those natural abilities I believe Adam and Eve possessed through the spoken word before their Fall from Grace in the Garden of Eden.

    The great flaw in evolution that is an inconsistency of monumental proportions is the fact that although you evo's claim that only man evolved to the degree that we did because only we saw the need to, it's ridiculous to claim or believe that after the alleged hundreds of millions of years of all animal life evolving side by side, and competing for the same vegetation or prey, struggling against the same social and environmental pressures, that only in MAN were our creative juices of imagination, creativity and Social cooperation that led to sharing responsibilities, trading goods and writing laws to protect each other awakened while every other animal on Earth is still just an animal.

    And don't you dare tell me I don't understand evolution or I wouldn't say this because evo has no answer for this dilemma no matter how deeply you look. There is absolutely no excuse that NO other animal from any other branch or species of life has evolved in at least a similar way that man has in regards to actual creativity and the ability to reason through planning and by using their imaginations that allowed them to live by other than pure instinct, which after the so called hundreds of millions of years that we have been evolving, they are still living by.

    Why ? because they were created that way, and not hundreds of millions of years ago at all.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
    I am more than just an animal and in that I do have evidence. My God said let us make man in our image, in Our image We will make him. We describe God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The trinity which makes up the Godhead.
    Ah, so blind faith is evidence now.

    Here's a little quote that says it very nicely:

    "The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of reason."
    - Benjamin Franklin

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
    We too are a trinity as human beings as we have a body, a soul, and a spirit through which our God can indwell us. Because we are made in his image we reflect His character traits of love, compassion, joy, sorrow, generosity and all of the other attributes we possess that animals don't. We reason, plan, design and have hopes as well as desires that go beyond what we can see and feel at any given moment. We have an imagination that has allowed us to create the capabilities through machines that replace those natural abilities I believe Adam and Eve possessed through the spoken word before their Fall from Grace in the Garden of Eden.

    The great flaw in evolution that is an inconsistency of monumental proportions is the fact that although you evo's claim that only man evolved to the degree that we did because only we saw the need to, it's ridiculous to claim or believe that after the alleged hundreds of millions of years of all animal life evolving side by side, and competing for the same vegetation or prey, struggling against the same social and environmental pressures, that only in MAN were our creative juices of imagination, creativity and Social cooperation that led to sharing responsibilities, trading goods and writing laws to protect each other awakened while every other animal on Earth is still just an animal.

    And don't you dare tell me I don't understand evolution or I wouldn't say this because evo has no answer for this dilemma no matter how deeply you look. There is absolutely no excuse that NO other animal from any other branch or species of life has evolved in at least a similar way that man has in regards to actual creativity and the ability to reason through planning and by using their imaginations that allowed them to live by other than pure instinct, which after the so called hundreds of millions of years that we have been evolving, they are still living by.

    Why ? because they were created that way, and not hundreds of millions of years ago at all.
    You don't understand evolution.
    Emotions are expressed by animals. Capacity to plan; Lions/Chimpanzees hunting behaiour. Tool use as seen in Chimpanzees, several monkey species and a number of birds.
    Environmental conditions are not universal, either in time or space and therefore the evolutionary pressures on populations change from site to site and time to time. Or do you compete for grass with sheep, cows, horses etc.?

    The factors you refer to (Writing & trading) were developed after the last glaciation following the adoption of agriculture which produced a surplus and thus the capability for trade and development of civilisation.
    Why pray when you can Google?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
    First of all, my God is the God of Israel.
    Begging the question: You assume there is that God in the first place. The Hindus say your God doesn't exist. You would say theirs don't. Who's right?

    Yahweh is the Creator of all that is and Jesus who is the stone that the builder (Israel) rejected, became the cornerstone of our faith.
    Or you could be mistaking another God for such actions...Oh Noes! I must think about my religion instead of just blindly spouting off! oh Noes!!!!

    God simply fulfilled His promises to Israel to send the Messiah which they promptly rejected as a heretic.
    Well you would reject someone who failed to meet the most basic criteria. Would you hire a artist as a IT technician? No. Likewise Jesus failed to meet the criteria that was laid out in the Jewish Prophecies. Therefore He ain't the Messiah. But if we're going to say that Jesus who failed to meet the Criteria is the Messiah because we want to, why we can't we say that Muhammad was the Jesus Messiah? Since actually basing what they did with what it said they would do doesn't matter, why can't I call OTTO the Jewish Messiah?

    But Christianity is nothing more than the completed plan of God for salvation for the World. Gentile and Jew alike.
    You haven't proven anything other then your own intolerant Dogma and absolute refusal for belief examination.

    You COMPLETELY failed to prove anything other then your own ignorance in the religion thread about proving one's belief, what makes you think you could do it here?
    "You are, of course, free to make your own calls on how much rationality you want to impose upon yourself." - Kronus

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripskar View Post
    You don't understand evolution.
    Emotions are expressed by animals. Capacity to plan; Lions/Chimpanzees hunting behaiour. Tool use as seen in Chimpanzees, several monkey species and a number of birds.
    Environmental conditions are not universal, either in time or space and therefore the evolutionary pressures on populations change from site to site and time to time. Or do you compete for grass with sheep, cows, horses etc.?
    BUT THE SKILLS THEY POSSSS TODAY ARE PRECISELY AND EXACTLY THE SAME AS THEY WERE AN ALLEGED MILLION YEARS AGO. Why haven't they evolved anymore in the past alleged million years ? If evolution is at play why haven't they become any more sophisticated today than they were over the past 10 million years ? Science has proven that animals are BORN with instinctual knowledge where as children must be trained in the ways of life.

    How else do you explain certain species abandoning their young at birth ? Oh wait, we don't want to even ask questions that conflict with our brainwashing do we.

    The factors you refer to (Writing & trading) were developed after the last glaciation following the adoption of agriculture which produced a surplus and thus the capability for trade and development of civilisation.
    Oh balderdash!!!!!!!!! So you're admitting that although we have been evolving for the last 200 million years or so, only in the past 10,000 years have we become social interdependent creatures who learned that living together and sharing social responsibilities was the most efficient way to survive when we have fossil evidence of lions, for example living in Prides and hunting as a pack for as far back as lions go. And the same applies to Wolves, elephants, and migrating birds who live in flocks.

    But you say this about Man because strangely enough we have no reliable archeological evidence that goes back beyond 10,000 years that shows we even existed. So obviously according to the very flexible science of evo that simply tries to fill the gaps, that must be how it is. Like I said, a nice fairy tale this story of evolution.

  15. #30
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    Chimpanzees learn how to hunt from their parents, learn how to make tools from their parents. They are more sophisticated than they were 10 million years ago, 5 million years ago they were the same species as us, Our common ancestry diverges about 4 million years ago.

    Species abandon their young at birth? Differing survival strategies you mean?
    Invest a huge amount of time and resources in a few offspring or produce swarms and hope some survive?

    As the Ecology alters so the conditions for survival change. Climate change is a major factor in this as forests advance or retreat, deserts grow or are reclaimed. AS the world warmed up after glaciation civilisation began at 4 points on the globe at about the same point in time. This happened because the conditions were favourable at that point and not before.

    We have perfectly verifiable archaeological sites going back to the Olduvai Gorge, we see the development of stone tools from simple to complex.
    The development of representative art from Cro-Magnon Man 30,000 years ago or is Lascaux's authenticity not up to the standards of jewish scribbles?
    Why pray when you can Google?

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