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Thread: Trayvon Martin... Another Victim of Concealed Carry

  1. #1
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    Trayvon Martin... Another Victim of Concealed Carry

    "Recently Judge Benson Everett Legg of Maryland became the first federal judge to hold there is a Second Amendment right to carry a gun outside the home. Only days before, Trayvon Martin, a Florida teenager, lay dead from a shooting that dramatically illustrates the price in lives we will pay if Judge Legg’s renegade ruling becomes the law across the United States....

    "The Supreme Court in Heller struck down the District of Columbia’s ban on the mere possession of handguns and ordered the District to permit Mr. Heller 'to register his handgun and . . . issue him a license to carry it in the home.'

    "Judge Legg’s ruling not only diverges from the holdings of other federal and state courts, but it also is in direct defiance of the federal appeals court that establishes binding law for lower court judges like him in Maryland and four other states. In a case decided one year ago, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit upheld the conviction of a defendant for possessing a loaded handgun in a motor vehicle within a national park....

    "The killing of Trayvon Martin is exactly the kind of 'unspeakably tragic act of mayhem' that arises from the right to be armed in public places. George Zimmerman, 28 years old, had obtained a license to carry concealed from the State of Florida, which has become infamous for handing out such licenses to very dangerous people. Zimmerman apparently was a neighborhood watch captain who had called police around 7:30 on the night of February 26 to report a 'suspicious person,' who turned out to be Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman was armed with a Kel -Tek 9mm semi-automatic pistol. He was told by the police dispatcher to wait for patrol officers. He ignored their counsel....

    "The full facts about this incident are still emerging. But one thing seems clear. If George Zimmerman had not been carrying a gun, it is likely Trayvon Martin would be alive today."
    Shooting of Florida Teen Shows Danger of Maryland Judge’s Renegade Ruling-- Brady Campaign Blog
    "Indeed, not a word in the constitutional text even arguably supports the Court’s overwrought and novel description of the Second Amendment as 'elevat[ing] above all other interests' 'the right of law-abiding, responsible citizens to use arms in defense of hearth and home.' Ante,at 63."
    -Justice Stevens on the Heller ruling

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    As your own article states the details regarding the Martin shooting are still emerging. This means that there are still facts that are not in evidence and a conclusion cannot be reached. It is entirely premature as well as immature to claim that Martin is "another victim of concealed carry" as there has not even been a trial yet. Zimmerman is being condemned in the same manner the Duke lacrosse players were

    A grand jury is being convened on April 10th to discuss the matter. If they choose not to indict, or Zimmerman is acquitted of the charges, then Martin cannot be "another victim of concealed carry" because he was not a victim of felony murder. Ultimately until there is a final verdict of "guilty" reached unanimously by a jury of twelve at the conclusion of a formal and organized trial Mating cannot legally be considered a victim of anything. That is how the legal system works.
    Last edited by Xenamnes; 04-01-2012 at 11:11 AM.
    If one cannot have an argument without resorting to hyperbole, name calling and emotional rhetoric, then they have lost the argument from their first post.

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    " 'Stand your ground' law goes too far

    "You can't say we weren't warned.

    "Back in 2005, opponents of Florida's first-of-its-kind 'stand your ground' law said it wouldn't be long before we'd see shootouts in the streets — all in the name of self-defense.

    "Arguments over something as trivial as exceeding the 10-item limit in a grocery store's express lane could escalate to deadly violence.

    "Prodded by their NRA masters, lawmakers waved off those predictions as exaggerations. Then they overwhelmingly passed a bill that took the 'castle doctrine' to infinity and beyond. The 'castle doctrine' used to mean you could use deadly force if someone attacked you in your home. 'Stand your ground' not only absolved the homeowner of any obligation to retreat, it extended that concept outside the home.

    "Gov. Jeb Bush couldn't sign the bill fast enough.

    "Seven years later, those warnings so casually dismissed by Bush and the Legislature are taking shape.

    "Seventeen-year-old Trayvon Martin is dead, and Central Florida is the focus of an international spectacle, quite possibly a result of Florida's politicians deciding to become the 21st century's Wild West.

    "Unfortunately, Trayvon may not be the only victim.

    "I haven't heard of any fatal disputes over the grocery check-out line, but in 2010 an unarmed man was shot and killed at a park near Tampa in a dispute over skateboarding rules. The victim's 10-year-old daughter watched her father die. A judge is currently considering whether the shooter merely stood his ground.

