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Thread: Free Will: No Strings Attached

  1. #1
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    Free Will: No Strings Attached



    What does it mean to make a "choice"? Is a choice merely the inevitable result of a set of circumstances, or is it something more? Something beyond reason and logic, beyond physical and mental guidance and constraints; in a word, "supernatural"?

    "Free Will", for those who rely upon the term to absolve their chosen god of setting people up for failure in their choices of heaven or hell, must be defined as a will that is perfect in its course of direction, as well as completely unaffected by ignorance, personal faults, or any other possible obstacles that could negatively deter the agent from making the right choice in determining his/her ultimate, eternal existence in the hereafter. No lesser alternative is acceptable, for the blame of a faulty will inevitably traces back to the all-knowing, all-capable God who made it in the first place knowing that it would fail, as He designed.

    A choice of infinite consequence can only be fairly entrusted to an agent that is suitably responsible for it, one that is infinitely capable of making the right decision. Anything less would not be suitable. In fact, if any factor affects a person's will to result in the making of a wrong choice, be it external (environment, circumstance) or internal (knowledge, mental configuration), then that will cannot be described as being suitable to take on the task.

    In regards to the existence of "free will", my opinion on the matter stands as this. To put it simply, everything happens for a reason, or a multitude of reasons, which in turn makes other things happen, creating more reasons for more happenings, ad infinitum. Hard determinism is the only sensible philosophical position to take on this matter, or any other. There is no other possible rational alternatives one can take; indeed, the very basic concept of a truly free will must transcend any and all wordly ideas. It cannot be explained, and it cannot be reasoned. Its function cannot even be imagined.


    Possible rebuttals, with answers:

    -

    R: It is infinitely easy to decide to bend over for Jesus! Clearly mankind is perfectly suited to handle this.

    A: Considering this has been an ongoing struggle for over two thousand years, I'm going to have to say no, it is not, and no, we are not. Whatever it is that dissuades others from taking your path, it is a long-lived force to be reckoned with, one that today is guaranteeing more than half the population of the world will be going to hell.

    If you want to say that Satan tricks people, then that proves that mankind does not have a will that is free. Theirs is a will that can be manipulated by forces outside of their volition.

    If you've ever tried to convince someone to take your path, then that proves you do not believe in free will, for you are attempting to alter the direction of a person's will that is supposed to be "free", even if that turn is objectively for the better.

    -

    R: If people don't have free will, then we would all be doing the same things as each other; we'd be personally identical robots.

    A: Consider a man's will as one ball of several being rolled down a slanted board filled with obstacles. Depending on the placement of the ball, it might roll down to strike a couple of sticks, eventually being knocked down a path leading into a bucket. Another ball, placed elsewhere, will hit a spinning board that throws it wildly off-course, far flung from the previous ball's path to eventually rest in a box. Point being, the differences in our decisions are made by these different circumstances we've been placed into. We're born in different places, which leads us to experience different things, leading us to different ends.

    The obstacles represent every factor, internal and external, environment and mind, that guides the courses of our choices; the courses of the balls.

    -

    R: If there is no free will, then that means people cannot be blamed for their actions. Likewise, they cannot be praised either.

    A: Guess not. I really don't care.

    The only reason why moral responsibility as we know it exists is to curb agents from committing acts considered reprehensible, and vice versa. It has no bearing on whether a person who does so was ever in a position to do otherwise.

    The world is fd enough that if it turns out the people who commit evil could only ever do the evil they commit, and as such stood totally blameless, I honestly wouldn't feel any worse for it. We're already sitting at rock bottom.


    I don't expect this first post alone to nail subject in the bud. I'll be replying to the responses in this thread to help further illustrate my meaning.

    So come set my wayward will straight, boys. God is depending on you.
    Last edited by Apostle; 03-15-2013 at 11:42 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apostle View Post


    What does it mean to make a "choice"? Is a choice merely the inevitable result of a set of circumstances, or is it something more? Something beyond reason and logic, beyond physical and mental guidance and constraints; in a word, "supernatural"?

