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Thread: Democracy in Afghanistan

  1. #1
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    Democracy in Afghanistan

    In spite of what leadership tells the US public, circumstances in Afghanistan continue to deteriorate. Five years of US and then NATO military occupation have only increased Afghanistan resentment of being an occupied country:

    http://www.boston.com/news/world/asi...to_us_led_war/


    The NATO military viewpoint of Afghanistan:

    http://www.forbes.com/business/comme...ap3074771.html

    Why are we still there?
    These are my principles. If you don't like them I have others. ~Groucho Marx~

  2. #2
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    Give it another 4 years and Nato will be gone.

    Canada will likely leave due to political issues within 2-3 depending on the next Canadian election
    Admittedly, the concept of the Straussian text is one susceptible to intellectual mischief in the form of wild claims about the esoteric meaning of texts, not to mention rather off-putting for anyone who doesn’t like know-it-all elites.
    Orthodox Judaism, not to mention other religions: there is a small number of men who know the detailed truth; the masses are told what they need to know and no more

  3. #3
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    German Jets in Southern Afghanistan.

    German Jets in Southern Afghanistan. Ground Forces to follow them?


    Hello, strangers! My best regards from Germany! I want to start a debate over a changing situation in the Middle East. Firstly, I would like to give voice to my opinion and say that America is likely to change its immediate plans for Iran and will first strike the talibs who are concealing themselves in western Pakistan.

    First sign to this was given after Washington apparently cooled relations with Islamabad. US top ranking officials stated that the US would cut financial backing of Pakistani government as Pakistan is suspected of supporting the Taliban. Besides that, US and allied troops (British and Latvian troops among them) will be redeployed from Iraq to southern Afghanistan.

    I only regret that Chancellor Angela Merkel was too dough-face as she succumbed to persuasions of Washington and sent our Tornado jets to patrol in southern Afghanistan. In this respect I absolutely agree with the saying of German opposition Left Party leader Oskar Lafontaine. He said "The administration is doing everything it can to get Germany directly involved in the war in Afghanistan. This path puts German soldiers' lives in danger and brings terrorism into the country". I fear that after we showed a lack of determination we will have to move on and relocate our troops to southern Afghanistan as well and take part in a war against "Pakistani" talibs.

  4. #4
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    If people had any real knowledge about the military history of Afghanistan they would realise that we should get the hell out of there now before it's too late.
    History has the nasty habit of repeating itself. For example look at the current British occupation of Helmand province. In July 1880 an entire British brigade was utterly destroyed, by an enemy which was described by military intelligence at the time as 'Talibs'. The destroyed brigade was posted in *drum roll* Helmand province.

    If the Russians couldn't hold Afghanistan with 100.000 men and with the authority to kill and torture at will, there is no way in hell that we can hold the country with only 30.000 men.
    Eh, what's this? A Republican from Texas that actually makes sense and can speak English?

    http://www.ronpaul2008.com/html/Issues_fx.html

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamehuis View Post
    If people had any real knowledge about the military history of Afghanistan they would realise that we should get the hell out of there now before it's too late.
    History has the nasty habit of repeating itself. For example look at the current British occupation of Helmand province. In July 1880 an entire British brigade was utterly destroyed, by an enemy which was described by military intelligence at the time as 'Talibs'. The destroyed brigade was posted in *drum roll* Helmand province.

    If the Russians couldn't hold Afghanistan with 100.000 men and with the authority to kill and torture at will, there is no way in hell that we can hold the country with only 30.000 men.
    That was different. They were BAD guys, we are GOOD guys, and if the damn afghanis don't get that, we will torture them and ship them off to Gitmo until they wise up.
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

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    Fancy that. German fighter jocks flying British jet fighters.

    Hey Daewoo, did the USSR have anything similar to Gitmo that they actually used in the 1980s for Afghani prisoners?
    "You are, of course, free to make your own calls on how much rationality you want to impose upon yourself." - Kronus

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    Quote Originally Posted by obvious_child View Post
    Fancy that. German fighter jocks flying British jet fighters.

    Hey Daewoo, did the USSR have anything similar to Gitmo that they actually used in the 1980s for Afghani prisoners?
    As far as I know, the russians just detained them without trial and tortured them in country. The saw no need to ship them halfway around the world to do it.
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

  8. #8
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    Peoples Dying for... Food!

