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Thread: Creation...

  1. #16
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    Considering that just about everything being discussed in this forum has probably been discussed ten times over in previous threads, maybe aside from Freedom's constantly evolving terminology, we really don't have much to talk about if we consider such old threads.

  2. #17
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    Evolution a purpose in election?

    Your question is a very good question. I'm not sure if you know anything about the study of soteriology (more specifically election... AKA predestination), but it could be that God created what is perceived as evidence for evolution for purposes of election.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theophilus View Post
    Your question is a very good question. I'm not sure if you know anything about the study of soteriology (more specifically election... AKA predestination), but it could be that God created what is perceived as evidence for evolution for purposes of election.
    As soteriology is the study of salvation I see no reason to bring it into this thread.

    And planting false evidence would be your god being deceptive I can't imagine he would that, just to XXXX with us; do you?

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larni View Post
    As soteriology is the study of salvation I see no reason to bring it into this thread.

    And planting false evidence would be your god being deceptive I can't imagine he would that, just to XXXX with us; do you?
    Honestly, I haven't put much thought into the idea I proposed, but try to follow my thinking...

    1. Evolution is used by Satan to deter people from believing in God.
    2. If predestination is the way God selects believers, then maybe evolution is a tool that from Satan, God uses in his purpose for the selection of believers.

    I don't know that I agree with my own statement, but it is an interesting thought. At least to me.
    "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?' On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? -Romans 9:19-21 (NASB)

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theophilus View Post
    Honestly, I haven't put much thought into the idea I proposed, but try to follow my thinking...

    1. Evolution is used by Satan to deter people from believing in God.
    2. If predestination is the way God selects believers, then maybe evolution is a tool that from Satan, God uses in his purpose for the selection of believers.

    I don't know that I agree with my own statement, but it is an interesting thought. At least to me.
    If predestination is the way God selects believers, then all of existence is a pointless game he created for no real purpose, since he has always already known how it would turn out.

    In fact, it likely makes God an evil being: Why make all those poor souls that will be damned even come about in the first place? What possible value could there be in creating some people just to make them suffer for eternity? That's a pretty horrific vision of God!

    And how do you know that it's not creationism that is a tool from Satan? I mean, if we're just going to speculate with no more grounding than that.

    And heck, isn't the anti-Christ supposed to be someone who will seem to do God's work? How come Ken Ham or Philip Johnson or Bill Dembski can't be the anti-Christ?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    If predestination is the way God selects believers, then all of existence is a pointless game he created for no real purpose, since he has always already known how it would turn out.

    In fact, it likely makes God an evil being: Why make all those poor souls that will be damned even come about in the first place? What possible value could there be in creating some people just to make them suffer for eternity? That's a pretty horrific vision of God!

    And how do you know that it's not creationism that is a tool from Satan? I mean, if we're just going to speculate with no more grounding than that.

    And heck, isn't the anti-Christ supposed to be someone who will seem to do God's work? How come Ken Ham or Philip Johnson or Bill Dembski can't be the anti-Christ?
    It may help to look at election in this way (wow, i almost wrote evolution )... God is deserving of all glory. In fact, because God is ultimate perfection, He seeks to glorify himself. Because humans are not God, we are not deserving of his Glory. In order for God to demonstrate His glory, through his characteristic of justice, He allows us to go to Hell. However, another characteristic of his Glory is that he is merciful. In His mercy He chooses some to be saved and with him in Heaven. Thus two of His characteristics are being glorified (mercy and justice).
    "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?' On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? -Romans 9:19-21 (NASB)

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theophilus View Post
    It may help to look at election in this way (wow, i almost wrote evolution )... God is deserving of all glory. In fact, because God is ultimate perfection, He seeks to glorify himself. Because humans are not God, we are not deserving of his Glory. In order for God to demonstrate His glory, through his characteristic of justice, He allows us to go to Hell. However, another characteristic of his Glory is that he is merciful. In His mercy He chooses some to be saved and with him in Heaven. Thus two of His characteristics are being glorified (mercy and justice).
    And as I've already pointed out, this notion that God needs to glorify himself smacks of narcissism on a cosmic scale. Why would God in any way need -- or even want -- to demonstrate his glory? He's God: he knows how glorious he is! Isn't that enough?

    And again, as already pointed out, I don't find arbitrary salvation of an undeserving few to be merciful, nor do I find arbitrary damnation of an undeserving many to be just. The Calvinist vision of God strikes me as a celestial tyrant.

  8. #23
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    It is very difficult to manifest an image of God as both all loving and omnipotent, let alone perfect. Someone had a good signature quote, can't remember who - but it basically stated the mutually exclusive nature of the aspects people like pin on God.

  9. #24
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    God is made in man's image, not the other way around, with all the human flaws and inconsistencies that that entails. He's jealous, wants praise, loves, orders mass executions, etc. Everyone (I hope!) admits there are billions of stars, solar systems, galaxies, etc.... yet there's supposedly some invisible omniscient being needlessly equipped with legs, opposable thumbs, a penis, underarm hair, and other apparati useful only to earth-dwelling bipeds, who despite having a milliard other galaxies to occupy his attention is overtly concerned with my sex life. Oh, yes, and who himself was created by... WHO? WHAT?