    "Free Will", for those who rely upon the term to absolve their chosen god of setting people up for failure in their choices of heaven or hell, must be defined as a will that is perfect in its course of direction, as well as completely unaffected by ignorance, personal faults, or any other possible obstacles that could negatively deter the agent from making the right choice in determining his/her ultimate, eternal existence in the hereafter. No lesser alternative is acceptable, for the blame of a faulty will inevitably traces back to the all-knowing, all-capable God who made it in the first place knowing that it would fail, as He designed.

    A choice of infinite consequence can only be fairly entrusted to an agent that is suitably responsible for it, one that is infinitely capable of making the right decision. Anything less would not be suitable. In fact, if any factor affects a person's will to result in the making of a wrong choice, be it external (environment, circumstance) or internal (knowledge, mental configuration), then that will cannot be described as being suitable to take on the task.

    In regards to the existence of "free will", my opinion on the matter stands as this. To put it simply, everything happens for a reason, or a multitude of reasons, which in turn makes other things happen, creating more reasons for more happenings, ad infinitum. Hard determinism is the only sensible philosophical position to take on this matter, or any other. There is no other possible rational alternatives one can take; indeed, the very basic concept of a truly free will must transcend any and all wordly ideas. It cannot be explained, and it cannot be reasoned. Its function cannot even be imagined.


    Possible rebuttals, with answers:

    -

    R: It is infinitely easy to decide to bend over for Jesus! Clearly mankind is perfectly suited to handle this.

    A: Considering this has been an ongoing struggle for over two thousand years, I'm going to have to say no, it is not, and no, we are not. Whatever it is that dissuades others from taking your path, it is a long-lived force to be reckoned with, one that today is guaranteeing more than half the population of the world will be going to hell.

    If you want to say that Satan tricks people, then that proves that mankind does not have a will that is free. Theirs is a will that can be manipulated by forces outside of their volition.

    If you've ever tried to convince someone to take your path, then that proves you do not believe in free will, for you are attempting to alter the direction of a person's will that is supposed to be "free", even if that turn is objectively for the better.

    -

    R: If people don't have free will, then we would all be doing the same things as each other; we'd be personally identical robots.

    A: Consider a man's will as one ball of several being rolled down a slanted board filled with obstacles. Depending on the placement of the ball, it might roll down to strike a couple of sticks, eventually being knocked down a path leading into a bucket. Another ball, placed elsewhere, will hit a spinning board that throws it wildly off-course, far flung from the previous ball's path to eventually rest in a box. Point being, the differences in our decisions are made by these different circumstances we've been placed into. We're born in different places, which leads us to experience different things, leading us to different ends.

    The obstacles represent every factor, internal and external, environment and mind, that guides the courses of our choices; the courses of the balls.

    -

    R: If there is no free will, then that means people cannot be blamed for their actions. Likewise, they cannot be praised either.

    A: Guess not. I really don't care.

    The only reason why moral responsibility as we know it exists is to curb agents from committing acts considered reprehensible, and vice versa. It has no bearing on whether a person who does so was ever in a position to do otherwise.

    The world is fd enough that if it turns out the people who commit evil could only ever do the evil they commit, and as such stood totally blameless, I honestly wouldn't feel any worse for it. We're already sitting at rock bottom.


    I don't expect this first post alone to nail subject in the bud. I'll be replying to the responses in this thread to help further illustrate my meaning.

    So come set my wayward will straight, boys. God is depending on you.
    Everybody right now has the free will option of choosing Jesus Christ for salvation, or rejecting him. So if folks wind up in Hell that's on them. And if a person has never heard about God / Jesus, then they will be judged fairly according to what we read in Romans chapters 1 and 2.

    Jesus is Lord. Don't leave earth without him, or you're royally screwed.
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easyrider View Post
    Everybody right now has the free will option of choosing Jesus Christ for salvation, or rejecting him. So if folks wind up in Hell that's on them. And if a person has never heard about God / Jesus, then they will be judged fairly according to what we read in Romans chapters 1 and 2.

    Jesus is Lord. Don't leave earth without him, or you're royally screwed.
    So, if you go round telling people about Jesus, you are condemning them. They could have been judged fairly on their merits, but because they now 'know the truth' they will be judged purely on whether they believe or not.