    "In 2008, a 15-year-old boy was killed during a shootout between two gangs in Tallahassee. Nobody was held accountable for the crime because a judge, citing the law, dismissed the charges.

    "And in January, a former Broward County sheriff's deputy shot and wounded a homeless man inside a Häagen-Dazs ice cream shop in Miami Lakes. He said the man was threatening him and his family. Police said charges were unlikely in that case as well.

    "In fact, the number of justifiable homicides has significantly increased since the law went into effect, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

    "From 2000 to 2005, an average of 13 killings by private citizens were deemed justified each year. Between 2006 and 2010 that average increased to 36 killings per year. The highest was in 2009 at 45.

    "Today, the Seminole County State Attorney's Office is reviewing whether George Zimmerman, 28, should join the growing list of justifiable homicides.

    "It makes the Brady Campaign's ads against this law back in 2005 almost seem prophetic. The campaign handed out leaflets and posted billboards warning Florida tourists to avoid fights and to 'keep their hands in plain sight' if they wind up in a disagreement.

    "Sound advice, given the number of cases where 'stand your ground' prevails.

    "Not that any of this mattered to lawmakers seven years ago when I was covering this story in Tallahassee. At the behest of the all-powerful National Rifle Association, they decided law-abiding people were facing criminal prosecution for nothing more than defending themselves or their families.

    "Turns out the NRA's best examples of these unjust cases were ones in which the charges were eventually dropped. I'd call those examples of the system working, not a chronic injustice that needed to be repaired through legislation.

    "NRA lobbyist Marion Hammer wouldn't comment about the Trayvon Martin case when I talked to her Monday. I don't blame her. There is no good way for gun proponents to spin the death of an unarmed teenager.

    "Rep. Dennis Baxley, an Ocala Republican who sponsored the original bill, said the law is still 'good public policy' but questioned whether it should apply to Zimmerman.

    " 'I think the fact that he was in pursuit does greatly compromise his argument' of self-defense, Baxley said.

    "Yet the law — at least so far — is what has kept Zimmerman out of jail.

    "Self-defense has always been an acceptable reason for police and prosecutors to dismiss charges or not bring any in the first place. Nobody wants to see someone who was genuinely in fear for their life end up in jail because they took action to protect themselves or others.

    "But there's too much latitude when those who are the aggressors are able to shoot, kill and avoid arrest and prosecution.

    "We don't know — and perhaps never will — who started the fight between Zimmerman and Trayvon.

    "What we do know is that while Florida's an East Coast state, it's looking more and more like a Wild West."
    Trayvon Martin: "Stand your ground" law goes too far - Orlando Sentinel
    "Indeed, not a word in the constitutional text even arguably supports the Court’s overwrought and novel description of the Second Amendment as 'elevat[ing] above all other interests' 'the right of law-abiding, responsible citizens to use arms in defense of hearth and home.' Ante,at 63."
    -Justice Stevens on the Heller ruling

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    "We don't know — and perhaps never will — who started the fight between Zimmerman and Trayvon.


    That admission makes a lie out of all their other claims.

    Brady still hawking blood money? (rhetorical of course!)
    Nice ad the president and ad director has with the slogan, "don't shoot me for my skittles." No shame or sense of decency at all.

    You the point man on this scam star gazer?

    "Self-defense has always been an acceptable reason for police and prosecutors to dismiss charges or not bring any in the first place. Nobody wants to see someone who was genuinely in fear for their life end up in jail because they took action to protect themselves or others."

    Pick out the truth and there isn't much left is there star gazer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
    "What we do know is that while Florida's an East Coast state, it's looking more and more like a Wild West."
    Trayvon Martin: "Stand your ground" law goes too far - Orlando Sentinel
    It has been stated several times before that the "stand your ground" law in Florida specifies that a person must be engaged in lawful activity to be protected by the law. A claim of self defense does not work if the person who engaged in the shooting or killing or another was engaged in criminal behavior.

    Simply because Zimmerman claims the shooting was in self defense does not mean that it was. His word alone will not be enough to get him off if it is determined the killing was not justified.
    If one cannot have an argument without resorting to hyperbole, name calling and emotional rhetoric, then they have lost the argument from their first post.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
    " 'Stand your ground' law goes too far

    "You can't say we weren't warned.

