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Thread: China Proves Gun Control Works

  1. #1
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    China Proves Gun Control Works

    China has school attacks too, but far fewer deaths, gun control works

    On December 14th 2012, two schools on different sides of the world were attacked by men wielding weapons. In one, 22 children were injured but none died; in the other, 27 young boys and girls were killed*. The difference? The second killer had a gun, the first didn't.

    A spate of attacks on schools in China began in March 2010 and carried on into 2011. Given the recent attacks in Guangxi and and Henan this year, I think it's fair to say the 'spree' has continued. However, in all those attacks, knives or other edged-weapons were used. As Andrew Sullivan points out, there were a total of 21 fatalities in all of the Chinese attacks over a two year period (24 if you include the attacks in 2012). The recent shooting in Newtown, Connecticut alone left at least 27 people dead.

    The root causes behind such attacks or rampages are largely the same in both China and the US: stress, depression, anxiety, and, most of all, shamefully poor mental health care. All of these factors should and must be treated, but we can't get away from the fact that the vast difference in the respective deaths toll is based on one factor alone, gun control.

    Commentators in the US and elsewhere will hold up the tragedy in Henan and use it to say "See, these attacks happen everywhere", and indeed, the potential for massacres, attacks, and rampages of the sort that happened in Henan and Newtown is inherent in every society. But societies which allow their citizens easy access to firearms, of any type, are placing their citizens at a far higher risk of death and injury than those that do not.
    China has school attacks too, but far fewer deaths, gun control works: Shanghaiist

    Some people are finally getting it.

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    As per usual Brady your statement is devoid of genuine facts and instead attempts to compensate with purely emotional rhetoric.

    The laws of the nation of China have proven nothing with regard to the nation of America with any regard. Mass shootings continue to occur in locations where firearm control laws are considerably strict. There is a school shooting in the nation of Germany almost annually despite the strict nature of their laws. In recent history there have been mass killings in states such as California and New York as well as other acts with weapons that were prohibited from ownership.

    As it currently stands it is a criminal offense for any person other than police officers to possess firearms on school grounds. Those violating the law are subject to arrest and felony conviction and a lifetime prohibition from over possessing firearms again. This is a prohibition that is absolute in nature and yet it does not appear to deter those bent on committing murder.

    The basis of your argument is that a legal and constitutionally protected practice must be ended in order to try and prevent an illegal activity. This argument has been made many times before and the populace responsible for electing congressional officials are growing tired of hearing the same tired arguments.

    For a period of twenty two years the nation of America has had the policy of prohibiting the carrying of weapons on school grounds. And in those twenty two years there have been more mass killings on school grounds than there have been in the prior ninety years before the policy. You and your group have had twenty two years to show that your ideas work and instead the direct opposite has been presented. That would suggest it is time to reconsider whether the policy has been of any beneficial use or not.

    The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence already ranks the firearm control laws of the state of Connecticut as strict in nature due to the necessity to obtain a permit and be fingerprinted upon application, fourteen day waiting periods and prohibitions on the ownership of certain semi-automatic firearms, amongst other various laws. Various organizations have assured the people that such standards would help keep the public safe from mass killings and criminal events. Perhaps those were not promises at all but rather lies.

    For what reason do you and others of the Brady Campaign object to teachers being enabled to carry concealed weapons for the purpose of protecting the children that they teach? They are already registered and certified with the various school boards and trusted sufficiently to be left alone with children and do not possess criminal records. What argument do you have against the concept.

    Furthermore a comparison between the nation of China and the nation of America is not an exercise in intellectual dishonesty. The nation of China practices totalitarian programs that restrict human rights to a degree the organization Amnesty International condemns. Basic freedom of speech is nonexistent. Ideas that run counter to the government are forbidden and kept from the people. Bloggers are forced to register their real identities with the government. Government mandated abortions and forced sterilizations are reported as a common practice. And the death penalty is fully enforced and quite popular to the point that they employ mobile execution vehicles for the purpose of efficiency. Prior to this they engaged in the use of public lynchings and firing squads. It has been suggested by critics of the program that the switch over was due to the ability to facilitate organ harvesting from the condemned rather than any concern for a humane death.