    Peoples Dying for... Food!

    Hello! Did any of you happen to think what's going to be the most horrid fate for the humankind? No, it is not global terrorism that stands the threat to most planet's population, but starvation! Yes, it's starvation! The population of the planet Earth is growing rapidly and we have reached the moment when we cannot produce enough food to subsist ourselves, especially after we began to use croplands to grow oil seed rape to process into bio fuel. So what's the solution of this difficulty? It looks like the US has arrived at a very nonroutine decision – wipe out certain nations from the surface of Earth. For example, the news got about not long ago that the US has engineered a deadly virus that selectively strikes the genome of people who belong to certain target population groups. Besides that, having proclaimed a crusade against terrorism, under this guise America is shelling countries of the so-called "axis of evil" – Iraq and Afghanistan (Iran is to follow) with DU weapons. FYI, DU stands for depleted uranium that causes growth of oncological diseases among children and results in infertility, which leads to slow depopulation in those countries. A dismal fact, isn't it? What is also grievous, the US has involved its European allies in executing its devilish plan...

  9. #9
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    Food is just one of these guys' problems. Anyone who knows the history of this unfortunate 'country' knows that, and this is the most important thing to consider when anybody talks to you about Afghanistan, since pretty much the late 80s, Afghanistan has not been, and is not, a 'country' in what we in the west would term a 'nation state'.

    Such a situation is just meaningless over there; I've been doing a lot of research on this just for my own enlightenment. What first needs to be understood in the 'politics' of central asia.

    Since the original 'great game' of the 17&1800s, much of central Asia has been a game of Risk played by outside powers. The rise and fall of Soviet Russia in the region was just a mentionable C20th chapter in the ongoing saga of this vast region.

    What we have now is an area that extends from Iran in the west to China in the east, and Pakistan in the south to present-day Russia in the north. None of this area is even remotely under the auspices of a 'nation' as we know the term in the West.

    What you have are regional military powers based out of large cities, which include the wartorn remnants of national military infrastructure, combined with thousands of militias who control the townships, provinces, trade routes and transport hubs. None of these guys owe any allegiance to anyone, least of all each other. It's most reminiscent of the Roman Empire after it started to fragment, except there's never been an empire.

    In response to the OP; I genuinely doubt that the Afghans are resentful of our occupation in the same way that the Iraqis are; you know why? Because the vast majority of them don't even understand what the US is...all they know is their tribe, their land and their people. All they know the US as is a bogeyman 'from across the sea' who threatens them.

    This region of the world has seen nothing but violence and Islam for at least 30 years, more in most places. There has been no education, no guardianship of accumulated knowledge, no knowledge at all in fact that has been passed on from one generation to the next. With the exception of the very rich and the families who have inherited power, the people of these regions exist in much the same state in terms of global knowledge as all our ancestors did around a thousand years ago.

    The idea that we can effect any kind of change there is laughable. There are governments that our governments can strike deals with, and there are militaries that our militaries can parley with, but in terms of the general populace, the 'people' of Afghanistan don't even know what you mean when you say the country's name; they only know their family, their tribe, their locale and their cultural peculiarities. 'Unifying' or 'pacifying' the region means absolutely nothing to them because they have been fragmented beyond the comprehension of Western minds by their history.

    Interestingly, once this is absorbed as historical fact, the growth of Al-Qaeda is easy to understand, and equally its organisation (such as it is) and modus operandi equally so.

    I hate to bring science fiction into a real-world debate, but I believe the analogy is genuine, from what I have read over the years; We (the West) are a galaxy-spanning empire with well-defined borders and sociopolitical demarcations, attempting to subdue an unruly planet (the central Asian region) which is as diverse and as divided as our own.

    If anyone can tell me what they think 'victory' would actually look like for us in this corner of the world I would be happy to begin a hypothetical debate, but in terms of reality, we lost the fight centuries ago. We are an elephant stamping on a termite's nest, with all the analogies that that entails.
    "It is impossible to understand reality without the use of mathematics"

    - Richard Feynman

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liminus View Post

    If anyone can tell me what they think 'victory' would actually look like for us in this corner of the world I would be happy to begin a hypothetical debate, but in terms of reality, we lost the fight centuries ago. We are an elephant stamping on a termite's nest, with all the analogies that that entails.
    Great analysis with a good conclusion.