    "Back in 2005, opponents of Florida's first-of-its-kind 'stand your ground' law said it wouldn't be long before we'd see shootouts in the streets — all in the name of self-defense.

    "Arguments over something as trivial as exceeding the 10-item limit in a grocery store's express lane could escalate to deadly violence.

    "Prodded by their NRA masters, lawmakers waved off those predictions as exaggerations. Then they overwhelmingly passed a bill that took the 'castle doctrine' to infinity and beyond. The 'castle doctrine' used to mean you could use deadly force if someone attacked you in your home. 'Stand your ground' not only absolved the homeowner of any obligation to retreat, it extended that concept outside the home.
    Starting with a flawed premise is a sign of what?
    Stand your ground law had nothing to do with it.
    The Volokh Conspiracy Florida’s Self-Defense Laws

  7. #7
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    Galileo,

    Can you create your own argument instead of continuously parroting articles on the internet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Jones View Post
    "We don't know — and perhaps never will — who started the fight between Zimmerman and Trayvon.


    That admission makes a lie out of all their other claims.

    Brady still hawking blood money? (rhetorical of course!)
    Nice ad the president and ad director has with the slogan, "don't shoot me for my skittles." No shame or sense of decency at all.

    You the point man on this scam star gazer?

    "Self-defense has always been an acceptable reason for police and prosecutors to dismiss charges or not bring any in the first place. Nobody wants to see someone who was genuinely in fear for their life end up in jail because they took action to protect themselves or others."

    Pick out the truth and there isn't much left is there star gazer?
    Zimmerman is a predatory, stalking pervert. For the record.
    Brother, you can believe in stones as long as you do not hurl them at me. Wafa Sultan

    “War is an American way to teach geography,” British soldier

    War is sweet to those who have not tasted it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach. – Pindar

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
    "Recently Judge Benson Everett Legg of Maryland became the first federal judge to hold there is a Second Amendment right to carry a gun outside the home. Only days before, Trayvon Martin, a Florida teenager, lay dead from a shooting that dramatically illustrates the price in lives we will pay if Judge Legg’s renegade ruling becomes the law across the United States....

    "The Supreme Court in Heller struck down the District of Columbia’s ban on the mere possession of handguns and ordered the District to permit Mr. Heller 'to register his handgun and . . . issue him a license to carry it in the home.'

    "Judge Legg’s ruling not only diverges from the holdings of other federal and state courts, but it also is in direct defiance of the federal appeals court that establishes binding law for lower court judges like him in Maryland and four other states. In a case decided one year ago, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit upheld the conviction of a defendant for possessing a loaded handgun in a motor vehicle within a national park....

    "The killing of Trayvon Martin is exactly the kind of 'unspeakably tragic act of mayhem' that arises from the right to be armed in public places. George Zimmerman, 28 years old, had obtained a license to carry concealed from the State of Florida, which has become infamous for handing out such licenses to very dangerous people. Zimmerman apparently was a neighborhood watch captain who had called police around 7:30 on the night of February 26 to report a 'suspicious person,' who turned out to be Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman was armed with a Kel -Tek 9mm semi-automatic pistol. He was told by the police dispatcher to wait for patrol officers. He ignored their counsel....

    "The full facts about this incident are still emerging. But one thing seems clear. If George Zimmerman had not been carrying a gun, it is likely Trayvon Martin would be alive today."
    Shooting of Florida Teen Shows Danger of Maryland Judge’s Renegade Ruling-- Brady Campaign Blog
    Thank you. This of course only validates my argument against "open /concealed by anyone carry" as the perfect storm for innocents being murdered.
    He Lived in the Perfect Midfield Time

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by simone View Post
    Zimmerman is a predatory, stalking pervert. For the record.
    As you have made this assertation forum rules require you to provide a link to the evidence to support it. If you cannot provide evidence to back up your statement then your post is in violation of forum rules by failing to contribute anything of relevance to the discussion and being self serving in nature and a reportable offense.
    If one cannot have an argument without resorting to hyperbole, name calling and emotional rhetoric, then they have lost the argument from their first post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Thank you. This of course only validates my argument against "open /concealed by anyone carry" as the perfect storm for innocents being murdered.
    A charge of murder cannot be claimed until a trial is held and a jury determines that an act of murder has occurred. That is how the justice system operates. The concept behind the justice system in America is "innocent until proven guilty" not "guilty because we feel like it."