    As you have stated in your own message the state of health care in China is lacking, both mental and physical. This fact is exemplified by the state order massacre of some fifty thousand dogs in response to three people dying from rabies and the high number of suicides along with the low number of psychological experts. Those that were injured in the multiple school attacks in China will not recover from traumatic injury simply because a knife was used rather than a firearm. Those injured will carry physical and mental scars and likely suffer serious physical complications later in life. The possibility of cross-contamination from blood-borne illnesses can also not be discounted and those that survived being stabbed or bisected may now face infection by diseases that the health care in China cannot cure or treat.

    Is it your desire for the nation of America to become like the nation of China with regard to its views on human rights due to what is a raw nerve issue? Emotional outrage is not a justified reason for discussing the implementation of news laws in response to an unforeseen and shocking incident.
    Last edited by Xenamnes; 12-15-2012 at 01:35 PM.
    If one cannot have an argument without resorting to hyperbole, name calling and emotional rhetoric, then they have lost the argument from their first post.

  3. #3
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    Brady in each respect X is right.Yes China had a school knifing spree?if the person was determined enough as in CT.and used a machete it would have turned out differently
    same as if the shooter in CT. had used one if he was unable to get a hold of a firearm.

    Imagine what the scene would have been like then.Someone with no remorse going after little kids,any child killed is bad enough,but you can't even imagine how much worse it would have been.And it was bad enough as it is.

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    How many did McVeigh kill? 168 and he didn't use a gun, how many did terrorists kill on 9/11 3,000 and they didn't use guns either. I can just imagine how many would have perished if Adam Lanza had used a bomb instead of a gun? This is the same argument you used Brady and the perp in China could have also used a bomb in stead of a knife.
    http://www.weaponscache.com/forum/

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    Quote Originally Posted by TRIGGER View Post
    How many did McVeigh kill? 168 and he didn't use a gun, how many did terrorists kill on 9/11 3,000 and they didn't use guns either. I can just imagine how many would have perished if Adam Lanza had used a bomb instead of a gun? This is the same argument you used Brady and the perp in China could have also used a bomb in stead of a knife.
    Very good point,however Brady will have a good counter for it.In his own mind.

    Hmmm Fertilizer Control? And they could put Eric Holder in charge of it, since he seems to know what he's doing.Guess he could be in charge of Bomb Control to.Will he is always dropping big sh*t bombs.ROTFLLMFAO.

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    Actually Brady the best way to control homicides is not through gun control because that would effect less than half of the homicides. Obama should through executive order suspend the 4th and 14th amendments and require everyone submit to psychological testing so we can then identify the psychos and add them to the gun ban list. This would also allow law enforcement to do random searches for contraband like illegal drugs, illegal guns or search felons for guns. They could search gang terrorized neighbor hoods for drugs and guns. Oh and we could force expectant mothers to submit to amniocentesis to scan for genetic markers for mental illness and then we could force the women to abort those fetus oh and may be there is a way to scan for future rapists, child molesters, serial killers and other criminals. Brady this would be faster than gun control since it would show immediate results.
    http://www.weaponscache.com/forum/

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    It cannot be discounted that the individual who is responsible was diagnosed as autistic and regarded as friendly, outgoing and intelligent. If autism was involved it is not a stretch to assume he was on medication to treat his condition. Medication for mental disorders is far from perfect and the commercials for them warn that the side effects can be worse than the condition they are supposed to treat.

    It is not out of the realm of possibilities that the incident in Connecticut may have been the result of a psychotic episode occurring from whatever prescribed medication may have bee present at the time.
    If one cannot have an argument without resorting to hyperbole, name calling and emotional rhetoric, then they have lost the argument from their first post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenamnes View Post
    It cannot be discounted that the individual who is responsible was diagnosed as autistic and regarded as friendly, outgoing and intelligent. If autism was involved it is not a stretch to assume he was on medication to treat his condition. Medication for mental disorders is far from perfect and the commercials for them warn that the side effects can be worse than the condition they are supposed to treat.