    Isn't it interesting that, when the Afghans fought the Russians (which was the USSR's Vietnam), those whom we now call the Taliban were then called the Mujahadeen Freedom Fighters.

    The US needs to wake up to the realization that these folks may not be a nation is the way we in the West perceive of that word, but they will fight to the last man to keep any nation from their territory.

    Once again, the leadership of the USA shows how ignorant of history it really is.
    Last edited by chester; 07-24-2008 at 02:46 PM.

  11. #11
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    USA supports terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan secretly!

    This revelatory announcement of speaker Islam Majlis of Iran didn’t come as revelation for me. It’s clear by naked eye that Americans need wars in these countries like air ‘cause they are seeking their own aims in those wars! I guess Britain has been well informed about this and her patience has just come to the end at last. UK has recently decided to shorten its contingent in Iraq. I seems that Gordon Brawn preferred to keep his lops sealed regarding the real reason behind the move. Imo it was the same motive of the Japanese step as well. They knew and they refused to send troops to Afghanistan! I think that Americans are making a stake at new Europeans and new post soviet democracies which will send troops to war for US support! Pitiful enough that Washington thinks that other allies from Italy and Germany and Canada and other have got just one-eye. They continue sending new tropes into Iraq and Afganistan!

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    Thumbs up df

    Art is the stored honey of the human soul, gathered on wings of misery and travel. (Theocore Dreser, American novelist)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntiFa View Post
    This revelatory announcement of speaker Islam Majlis of Iran didn’t come as revelation for me. It’s clear by naked eye that Americans need wars in these countries like air ‘cause they are seeking their own aims in those wars! I guess Britain has been well informed about this and her patience has just come to the end at last. UK has recently decided to shorten its contingent in Iraq. I seems that Gordon Brawn preferred to keep his lops sealed regarding the real reason behind the move. Imo it was the same motive of the Japanese step as well. They knew and they refused to send troops to Afghanistan! I think that Americans are making a stake at new Europeans and new post soviet democracies which will send troops to war for US support! Pitiful enough that Washington thinks that other allies from Italy and Germany and Canada and other have got just one-eye. They continue sending new tropes into Iraq and Afganistan!
    You're a conspiracy theorist. Obama will pull out the troops. You wait and see, Iraq and Afghanistan will fall under the control of terrorist organizations quickly, and there will probably be another 9-11.

    You're a conspiracy theorist and a waste of bandwidth.
    My imaginary friend left me. He said his other friends didn't believe in me.

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  14. #14
    JPSartre12 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by fghi001 View Post
    Art is the stored honey of the human soul, gathered on wings of misery and travel. (Theocore Dreser, American novelist)
    Picked the wrong forum, buddy. This is the maim and kill forum.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by chester View Post
    Great analysis with a good conclusion.

    Isn't it interesting that, when the Afghans fought the Russians (which was the USSR's Vietnam), those whom we now call the Taliban were then called the Mujahadeen Freedom Fighters.

    The US needs to wake up to the realization that these folks may not be a nation is the way we in the West perceive of that word, but they will fight to the last man to keep any nation from their territory.

    Once again, the leadership of the USA shows how ignorant of history it really is.
    I know you posted this long ago, but this is post of yours so ignorant I can't just leave it.

    How is flying planes into buildings and killing hundreds "freedom fighting?" How is detonating a bomb strapped to yourself in a public marketplace full of civilians freedom fighting? How is it freedom fighting to raid schools and hospitals in Israel and Britain? And especially, I'd like to know how the attack on the school in Beslan was freedom fighting. So raping female teachers and students is freedom fighting? You support bad causes, comrade.

    They are terrorist organizations from independant countries. What they want isn't freedom. They want a global Islamic government, and if you don't want that, they'll kill you.
    My imaginary friend left me. He said his other friends didn't believe in me.

    Spending our way out of the recession is like drinking our way out of alcoholism.

    "My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
    ~ Thomas Jefferson

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