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Thread: Survival / Doomsday Preppers

  1. #1
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    Survival / Doomsday Preppers

    A thread to discuss survival issues, knives / tools, emergency food and water supplies, medical supplies, guns, ammo, shelters, etc., etc. that would be used in case of emergencies (hurricanes, tornadoes, nuclear war, major earthquakes, Marshall Law, solar flares and EMP, biological attacks, etc).

    Here's some links to start:

    Doomsday Preppers

    Doomsday Preppers | National Geographic Channel

    Emergency Food Supplies

    Wise Food Supply

    101 Survival Gear Supplies

    101 Survival Gear Supplies
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

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    When things go bad and the water is shut off and people are hungry, they're going to start looking for food and, if hungry enough, start breaking down doors and hurting people to get what they want.

    Two things they'll face right away if they break into my place to commit violence or theft are these:

    Remington 870 12-Gauge, 7 round Shotgun

    http://www.cabelas.com/pump-action-r...otguns-1.shtml

    Kimber Custom Covert II .45 ACP with Laser Grips

    Kimber America | Custom Covert II

    Oohrah!
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

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    My zombie plan is to hide behind Chuck Norris.
    Morals are a religious Myth.. - Xcaliber
    How is Evil Immoral? - Xcaliber
    I am right until you prove otherwise - Xcaliber

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    There is certainly logic behind preparation for extended survival after a doomsday-esque event where standard provided services may be terminated and individuals will be left to their own devices and forced to make due with whatever they have. However the basic concept behind the show itself is lacking in basic logic.

    Those that go on the show "Doomsday Preppers" are showing the size of their stores of basic necessities for life and the size of their defensive forces and capacities for all to see. They are almost boasting about how many months or even years worth of food, water, medicine and ammunition they have on hand in a centralized location. In a world of social media where a name or picture is enough to determine one's location through a quick internet search the secrecy of their positions cannot be guaranteed.

    Those who believe they are prepared to survive an extended period of time cut off from what is referred to as the civilized world are essentially challenging others to try and take what they have by talking about how prepared they are and how many people scavengers will be facing. That is all well and fine provided the scavengers in question are small groups of unorganized hostiles who are simply bent on mindless violence. However should sizable forced be mustered and organized there is no certainty of survival. There is no certainty that a family of four may be able to fight off a force of sixty or more desperate individuals who may have access to vehicles and weapons and the willingness to do whatever it takes to survive.

    Atheists and homosexuals wish to bemoan those that subscribe to religious practices as being barbaric and foolish due to not supporting their practices. However those of significant religious conviction may suffer a crisis of conscience should they find themselves in a situation where they may be forced to kill numerous individuals whose only crime is being driven to the point of desperation through thirst, hunger or illness that they can no longer engage in reasonable thought. At what point does a religious family make the decision that a possible one hundred or more people in need deserve at survival less than they do?

    It is quite easy to claim that one is prepared for the worst. It is another matter when survival requires you to deny food to someone that may have been your best friend just a few weeks ago and emphasize that fact by turning your weapon on them.
    If one cannot have an argument without resorting to hyperbole, name calling and emotional rhetoric, then they have lost the argument from their first post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenamnes View Post

    Atheists and homosexuals wish to bemoan those that subscribe to religious practices as being barbaric and foolish due to not supporting their practices. However those of significant religious conviction may suffer a crisis of conscience should they find themselves in a situation where they may be forced to kill numerous individuals whose only crime is being driven to the point of desperation through thirst, hunger or illness that they can no longer engage in reasonable thought.
    I think most Christians understand that when it comes to protecting ones life and family, if mortal violence is required then that's what they're going to do. It's not against Biblical values to protect life. It's not murder so there shouldn't be much crisis of conscience. And if there is then they should confess the sin and the Lord will cleanse the individual of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenamnes View Post
    At what point does a religious family make the decision that a possible one hundred or more people in need deserve at survival less than they do?
    When they quit asking and start breaking down doors or threatening ones family.