    It is not out of the realm of possibilities that the incident in Connecticut may have been the result of a psychotic episode occurring from whatever prescribed medication may have bee present at the time.
    I don't believe Autism is a mental illness, I believe it is a developmental disorder. There is absolutely no link between Autism and violent behavior such as this. Further, you wouldn't necessarily have medication for autism.

    This is why the media blows a$$. They say he had autism and now everyone thinks people with autism go on violent rampages. Autism has as much to do with this as his hair color.

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    I think this could be a turning point in gun control policy. President Obama had tears in his eyes as he addressed the nation about this horrible tragedy. I think this mass shooting is more upsetting to most people than others because most of the victims were young children. President Obama has said before that he supports renewing the assault weapons ban. According to CNN, the killer used an AR-15 which I understand is a version of the M-16 assault rifle used in the military. We also need more affordable treatment for mentally disabled people with violent tendencies. As I understand, you have to be arrested and charged with a crime before the government will consider providing such treatment.
    "Indeed, not a word in the constitutional text even arguably supports the Courtís overwrought and novel description of the Second Amendment as 'elevat[ing] above all other interests' 'the right of law-abiding, responsible citizens to use arms in defense of hearth and home.' Ante,at 63."
    -Justice Stevens on the Heller ruling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
    I think this could be a turning point in gun control policy.
    To date no one has come forth with a gun control policy that would lower violent crime. All you hear about is ban this or ban that yet we haven't seen an instance where a ban has helped. You had Piers Morgan on the other day saying "look what Australia did". Australia did massive gun restrictions and the result was the violent crime going down at the same rate it was before the ban...so no effect. In the UK homicides kept going UP after the handgun ban...so nothing there either.

    Perhaps it is time to think outside the box, like finding ways to better educate children, improve family relationships, and help those who are seen as social misfits.

    So instead of making yourself feel good by banning assault weapons maybe we should actually help with problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
    I think this could be a turning point in gun control policy.
    The same has been said about previous mass shootings. However the immediate aftermath of a disturbing event when emotions run high is not the proper time to discuss what should be done national policy concerning anything. Those that want immediate action are too short sighted to be concerned with the long term effects that may be had in the name of making themselves feel emotionally better.

    The voting public is outraged. However the public has seen how policies prohibiting weapons have failed to reduce deaths. As has been said before the policy of prohibiting teachers and principals from being armed has been in place for twenty two years now. And in those twenty two years there have been more mass killings in school zones than there have been in the prior ninety years of the twentieth century. What needs to be done is not looking to expand existing policies but rather reexamine them with a critical eye and ask why they have not been beneficial.

    President Obama had tears in his eyes as he addressed the nation about this horrible tragedy.
    That is of no relevance to the discussion. It is not difficult for someone to produce false tears for the purpose of selling a performance. Politicians are known for selling an image to the masses thus making them more akin to actors.

    I think this mass shooting is more upsetting to most people than others because most of the victims were young children. President Obama has said before that he supports renewing the assault weapons ban.
    Under Connecticut law the rifle that was used in the shooting was a prohibited firearm. Like several other states Connecticut prohibits the ownership of semi-automatic firearms that it categorizes as being "assault weapons".

    It is also worth noting that the original Columbine incident occurred during the federal ban on such weapons and was carried out with firearms that were prohibited under the law. Weapons that were supposed to be regulated under the National Firearms Act of 1934 were also used during that time by individuals that were federally prohibited from firearms ownership in the first place.

    According to CNN, the killer used an AR-15 which I understand is a version of the M-16 assault rifle used in the military.
    That is incorrect. The AR-15 and the M-16 share a similar appearance but they are not the same type of firearm in terms of function. This point has been made before in the past.