    Sure sounds like justice to me!!!!
    Religion is the placebo of the masses - House.
    If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people - House.
    God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance - Neil deGrasse Tyson.
    That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. - Christopher Hitchens.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by smiley View Post
    So, if you go round telling people about Jesus, you are condemning them. They could have been judged fairly on their merits, but because they now 'know the truth' they will be judged purely on whether they believe or not.

    Sure sounds like justice to me!!!!
    Like I said, if you reject Jesus, you're royally screwed for all eternity. Your decision. Trying to blame others for your screw-up is typical liberal drivel. Man up.
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easyrider View Post
    Everybody right now has the free will option of choosing Jesus Christ for salvation, or rejecting him. So if folks wind up in Hell that's on them.
    LMFAO! You don't even see the contradiction in what you said do you? Oy vez!!!
    How to make yourself look a fool in one sentence....

    (P.S. worshiping only has 1 p not 2.)
    --johnson--.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easyrider View Post
    Like I said, if you reject Jesus, you're royally screwed for all eternity. Your decision. Trying to blame others for your screw-up is typical liberal drivel. Man up.
    So it is judgement purely on belief then, as I said. Believing axe murderers get in (presumably they have to repent on their death bed), whereas non-believing charity workers burn for eternity. Good old christian justice.
    Religion is the placebo of the masses - House.
    If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people - House.
    God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance - Neil deGrasse Tyson.
    That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. - Christopher Hitchens.

  7. #7
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    Alright, alright, let's try to keep this constructive. Seek to explore and contemplate, rather than insult and admonish. We might all actually learn something.

  8. #8
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    Another thing that confuses me about this 'free will' thing is . . .

    If you are god and trying to create a nice, loving species that will thrive and rule over a planet that you have also created, why give your first couple of this species 'free will' yet no knowledge of the morality of their actions. They could go round murdering, raping, or stealing yet not realise that these actions are bad. Likewise they could love, care and nurture, yet have no knowledge of the positive nature of their actions. Surely, this is not what one would call a good plan.
    Religion is the placebo of the masses - House.
    If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people - House.
    God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance - Neil deGrasse Tyson.
    That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. - Christopher Hitchens.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by smiley View Post
    So it is judgement purely on belief then, as I said. Believing axe murderers get in (presumably they have to repent on their death bed), whereas non-believing charity workers burn for eternity. Good old christian justice.
    You're too stupid to be saved.

    As the Bible says, "ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD." That includes your stiff-necked welfare workers. And you.
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by smiley View Post
    Another thing that confuses me about this 'free will' thing is . . .

    If you are god and trying to create a nice, loving species that will thrive and rule over a planet that you have also created, why give your first couple of this species 'free will' yet no knowledge of the morality of their actions. They could go round murdering, raping, or stealing yet not realise that these actions are bad. Likewise they could love, care and nurture, yet have no knowledge of the positive nature of their actions. Surely, this is not what one would call a good plan.
    <Flush>

    Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

    When are you going to repent of your stiff-necked rebellion against Christ?
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easyrider View Post
    You're too stupid to be saved.

    As the Bible says, "ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD." That includes your stiff-necked welfare workers. And you.
    No answer then. I'll take that as an admission that I was correct.
    Religion is the placebo of the masses - House.
    If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people - House.
    God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance - Neil deGrasse Tyson.
    That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. - Christopher Hitchens.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easyrider View Post
    <Flush>

    Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

    When are you going to repent of your stiff-necked rebellion against Christ?
    No answer then. I'll take that as an admission that I was correct.

    Would anyone else like to give some light to my query, as it is a reasonable question?
    Religion is the placebo of the masses - House.
    If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people - House.
    God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance - Neil deGrasse Tyson.
    That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. - Christopher Hitchens.

  13. #13
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    Is the phrase "free will" ever actually mentioned in the bible?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apostle View Post
    Is the phrase "free will" ever actually mentioned in the bible?
    The phrase "will free" are there, and the word "freewill" is also there. Can't find "free will" though. But I am no expert in the original text, so it may just be something in the translation.
    Religion is the placebo of the masses - House.
    If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people - House.
    God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance - Neil deGrasse Tyson.
    That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. - Christopher Hitchens.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by smiley View Post
    No answer then. I'll take that as an admission that I was correct.
    Horse manure. You have a better plan than free will let's see it.
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

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