    At what point does a secular-minded family make the decision that a possible one hundred or more people in need deserve survival less than they do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenamnes View Post
    It is quite easy to claim that one is prepared for the worst. It is another matter when survival requires you to deny food to someone that may have been your best friend just a few weeks ago and emphasize that fact by turning your weapon on them.
    I think people only have a few really close friends, and the rest can fend for themselves. You can feed the friends for a week or so and let them know by then they'll need to make other arrangements. In fact, it's best to let them know that in advance so there's no confusion.
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

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    Matters of religion and conscience aside the other points still remain regarding the logistics of those that take part in the show itself. They are essentially broadcasting their situation to anyone that is watching and who may be making plans for violent raids. They are showing their levels of strength and fortification, meaning those that may seek them out can plan a sufficiently sized party of like minded individuals to overwhelm them. A family unit consisting of two adults and two children can only handle an offensive force of so many for so long.

    Logically one of the best ways to be prepared for a disaster scenario is to remain low-key and not broadcast your standing or level of preparedness in a manner that anyone can become informed about it.
    If one cannot have an argument without resorting to hyperbole, name calling and emotional rhetoric, then they have lost the argument from their first post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenamnes View Post
    Matters of religion and conscience aside the other points still remain regarding the logistics of those that take part in the show itself. They are essentially broadcasting their situation to anyone that is watching and who may be making plans for violent raids. They are showing their levels of strength and fortification, meaning those that may seek them out can plan a sufficiently sized party of like minded individuals to overwhelm them. A family unit consisting of two adults and two children can only handle an offensive force of so many for so long.

    Logically one of the best ways to be prepared for a disaster scenario is to remain low-key and not broadcast your standing or level of preparedness in a manner that anyone can become informed about it.
    I agree 100%. Play like you're broke and starving. Don't give yourself away.

    Some of those doomsday shelters on TV are former Atlas missile silos, though, and they would indeed be hard to break into. Also, as former military, I could fashion a hell of a one-man defense that would literally take out hundreds, or even more. Just a matter of making your own camouflaged claymore mines, booby traps, ambush junctions, gas bombs, etc. They might be able to get me but after losing 25-50 maybe they'd wise up and go away.
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenamnes View Post
    There is certainly logic behind preparation for extended survival after a doomsday-esque event where standard provided services may be terminated and individuals will be left to their own devices and forced to make due with whatever they have. However the basic concept behind the show itself is lacking in basic logic.

    Those that go on the show "Doomsday Preppers" are showing the size of their stores of basic necessities for life and the size of their defensive forces and capacities for all to see. They are almost boasting about how many months or even years worth of food, water, medicine and ammunition they have on hand in a centralized location. In a world of social media where a name or picture is enough to determine one's location through a quick internet search the secrecy of their positions cannot be guaranteed.

    Those who believe they are prepared to survive an extended period of time cut off from what is referred to as the civilized world are essentially challenging others to try and take what they have by talking about how prepared they are and how many people scavengers will be facing. That is all well and fine provided the scavengers in question are small groups of unorganized hostiles who are simply bent on mindless violence. However should sizable forced be mustered and organized there is no certainty of survival. There is no certainty that a family of four may be able to fight off a force of sixty or more desperate individuals who may have access to vehicles and weapons and the willingness to do whatever it takes to survive
    .
    IMO a lot of the problem with most of the steps people take to prepare for that kind of thing come from their relatively limited frame of reference. A lot of the preparations are silly...especially the preparations people make to protect their homes. If you look at places where civil order has broken down (bosnia, serbia, most of africa at different times, etc..), you do not end up with the scenario that most of these preppers are preparing for....one where you can defend your home with a shotgun and pistol. Instead you end up with gangs of unpleasant people rolling around with the entire contents of whatever military armory they have managed to clean out. Sure, you can hold your house when the kid across the street comes at you with a .22 pistol, but how about when a dozen guys pull up in front in armored hummers and put grenades through your windows? For that matter, what about when the kid across the street nails your roof with a Molotov cocktail then shoots you and your family as you try to get out of the burning inferno your house has become?

