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Thread: Valuing a Fetus More than a Woman...

  1. #1
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    Valuing a Fetus More than a Woman...

    “To give the unborn child — I don’t care what stage of gestation they are — preference over the woman in whom parents, teachers, society, culture has deeply invested, and say that investment has less value than a bunch of cells, is just to me an outrage,” she said in the oral history created by Smith College.
    Joan Dunlop, advocate for women's rights.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/wo...th-rights.html

    Religion turns reason and logic upsidedown and explodes into pure stupidity.
    Brother, you can believe in stones as long as you do not hurl them at me. Wafa Sultan

    “War is an American way to teach geography,” British soldier

    War is sweet to those who have not tasted it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach. – Pindar

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    A mind that is closed off to all concepts except those that it chooses to consider is a mind that is incapable of thinking logically or seeing what is beyond their limited understanding.

    Perhaps you are in favor of the abortion policies and procedures in place in the nation of China. It is not so much a matter of the fetus having rights or not, rather it is a matter of the country's government having the authority to terminate any secondary pregnancy at any stage of development while parents choose to murder their own children for being born female due to social standards and restrictions on gender.
    Last edited by Xenamnes; 07-01-2012 at 07:19 PM.
    If one cannot have an argument without resorting to hyperbole, name calling and emotional rhetoric, then they have lost the argument from their first post.

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    Define preference.
    A society that ' doesnt care ' about an unborn child( her definition) no matter 'what state of gestation they are' is not a civilised one.
    Repulsion and outrage at aborting a sentient fetus has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with being an advanced and empathic species.

    I am always repulsed by women who use unborn children as weapons against either (or both ) men or religion

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    I am always repulsed by men who think a fetus should be preserved at risk of the life of a woman.

    Are women less human than fetuses?
    Brother, you can believe in stones as long as you do not hurl them at me. Wafa Sultan

    “War is an American way to teach geography,” British soldier

    War is sweet to those who have not tasted it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach. – Pindar

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    Quote Originally Posted by simone View Post
    I am always repulsed by men who think a fetus should be preserved at risk of the life of a woman.

    Are women less human than fetuses?
    Women shouldn't kill the innocent unborn. It's a sin against God and humanity.
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

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    What do you truly know about God, ER? And, can you really think of yourself as a member of humanity when you hate more than half of it so much?
    Brother, you can believe in stones as long as you do not hurl them at me. Wafa Sultan

    “War is an American way to teach geography,” British soldier

    War is sweet to those who have not tasted it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach. – Pindar

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    Quote Originally Posted by simone View Post
    What do you truly know about God, ER? And, can you really think of yourself as a member of humanity when you hate more than half of it so much?
    I wish that all would repent and be saved in Christ. Including you.
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

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    Quote Originally Posted by Easyrider View Post
    I wish that all would repent and be saved in Christ. Including you.
    Well you know the old saying Big Easy, you can't repent if you have no soul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simone View Post
    I am always repulsed by men who think a fetus should be preserved at risk of the life of a woman.

    Are women less human than fetuses?
    Nowhere in your link did she mention a fetus being preserved at the risk of the life of the woman.
    She said' preference of the woman' which implies that the woman should be able to abort an ' unborn child'( her words) at any time for any reason.
    I wish you would actually read the XXXX that you post...XXXXX.
    You have never discussed late abortions..you just post emotional b*llsh*t that shows your hatred for all white men except misogynist democrats.
    You are pathetic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabbi View Post
    Well you know the old saying Big Easy, you can't repent if you have no soul.
    Too bad that spiritual dwarf Obama doesn't repent. But he and the rest of the pro-abortion crowd will answer for their infanticide come Judgment Day.
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

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    Quote Originally Posted by Easyrider View Post
    Women shouldn't kill the innocent unborn. It's a sin against God and humanity.
    Unless they are Canaanites or any of the other nations God commanded every man woman and child even animals be slaughtered and was upset when a few people showed some compassion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pappillion001 View Post
    Unless they are Canaanites or any of the other nations God commanded every man woman and child even animals be slaughtered and was upset when a few people showed some compassion.
    Educating Pappi:

    The “new atheists” call God’s commands to kill the Canaanites “genocide,” but a closer look at the horror of the Canaanites’ sinfulness, exhibited in rampant idolatry, incest, adultery, child sacrifice, homosexuality, and bestiality, reveals that God’s reason for commanding their death was not genocide but capital punishment. After all, the Old Testament unequivocally commands that those who do any one of these things deserves to die. Also, God made it clear in His conversation with Abraham regarding the Canaanite cities of Sodom and Gomorrah that He knows who would or would not repent, and in the case of those cities, not one person would heed the warning and even Lot’s family had to be forcibly pulled away from the coming destruction. In Leviticus 18 God then warns Israel that if they commit similar sins that the land would similarly “vomit” them out. Later when Israel disobeys God and allows the Canaanites to continue to live among them, the corruptive and seductive power of Canaanite sin results in the Canaanization of Israel. Subsequently, God sent prophets to warn Israel of their coming destruction, but they didn’t repent and God said that they became “like Sodom to me” and He visited destruction on Israel for committing the same sins. This again reveals that God’s motive isn’t genocide, but capital punishment. That we commit similar sins today renders us incapable of appropriate moral outrage against these sins and thus we accuse God of “genocide” to justify our own sinfulness.

    THE CANAANITES WERE WICKED

    The Bible is explicit concerning the sins of the Canaanites: idolatry, incest, adultery, child sacrifice, homosexuality, and bestiality. Much of what follows is horrific, but if we refuse to look, will we really understand the reasons for God’s judgment?

    Idolatry. The Canaanites worshiped other gods, which the Old Testament frequently denounced as no more than sticks or pottery made by human hands that could not “see or hear or eat or smell” (Deut. 4:28 NIV). Yahweh derided these handmade gods that cannot speak and must be carried because they cannot walk (Jer. 1:16; 8:2–5).
    The Canaanites took seriously the testimony of the Old Testament witness of Yahweh and His revelation, if for no other reason than intentionally to transform the scriptural depiction of Yahweh into a castrated weakling who likes to play with His own excrement and urine.4

    The story of Canaanite incest, adultery, child sacrifice, homosexuality, and bestiality flow out of the plot line of idolatry. The tragedy of this story is that not only is idolatry an offense to Yahweh, but it fails to supply a happy ending for human communities as well.

    Incest. Like all Ancient Near East (ANE) pantheons, the Canaanite pantheon was incestuous. Baal has sex with his mother Asherah,6 his sister Anat, and his daughter Pidray,7 and none of this is presented pejoratively.

    Although early Canaanite laws proscribed either death or banishment for most forms of incest, after the fourteenth century BC, the penalties were reduced to no more than the payment of a fine.8 In the larger ANE context, it is helpful to consider that in an Egyptian dream book dreams of having sex with your mother or your sister were considered good omens.9

    Adultery. Canaanite religion, like that of all of the ANE, was a fertility religion that involved temple sex. Inanna/Ishtar, also known as the Queen of Heaven, “became the woman among the gods, patron of eroticism and sensuality, of conjugal love as well as adultery, of brides and prostitutes, transvestites and pederasts.”10 As University of Helsinki professor Martti Nissinen writes, “Sexual contact with a person whose whole life was devoted to the goddess was tantamount to union with the goddess herself.”11

    The Canaanites even remake the God of the Bible, El, after their own image and portray Him ceremonially as having sex with two women (or goddesses). The ceremony ends with directions: “To be repeated five times by the company and the singers of the assembly.”12 About this John Gray comments, “We may well suppose that this activity of El was sacramentally experienced by the community in the sexual orgies of the fertility cult which the Hebrew prophets so vehemently denounced.”13
    Child sacrifice. Molech was a Canaanite underworld deity14 represented as an upright, bullheaded idol with a human body in whose belly a fire was stoked and in whose outstretched arms a child was placed that would be burned to death. The victims were not only infants; children as old as four were sacrificed.15 Kleitarchos reported that “as the flame burning the child surrounded the body, the limbs would shrivel up and the mouth would appear to grin as if laughing, until it was shrunk enough to slip into the cauldron.”16

