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Thread: French vote

  1. #1
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    French vote

    So what happens now?

    Crisis?

    Second Referendum for the "right" result?

    An actual real debate on the future of Europe? (fat chance)

    Ratification process?
    "Wise men talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something."
    -- Plato

    "The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion."
    -- Thomas Paine

  2. #2
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    I think the vote showed 2 things. First, you cannot put a 500 page document up for an up or down vote. That was just stupid. They drafted the thing like it was going to be the end all....all the rules rolled into one and voted on by the masses. In 500 pages, EVERYBODY is going to find stuff they like and stuff they don't, and what peopel tend to remember is what they dislike, not what they like.

    I think they need to go back to the drawing board and come up with something about 2 pages long. Then they can go back to their people and tell them the truth...."We are all going to be screwed in 10 years if we do not manage to form a coalityion with cheap labor nations"

    The other thing I think this displays pretty well is how disconnected the politicians and businessmen are from your joe on the street. ratification got wide support from politiicans and busnessmen, but failed at the street level. I can't help but wonder if this is becuase politicians and the power elite in Europe play the same "Everything is OK, there is no reason to be alarmed" game that they play here in the US.

    Maybe they need a series of commercials to explain things better. I rememebr there used to be a commerical on Tv that showed an egg. They said "this is your brain". The egg was cracked and put in a frying pan. Thye said "this is your brain on drugs....any quesitons". They could use the same format. "This is france with the EU.........."
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

  3. #3
    fracas Guest
    they need to revise and simplify the proposed constitution. as is, it is an abomination.

  4. #4
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    On one level I was glad. On another this will just give excuses to blame America for all their problems. Some left-wing publication will undoubtedly tell us the CIA fixed the election.

    I doubt if much will change.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by fracas
    they need to revise and simplify the proposed constitution. as is, it is an abomination.
    Agree entirely. The purpose of a constitution is to lay out a basic framework. They are not supposed to be over 450 pages long.
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

  6. #6
    fracas Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo
    Agree entirely. The purpose of a constitution is to lay out a basic framework. They are not supposed to be over 450 pages long.
    the beauty of the american constitution is that it can fit inside your pocket, so that most citizens know it well enough to claim "Its my constitutional rights ..." for what ever reason, or this new law is not constitution. Would an average european be able to do the same with any certainty?
    damn thing is written by bureaucrats and should be flushed (at the risk of Euro riots) and a new one writen.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by fracas
    the beauty of the american constitution is that it can fit inside your pocket, so that most citizens know it well enough to claim "Its my constitutional rights ..." for what ever reason, or this new law is not constitution. Would an average european be able to do the same with any certainty?
    damn thing is written by bureaucrats and should be flushed (at the risk of Euro riots) and a new one writen.
    And they might even want to take the U.S. Constitution as their guide. They could (and probably will) do far worse. But Europeans are so "sophisticated" and worldly wise they will want to reinvent the wheel. This time, however, they made it square.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule
    And they might even want to take the U.S. Constitution as their guide. They could (and probably will) do far worse. But Europeans are so "sophisticated" and worldly wise they will want to reinvent the wheel. This time, however, they made it square.
    Sure, that would be a great idea, except that the US constitution does not apply to a confederation of independant nations, essentially looking for trade ties, at all.

    Have you read the US constitution? It sets up our government. President, congress, judicial branch, etc... Since absolutly nothing in our basic constitution applies to the situation at hand, they will probably not use it as a guide.

    Do you know what the EU is??
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

  9. #9
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    The reason the document is so large is because there are so many competing interests in the EU. The only way any of the Leaders of EU nations would sign the bloody thing is if they could point to a section and say to their citizens that 'We won this section, despite Insert Nation Here that you Hate(e.g. the French) so this constitution is a victory for our Nation'

    The problem is that since each nation has a section that they managed to negotiate into the Treaty then is easy for the voters to find a section in the document that they could use as a reason to vote against it.

    There are several reasons why there was 'Non' vote in France, these include a vote against the unpopular Chirac, a vote by Right Wingers against the possibility of Turkey entering the EU and the Socialists voting 'no' because the treaty enshrine Free Market Principles in EU.

    My personal opinion is that if it ever came to a vote for the treaty in my Country is that I would probably vote 'no'. I would vote 'no' for the same reason that the Socialists in France.
    Is there for honest Poverty
    That hings his head, and a' that;
    The coward-slave, we pass him by,
    We dare be poor for a 'that!
    For a ' that and a' that,
    Our toils obscure, and a 'that,
    The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
    The Man's the gowd for a 'that.

    A Man's A Man for A' That - Rabbie Burns

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule
    On one level I was glad. On another this will just give excuses to blame America for all their problems. Some left-wing publication will undoubtedly tell us the CIA fixed the election.

    I doubt if much will change.
    So far the leftist explanation of the failiure of the french vote has been that the constitution is far to neo-liberal and the EU project is elitistic and too far removed from the people. I think you will find that the majority of those who voted no on the constitution are socialists or communists. I don`t see why these people would claim that CIA fixed an election that was "succesful" from their perspective...

    Personaly, I`m glad france rejected the whole thing. The clauses dealing with the free market was far to liberal, and the clauses dealing with social developments and unemployment where virtually non-existant. IMO, it was too neo-liberal...
    Knowledge is power. Hide it well.

  11. #11
    fracas Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo
    Sure, that would be a great idea, except that the US constitution does not apply to a confederation of independant nations, essentially looking for trade ties, at all.
    the EU is not even a confedeation of independent states. while it may paint itself as such, the rules and laws of the EU is setting itself up as a centralized government imposing its standards accross the european states.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by fracas
    the EU is not even a confedeation of independent states. while it may paint itself as such, the rules and laws of the EU is setting itself up as a centralized government imposing its standards accross the european states.
    It`s a mix between the two... Allthough I would say that it is still far more of a confederation than a central authority. How it will turn out in the future is another question though.
    Knowledge is power. Hide it well.

  13. #13
    fracas Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie
    It`s a mix between the two... Allthough I would say that it is still far more of a confederation than a central authority. How it will turn out in the future is another question though.
    It is taking a confederation approach to being created, but once born, it will seek and act as a central authority.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by fracas
    It is taking a confederation approach to being created, but once born, it will seek and act as a central authority.
    That is the goal for some, yes. But not necessarily the path that will be chosen. The French no on the constitution is an indication that the political forces and movements that doesn`t want a european central authority is still strong and kicking.
    Knowledge is power. Hide it well.

  15. #15
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    Do you guys think this is a great victory against the forces of the Neo-Liberalism and the free market ?

    Is this also an indication of the rise of the Left in France again ?
    Is there for honest Poverty
    That hings his head, and a' that;
    The coward-slave, we pass him by,
    We dare be poor for a 'that!
    For a ' that and a' that,
    Our toils obscure, and a 'that,
    The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
    The Man's the gowd for a 'that.

    A Man's A Man for A' That - Rabbie Burns

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