    The reality is that holding a building...especially one not designed to withstand a siege with heavy weapons, is virtually impossible. Even the US military does not consider buildings to be potential strategic assets, and they have a LOT more weapons and a LOT better weapons than any "prepper" is going to have. In order to be considered "defensible" against just small arms a structure has to have brick, stone, or concrete walls (no cinder block) a minimum of 24" thick with a fireproof roof. How many houses do you know of that meets those requirements? You are actually better off in the open than in most houses because they do not provide cover, just concealment, and once you are inside you have limited escape options. In tactical training (at least mine in the army) they talked about "building a killing box and then shutting the lid". You are not supposed to be IN the killing box...the bad guy is.

    Atheists and homosexuals wish to bemoan those that subscribe to religious practices as being barbaric and foolish due to not supporting their practices. However those of significant religious conviction may suffer a crisis of conscience should they find themselves in a situation where they may be forced to kill numerous individuals whose only crime is being driven to the point of desperation through thirst, hunger or illness that they can no longer engage in reasonable thought. At what point does a religious family make the decision that a possible one hundred or more people in need deserve at survival less than they do?
    If history is any indicator, the first day. There are some exceptions. People who practice religions that do not include an afterlife (Navajo, etc...) are generally extremely reluctant to kill because they believe that they are ending you. Christians? They are just sending you on to see jesus. The bad guys are going to hell, so they have performed a public service. Any good guys who end up killed are going to heaven, so it is not that big a deal. That is why the american public did not really care about tens of thousands of civilian casualties in Iraq.


    It is quite easy to claim that one is prepared for the worst. It is another matter when survival requires you to deny food to someone that may have been your best friend just a few weeks ago and emphasize that fact by turning your weapon on them.
    You apparently don't know a whole lot of preppers. These people get excited to the point of sexual arousal imagining the day that it becomes socially acceptable to XXXX your neighbor away for a can of creamed corn.
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Easyrider View Post
    I agree 100%. Play like you're broke and starving. Don't give yourself away.

    Some of those doomsday shelters on TV are former Atlas missile silos, though, and they would indeed be hard to break into. Also, as former military, I could fashion a hell of a one-man defense that would literally take out hundreds, or even more. Just a matter of making your own camouflaged claymore mines, booby traps, ambush junctions, gas bombs, etc. They might be able to get me but after losing 25-50 maybe they'd wise up and go away.
    Actually, former atlas missile silos are only moderately hard to get into unless you have a response team on the outside to repel anybody who is assaulting the complex since they are not defensible from the inside. The early models only have 2 air intakes (3 on the later one), none of which are defensible from the inside. The launch doors are adequately armored, but the man door, maintenance accesses, and air intakes are just steel plate (4" on the man doors, 2" on the air intakes). 4" plate is a pretty easy task with a common cutting torch. Missile silos are hardened against nuclear attack. They were never designed to be defensive positions or fighting bases. In the event of a ground attack, a missile silo closes down and radios for help. If there is no help to radio for they are big coffins. Without being able to call for reinforcements, you can kill everybody in an atlas missile silo with a roll of plastic and some duck tape.

    Military installations, including missile silos, are not built for direct defense. They are not considered secure because their buildings are super strong...they are not medieval castles. They are secure because of the zone of control around them and the ability to call for support if they come under attack. Structuring your defense based on military strategy is foolish unless you are the military. This is true for both your logistical planning and your tactics. The ONLY tactic the military teaches for the kind of situation most of these people are envisioning...massively outnumbered by unfriendlies with no help available...is escape and evasion.