    Child sacrifice. Molech was a Canaanite underworld deity14 represented as an upright, bullheaded idol with a human body in whose belly a fire was stoked and in whose outstretched arms a child was placed that would be burned to death. The victims were not only infants; children as old as four were sacrificed.15 Kleitarchos reported that “as the flame burning the child surrounded the body, the limbs would shrivel up and the mouth would appear to grin as if laughing, until it was shrunk enough to slip into the cauldron.”16

    Homosexuality. No ANE text condemns homosexuality. Additionally, some ANE manuscripts talk about “party-boys and festival people who changed their masculinity into femininity to make the people of Ishtar revere her.”17

    Let us also remember that the problem with the Canaanite city of Sodom wasn’t just sex among consenting adults: the men of Sodom, both young and old, tried to rape the visitors (Gen. 19:5).

    Killing the Canaanites | CRI

    That for starters.
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by simone View Post
    Joan Dunlop, advocate for women's rights.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/wo...th-rights.html

    Religion turns reason and logic upsidedown and explodes into pure stupidity.
    So are you agreeing with the quoted statement or not? If we value that way I'm not sure why abortion shouldn't be legal until 15 years of age and after 15 if your income is not high enough. And don't give me that sh*t about location of the baby...that's a more BS moral code than any religion out there.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easyrider View Post
    Educating Pappi:

    The “new atheists” call God’s commands to kill the Canaanites “genocide,” but a closer look at the horror of the Canaanites’ sinfulness, exhibited in rampant idolatry, incest, adultery, child sacrifice, homosexuality, and bestiality, reveals that God’s reason for commanding their death was not genocide but capital punishment. After all, the Old Testament unequivocally commands that those who do any one of these things deserves to die. Also, God made it clear in His conversation with Abraham regarding the Canaanite cities of Sodom and Gomorrah that He knows who would or would not repent, and in the case of those cities, not one person would heed the warning and even Lot’s family had to be forcibly pulled away from the coming destruction. In Leviticus 18 God then warns Israel that if they commit similar sins that the land would similarly “vomit” them out. Later when Israel disobeys God and allows the Canaanites to continue to live among them, the corruptive and seductive power of Canaanite sin results in the Canaanization of Israel. Subsequently, God sent prophets to warn Israel of their coming destruction, but they didn’t repent and God said that they became “like Sodom to me” and He visited destruction on Israel for committing the same sins. This again reveals that God’s motive isn’t genocide, but capital punishment. That we commit similar sins today renders us incapable of appropriate moral outrage against these sins and thus we accuse God of “genocide” to justify our own sinfulness.

    THE CANAANITES WERE WICKED

    The Bible is explicit concerning the sins of the Canaanites: idolatry, incest, adultery, child sacrifice, homosexuality, and bestiality. Much of what follows is horrific, but if we refuse to look, will we really understand the reasons for God’s judgment?

    Idolatry. The Canaanites worshiped other gods, which the Old Testament frequently denounced as no more than sticks or pottery made by human hands that could not “see or hear or eat or smell” (Deut. 4:28 NIV). Yahweh derided these handmade gods that cannot speak and must be carried because they cannot walk (Jer. 1:16; 8:2–5).
    The Canaanites took seriously the testimony of the Old Testament witness of Yahweh and His revelation, if for no other reason than intentionally to transform the scriptural depiction of Yahweh into a castrated weakling who likes to play with His own excrement and urine.4

    The story of Canaanite incest, adultery, child sacrifice, homosexuality, and bestiality flow out of the plot line of idolatry. The tragedy of this story is that not only is idolatry an offense to Yahweh, but it fails to supply a happy ending for human communities as well.

    Incest. Like all Ancient Near East (ANE) pantheons, the Canaanite pantheon was incestuous. Baal has sex with his mother Asherah,6 his sister Anat, and his daughter Pidray,7 and none of this is presented pejoratively.