    We also need more affordable treatment for mentally disabled people with violent tendencies. As I understand, you have to be arrested and charged with a crime before the government will consider providing such treatment.
    Are you suggesting government should have the authority to mandate and enforce the medicating of individuals who have done nothing wrong and do not present a credible threat to themselves or others, on nothing more than the basis of them having been diagnosed with a mental health condition?

    As others have noted autism is not characteristically linked to violent behavior on the part of those who are afflicted with it. However medication designed to treat mental disorders have been known to cause suicide, episodes of intense violence and other side effects that are considerably worse than the disorder they are supposed to be treating. It cannot be ruled out that the elementary school shooting may have occurred due to the provided treatment.
    Last edited by Xenamnes; 12-16-2012 at 09:52 PM.
    If one cannot have an argument without resorting to hyperbole, name calling and emotional rhetoric, then they have lost the argument from their first post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
    I think this could be a turning point in gun control policy. President Obama had tears in his eyes as he addressed the nation about this horrible tragedy. I think this mass shooting is more upsetting to most people than others because most of the victims were young children. President Obama has said before that he supports renewing the assault weapons ban. According to CNN, the killer used an AR-15 which I understand is a version of the M-16 assault rifle used in the military. We also need more affordable treatment for mentally disabled people with violent tendencies. As I understand, you have to be arrested and charged with a crime before the government will consider providing such treatment.
    Actually the M-16 is a version of the AR-15 only burst fire and full auto with a different twist to the rifling.I know apples and oranges just saying is all.

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    An awful lot of inconsistencies, about three hours ago I was sitting out back having a smoke and thought about Columbine and the one thing they were big on showing was the shooters on security cameras then I realized they hadn't showed any let alone even mentioned it.
    So I sat down and started looking and was coming up empty until this.Sherrie Questioning All Apparently they (the school)have cameras.No footage? Perhaps they were caught off guard and are scrambling to make the most of a terrible thing?All the sudden the .223 Bushmaster has center stage when originally it was in the car.Hard to confuse that with a shotgun. Any bets on security tapes showing up after they have thoroughly analyzed them?

    It's terrible what happened but even worse in a way the Obamalites are trying to turn it to their advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenamnes View Post
    As others have noted autism is not characteristically linked to violent behavior on the part of those who are afflicted with it. However medication designed to treat mental disorders have been known to cause suicide, episodes of intense violence and other side effects that are considerably worse than the disorder they are supposed to be treating. It cannot be ruled out that the elementary school shooting may have occurred due to the provided treatment.
    It is also been pointed out that Autism is not a mental disorder as of the latest revision in the DSM V. People with autism are not necessarily on medication as there is no medication to treat autism. Some people with autism are on anti-depressants but this has nothing to with the developmental delay caused by autism. In other words, there is no one unique medication that people with autism may take to treat core symptoms/causes of autism.

    We're gonna find out that this kid was just messed up in the head and society did a sh*t job of helping it. We spend so much time trying to suppress reality that things like this happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steeeeve View Post
    It is also been pointed out that Autism is not a mental disorder as of the latest revision in the DSM V. People with autism are not necessarily on medication as there is no medication to treat autism. Some people with autism are on anti-depressants but this has nothing to with the developmental delay caused by autism. In other words, there is no one unique medication that people with autism may take to treat core symptoms/causes of autism.

    We're gonna find out that this kid was just messed up in the head and society did a sh*t job of helping it. We spend so much time trying to suppress reality that things like this happen.
    The contrary is not being argued. It is merely being pointed out that there are a number of variables present that must be discussed. The discussion cannot be limited exclusively to the weapons that were used.

    However in order to have an intelligent and open discussion about the matter it will be necessary to delve into territory that is considered to be politically incorrect. The shooter had a developmental disorder, came from a broken home with divorced parents and had no work ethic as the custodial parent was economically well off to the point of not needing to have a job while at the same time regularly going out to various bars for drinks.
    If one cannot have an argument without resorting to hyperbole, name calling and emotional rhetoric, then they have lost the argument from their first post.

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