    On April tenth a grand jury will hear the matter and determine if Zimmerman can be indicted based on the evidence in question rather than the public outrage. If they choose not to indict then the shooting of Martin by Zimmerman will be determined as justified. If the shooting is determined as justified in nature then it will be intellectually dishonest to claim it was an act of murder or racially motivated. The same will be true if an indictment is issued but followed by an acquittal.

    Furthermore this matter does nothing to prove your claim that the general citizenry is not fit to carry their privately owned firearms for the purpose of their own personal defense. Tragedies occur every day and are a part of a free society and must be lived with as they cannot be eliminated.

    If you continue to push this idea then I will cite the cold blooded murder of sixteen civilians by a military soldier as evidence that the military and other government agents cannot be trusted to be armed.
    If one cannot have an argument without resorting to hyperbole, name calling and emotional rhetoric, then they have lost the argument from their first post.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
    " 'Stand your ground' law goes too far

    "You can't say we weren't warned.

    "Back in 2005, opponents of Florida's first-of-its-kind 'stand your ground' law said it wouldn't be long before we'd see shootouts in the streets — all in the name of self-defense.

    "Arguments over something as trivial as exceeding the 10-item limit in a grocery store's express lane could escalate to deadly violence.


    Care to show us a link showing a shootout between two or more people over exceeding the 10 item limit


    "Prodded by their NRA masters, lawmakers waved off those predictions as exaggerations. Then they overwhelmingly passed a bill that took the 'castle doctrine' to infinity and beyond. The 'castle doctrine' used to mean you could use deadly force if someone attacked you in your home. 'Stand your ground' not only absolved the homeowner of any obligation to retreat, it extended that concept outside the home.

    "Gov. Jeb Bush couldn't sign the bill fast enough.

    "Seven years later, those warnings so casually dismissed by Bush and the Legislature are taking shape.

    "Seventeen-year-old Trayvon Martin is dead, and Central Florida is the focus of an international spectacle, quite possibly a result of Florida's politicians deciding to become the 21st century's Wild West.


    Hmmmmm 1 example where we do not have all the facts about what happened nor has this even gone to trial.


    "Unfortunately, Trayvon may not be the only victim.

    "I haven't heard of any fatal disputes over the grocery check-out line, but in 2010 an unarmed man was shot and killed at a park near Tampa in a dispute over skateboarding rules. The victim's 10-year-old daughter watched her father die. A judge is currently considering whether the shooter merely stood his ground.

    Say what? So your prediction earier is nothing but a lie? A false statment. Well I for one am shocked. How about retracting this statment and making a public apology for attempting to mislead the people of the USA?


    "In 2008, a 15-year-old boy was killed during a shootout between two gangs in Tallahassee. Nobody was held accountable for the crime because a judge, citing the law, dismissed the charges.


    Was the 15 year old a gang member? If such I doubt very much he had a legal firearm and if he was involved in a shootout with another gang I hardly see how this is an example of Law abiding citizens arguing over trivial matters.


    "And in January, a former Broward County sheriff's deputy shot and wounded a homeless man inside a Häagen-Dazs ice cream shop in Miami Lakes. He said the man was threatening him and his family. Police said charges were unlikely in that case as well.


    So let me get this straight, a police officer shoots a man who was threatening his family? Police say charges are unlikely. I dont know if I could have provided a more justified shooting myself.


    "In fact, the number of justifiable homicides has significantly increased since the law went into effect, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

    "From 2000 to 2005, an average of 13 killings by private citizens were deemed justified each year. Between 2006 and 2010 that average increased to 36 killings per year. The highest was in 2009 at 45.


    Hmmmm 45 people killed by private citizens that were considered justifable. So would you rather these 45 people get assulted, raped or worse murdered to fit your agenda?


    "Today, the Seminole County State Attorney's Office is reviewing whether George Zimmerman, 28, should join the growing list of justifiable homicides.

    "It makes the Brady Campaign's ads against this law back in 2005 almost seem prophetic. The campaign handed out leaflets and posted billboards warning Florida tourists to avoid fights and to 'keep their hands in plain sight' if they wind up in a disagreement.

    "Sound advice, given the number of cases where 'stand your ground' prevails.