    Although early Canaanite laws proscribed either death or banishment for most forms of incest, after the fourteenth century BC, the penalties were reduced to no more than the payment of a fine.8 In the larger ANE context, it is helpful to consider that in an Egyptian dream book dreams of having sex with your mother or your sister were considered good omens.9

    Adultery. Canaanite religion, like that of all of the ANE, was a fertility religion that involved temple sex. Inanna/Ishtar, also known as the Queen of Heaven, “became the woman among the gods, patron of eroticism and sensuality, of conjugal love as well as adultery, of brides and prostitutes, transvestites and pederasts.”10 As University of Helsinki professor Martti Nissinen writes, “Sexual contact with a person whose whole life was devoted to the goddess was tantamount to union with the goddess herself.”11

    The Canaanites even remake the God of the Bible, El, after their own image and portray Him ceremonially as having sex with two women (or goddesses). The ceremony ends with directions: “To be repeated five times by the company and the singers of the assembly.”12 About this John Gray comments, “We may well suppose that this activity of El was sacramentally experienced by the community in the sexual orgies of the fertility cult which the Hebrew prophets so vehemently denounced.”13
    Child sacrifice. Molech was a Canaanite underworld deity14 represented as an upright, bullheaded idol with a human body in whose belly a fire was stoked and in whose outstretched arms a child was placed that would be burned to death. The victims were not only infants; children as old as four were sacrificed.15 Kleitarchos reported that “as the flame burning the child surrounded the body, the limbs would shrivel up and the mouth would appear to grin as if laughing, until it was shrunk enough to slip into the cauldron.”16

    Child sacrifice. Molech was a Canaanite underworld deity14 represented as an upright, bullheaded idol with a human body in whose belly a fire was stoked and in whose outstretched arms a child was placed that would be burned to death. The victims were not only infants; children as old as four were sacrificed.15 Kleitarchos reported that “as the flame burning the child surrounded the body, the limbs would shrivel up and the mouth would appear to grin as if laughing, until it was shrunk enough to slip into the cauldron.”16

    Homosexuality. No ANE text condemns homosexuality. Additionally, some ANE manuscripts talk about “party-boys and festival people who changed their masculinity into femininity to make the people of Ishtar revere her.”17

    Let us also remember that the problem with the Canaanite city of Sodom wasn’t just sex among consenting adults: the men of Sodom, both young and old, tried to rape the visitors (Gen. 19:5).

    Killing the Canaanites | CRI

    That for starters.
    Off to a bad start then

    Just so we are clear the intentional purposeful killing of an entire race, ethnic group, nation is not called capital punishment, it is genocide. Secondly the Hebrews after robbing Egypt went into training and then attacked with the intention of conquering the closest weakest land they felt could support them. To justify this they said God gave it to them. Do you suppose if a loud voice from Heaven (like the one spoken to Jesus at his baptism) was heard by the Canaanites saying Get ye gone dwell some other place The Lord God who didn't choose you and didn't gave you tablets with llaws or provide you with instructions on how to behave is angered because you did not follow my statutes you didn't know about, they would have left and there would have been no need to kill them all.

    But that goes off in the wrong direction (I could continue to punch holes in this bad attempt to rectify the inconsistent behavior of God) You said women should not kill the the innocent unborn that it is a sin against God AND humanity. So are there circumstances where it is not a sin against God and Humanity? It seems there are according to the Bible. Since we find it acceptable to follow the various parts of the bible to varying degrees why is abortion, something not specifically covered in the Bible, taken to an extreme?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    Nowhere in your link did she mention a fetus being preserved at the risk of the life of the woman.
    She said' preference of the woman' which implies that the woman should be able to abort an ' unborn child'( her words) at any time for any reason.
    I wish you would actually read the XXXX that you post...XXXXX.
    You have never discussed late abortions..you just post emotional b*llsh*t that shows your hatred for all white men except misogynist democrats.
    You are pathetic.
    There have been cases where a woman has lingered on the verge of death because extremist religious doctors refused to save her life by aborting a life-threatening fetus before the fetus died.

    Actually, many women have died because of these extremist anti-human views.
    Brother, you can believe in stones as long as you do not hurl them at me. Wafa Sultan

    “War is an American way to teach geography,” British soldier

    War is sweet to those who have not tasted it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach. – Pindar

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