    As far as "just a matter of making your own claymore mines"....exactly how much C-4 do you keep around, easy? Or are you hoping that you will be able to run out and pick some up if it turns out you need some? You do realize that most of the "make your own stuff that goes boom" books you buy don't actually work...right? Even if you have lucked out and gotten one that does, do you have the chemicals on-hand to do it, and have you made a couple dozen batches and tested them? This is not TV....throwing together some claymores out of stuff you have under your sink is not going to happen. Gas bombs?? Really???? Do you have any idea how much gas you have to be able to generate in order to use it effectively in the open, or were you planning on mixing it in your bathtub and then locking all the bad guys in your bathroom? Sure...gas has been used effectively in combat, especially during WWI. In order for an open air gas attack to be successful, though, hundreds of tons of material were deployed in thousands of canisters. Were you going to whip up some sarin while you are making your C-4?

    Personally, I have access to large amounts of explosives (welcome to the quarry industry)...and a machine shop at my house...and a good deal of heavy equipment...and a gun collection that includes belt fed machine guns....and I would not count on being able to mount a one man defense that "would literally take out hundreds". Were you literally beating off when you typed that??
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post

    As far as "just a matter of making your own claymore mines"....exactly how much C-4 do you keep around, easy? Or are you hoping that you will be able to run out and pick some up if it turns out you need some? You do realize that most of the "make your own stuff that goes boom" books you buy don't actually work...right? Even if you have lucked out and gotten one that does, do you have the chemicals on-hand to do it, and have you made a couple dozen batches and tested them? This is not TV....throwing together some claymores out of stuff you have under your sink is not going to happen. Gas bombs?? Really???? Do you have any idea how much gas you have to be able to generate in order to use it effectively in the open, or were you planning on mixing it in your bathtub and then locking all the bad guys in your bathroom? Sure...gas has been used effectively in combat, especially during WWI. In order for an open air gas attack to be successful, though, hundreds of tons of material were deployed in thousands of canisters. Were you going to whip up some sarin while you are making your C-4?

    Personally, I have access to large amounts of explosives (welcome to the quarry industry)...and a machine shop at my house...and a good deal of heavy equipment...and a gun collection that includes belt fed machine guns....and I would not count on being able to mount a one man defense that "would literally take out hundreds". Were you literally beating off when you typed that??
    Why don't you and your pet tick mount your invasion and find out, rat breath.
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

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    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post

    You apparently don't know a whole lot of preppers. These people get excited to the point of sexual arousal imagining the day that it becomes socially acceptable to XXXX your neighbor away for a can of creamed corn.
    Especially if the losers are ignorant Clinton and Obama supporters who are looking for another freebie handout. When they can't get their way then they revert to the whining, selfish, savage, feral little beasts that they truly are.
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

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    Quote Originally Posted by Easyrider View Post
    Why don't you and your pet tick mount your invasion and find out, rat breath.
    That kind of what I figured...lots of big talk without the knowledge or skills to actually carry it out.
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    That kind of what I figured...lots of big talk without the knowledge or skills to actually carry it out.
    You guys have something in common then.
    Morals are a religious Myth.. - Xcaliber
    How is Evil Immoral? - Xcaliber
    I am right until you prove otherwise - Xcaliber

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    You guys have something in common then.
    Rave on, Hell-bound Christ-deniers!
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

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    A fixed position subject to limited manpower and supplies can only be sustained for so long against outside forces that cannot be determined in size and strength. A family unit of four is able to cover multiple locations and take shifts throughout the day but that will only work for so long. Standard hit and run practices designed to harm morale more than the fixed position and disrupt the rest pattens of those defending the position stand the chance of doing far more harm than the act of successfully breaching the defenses of the fixed position and allowing the outside world easy access.

    The human mind can only sustain so much stress before the subject is driven into the territory of being mentally unstable and unable to respond accordingly. In a world without the order of law siege warfare cannot be discounted as an unlikely impossibility. Those defending the fixed position will be limited to what they were able to acquire before everything went wrong and what was legally available to them. Those seeking to take the supplies of the fixed position will have access to what they were able to acquire through illegal acts. And as history has shown those who subscribe to illegal channels generally have far better equipment than those who have played by the rules.
    If one cannot have an argument without resorting to hyperbole, name calling and emotional rhetoric, then they have lost the argument from their first post.

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