    Look, all that was fine when we were stupid agrarians trying to make sense of things 2000 years ago, but yikes guys, let's put childish things away and grow friggin up. I can't believe this mythology is so persistent that otherwise intelligent people still believe this twaddle to the point of trying to impose it legislatively on a scientifically sophisticated, technologically advanced populace. GROW UP! You live! You die! Do what you can to make things better! Use your frickin brain! Make the most of your present life instead of calling people names and assuming you'll rule in the Afterlife, 'cause you're gonna be in for a sad surprise, and you'll have wasted it!
    McKown's Law: "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike."

    "We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know"
    --Dietrich Bonfhoeffer

    "I don't go to mythical places with strange men." -- Douglas Adams

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWriteLA View Post
    God is made in man's image, not the other way around, with all the human flaws and inconsistencies that that entails. He's jealous, wants praise, loves, orders mass executions, etc. Everyone (I hope!) admits there are billions of stars, solar systems, galaxies, etc.... yet there's supposedly some invisible omniscient being needlessly equipped with legs, opposable thumbs, a penis, underarm hair, and other apparati useful only to earth-dwelling bipeds, who despite having a milliard other galaxies to occupy his attention is overtly concerned with my sex life. Oh, yes, and who himself was created by... WHO? WHAT?

    Look, all that was fine when we were stupid agrarians trying to make sense of things 2000 years ago, but yikes guys, let's put childish things away and grow friggin up. I can't believe this mythology is so persistent that otherwise intelligent people still believe this twaddle to the point of trying to impose it legislatively on a scientifically sophisticated, technologically advanced populace. GROW UP! You live! You die! Do what you can to make things better! Use your frickin brain! Make the most of your present life instead of calling people names and assuming you'll rule in the Afterlife, 'cause you're gonna be in for a sad surprise, and you'll have wasted it!
    The notion that reality is subjective can be applied to any culture and any level of scientific sophistication.
    You would have a far better prospect in trying to stop the tide from coming in.
    Maybe you will be more successful than Canute
    Richard Dawkins quote..
    .'I dont think its a very important question whether Jesus existed. Some historians.. MOST historians think he did.
    I dont really care, precisely because its petty. Maybe I've alluded to the possibilty that some historians think Jesus never existed. I take that back Jesus existed........

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWriteLA View Post
    God is made in man's image, not the other way around, with all the human flaws and inconsistencies that that entails. He's jealous, wants praise, loves, orders mass executions, etc.
    You'd love to prove that, wouldn't you? But the fact is the earliest Biblical accounts say you're full of hot air on God being made in man's image.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWriteLA View Post
    Look, all that was fine when we were stupid agrarians trying to make sense of things 2000 years ago, but yikes guys, let's put childish things away and grow friggin up. I can't believe this mythology is so persistent that otherwise intelligent people still believe this twaddle to the point of trying to impose it legislatively on a scientifically sophisticated, technologically advanced populace. GROW UP!
    You know, just because you're spiritually challenged doesn't mean you can froth at the mouth like you just did and expect people to buy into it.

    You think you're a smart person. Yet with all your supposed smarts you've never been able to put a single dent into falsifying the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. I'll be glad to entertain your finest argument showing the Gospels are in error, but I'm afraid all we've seen from you is just more hot air. So either put up or shut up.
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easyrider View Post
    ... you've never been able to put a single dent into falsifying the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. I'll be glad to entertain your finest argument showing the Gospels are in error, but I'm afraid all we've seen from you is just more hot air. So either put up or shut up.
    We can't prove Grendel wasn't based on mans interaction with Neanderthals either. The fact is, 99% of the time, when someone isn't brainwashed as a child into believing what the Bible tells us - that Jesus came back to life and ascended to heaven, that God carved a bunch of tablets and gave them to Moses etc etc, then these stories are very unbelievable due to the simple fact that they are unlikely to be true based on, well, just about everything.

    They were written way after the fact and probably handed down through generations and at least some of the stories were probably conveyed verbally.

    They have been endlessly edited by the church which had a known agenda. The focus of these edits was to cast in image of infallibility on the church, God, Jesus etc. so that it could remain in control.

    Meanwhile, the church was destroying thousands of other books that were in existence at the time, many which would have contained information relevant to the life of Jesus. They would have been destroyed because they showed him to be a man. But they missed some

    Basically, my point is that you are buying into a centuries old lie and are a fool to believe it. Its probably not your fault - I'm sure your parents brainwashed you as a child. It's so easy to make a child believe anything you want him to, isn't it?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theophilus View Post
    Evolution is used by Satan to deter people from believing in God.
    Now, this is were I get confused. Xians everywhere accept ToE as the best explanation for bio-diversity; so this notion seems to actually against what most Xians believe..

    As I said I'm confused.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theophilus View Post
    Honestly, I haven't put much thought into the idea I proposed, but try to follow my thinking...

    1. Evolution is used by Satan to deter people from believing in God.
    2. If predestination is the way God selects believers, then maybe evolution is a tool that from Satan, God uses in his purpose for the selection of believers.

    I don't know that I agree with my own statement, but it is an interesting thought. At least to me.
    Or, it could be 'evolution is the tool that God used to create man'
    ‎"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." — Isaac Asimov

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larni View Post
    Now, this is were I get confused. Xians everywhere accept ToE as the best explanation for bio-diversity; so this notion seems to actually against what most Xians believe..

    As I said I'm confused.
    It's hard to imagine that actual grown up people believe that dreck. That kind of thinking is something that can be easily explained by evolution. It's a side effect of living in social groups, your brain is hard-wired to understand and obey a hierarchy. It's simply an extension of that into the supernatural. They are a victims of their own primitive nature but are not allowed to understand that.

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