    Again we do not have the full facts around this case nor has he been found guilty of any crime in a court of law. The Brady Campaign sights 3 examples of "Law abiding Citizens" shooting people then claiming they got off as a result of this law. 1 case may well have involved a gang member shooting at another gang membes. One case involves a POLICE OFFICER defending not only his family but other citizens. The third case involves a case that had not gone to court and the man is still considered innocent. There are rougly 5 million gun owners in Florida and the 3 WORST examples the Brady Campaign can list of people getting off as a result of this law only one of them is yet to be decided whether or not the person is guilty before a court of law?


    "Not that any of this mattered to lawmakers seven years ago when I was covering this story in Tallahassee. At the behest of the all-powerful National Rifle Association, they decided law-abiding people were facing criminal prosecution for nothing more than defending themselves or their families.

    "Turns out the NRA's best examples of these unjust cases were ones in which the charges were eventually dropped. I'd call those examples of the system working, not a chronic injustice that needed to be repaired through legislation.


    As opposed to your 1 case that is still yet to go to court out of 5 million or so lawful gun owners?


    "NRA lobbyist Marion Hammer wouldn't comment about the Trayvon Martin case when I talked to her Monday. I don't blame her. There is no good way for gun proponents to spin the death of an unarmed teenager.


    Perhaps she refused to comment on a case where we DO NOT have all the facts and as such making a presumptuous statement on his guilt or innocence would be inapropiate given the circumstaces?


    "Rep. Dennis Baxley, an Ocala Republican who sponsored the original bill, said the law is still 'good public policy' but questioned whether it should apply to Zimmerman.

    " 'I think the fact that he was in pursuit does greatly compromise his argument' of self-defense, Baxley said.

    "Yet the law — at least so far — is what has kept Zimmerman out of jail.

    "Self-defense has always been an acceptable reason for police and prosecutors to dismiss charges or not bring any in the first place. Nobody wants to see someone who was genuinely in fear for their life end up in jail because they took action to protect themselves or others.


    WHAT? Now you are saying self defence is perfectly acceptable? Just before you were berating a POLICE OFFICER for defending his family? Which side of the fence are you sitting on?


    "But there's too much latitude when those who are the aggressors are able to shoot, kill and avoid arrest and prosecution.

    "We don't know — and perhaps never will — who started the fight between Zimmerman and Trayvon.

    "What we do know is that while Florida's an East Coast state, it's looking more and more like a Wild West."
    Trayvon Martin: "Stand your ground" law goes too far - Orlando Sentinel
    So you do not know all the facts yet you are using the death of a person as well as smearing a mans name to further your agenda?

    I hardly see how the death of 45 people the COURTS saw justified in 2009 shows that living in Florida is akin to living the Wild west.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by simone View Post
    Zimmerman is a predatory, stalking pervert. For the record.
    Maybe Zimmerman is guilty maybe not. As it has been pointed out above all the facts aren't in. Nice to see you are still in form also it would seem more informed than everyone else.How do you do it? Gotta fortune teller?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Thank you. This of course only validates my argument against "open /concealed by anyone carry" as the perfect storm for innocents being murdered.
    By anyone? Do you really believe that nonsense that the Brady Campaign puts out? What about the women walking down the street that finds herself confronted by would be rapist? Yep the perfect storm. What's more apt to save her a gun or her saying oh please kind sir don't hurt me?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenamnes View Post
    A charge of murder cannot be claimed until a trial is held and a jury determines that an act of murder has occurred. That is how the justice system operates. The concept behind the justice system in America is "innocent until proven guilty" not "guilty because we feel like it."

    On April tenth a grand jury will hear the matter and determine if Zimmerman can be indicted based on the evidence in question rather than the public outrage. If they choose not to indict then the shooting of Martin by Zimmerman will be determined as justified. If the shooting is determined as justified in nature then it will be intellectually dishonest to claim it was an act of murder or racially motivated. The same will be true if an indictment is issued but followed by an acquittal.

    Furthermore this matter does nothing to prove your claim that the general citizenry is not fit to carry their privately owned firearms for the purpose of their own personal defense. Tragedies occur every day and are a part of a free society and must be lived with as they cannot be eliminated.

    If you continue to push this idea then I will cite the cold blooded murder of sixteen civilians by a military soldier as evidence that the military and other government agents cannot be trusted to be armed.
    A charge of "murder" is calimed by both, the arresting officer and the city prosecutor.

    The rest of your blathering is just BS again.
    He Lived in the Perfect Midfield Time

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