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Thread: Newt vs. Ron Paul

  1. #1
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    Newt vs. Ron Paul

    It seems to me that now that Grouper has decided to "spend more time with his wife and family"... the race in Iowa is now between Newt and Ron Paul.
    I'd like to hear your stance and why.

    Please... no baseless accusations, flamming, or religious arguments without a point.
    "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security." - Ben Franklin
    “If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy” - James Madison
    "Those who believe absurdities can be made to commit atrocities" - Voltaire
    "What if the people wake up?" - Ron Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by USAMP1980 View Post
    It seems to me that now that Grouper has decided to "spend more time with his wife and family"... the race in Iowa is now between Newt and Ron Paul.
    I'd like to hear your stance and why.

    Please... no baseless accusations, flamming, or religious arguments without a point.
    Nah, Newt and Romney. Romney will probably get the nomination. Romney has the money - some of it Democrat money. Democrat talking points have the Democrats scared of Romney, saying they'd much prefer to face Gingrich in the general election. The opposite is true of course. Gingrich will demolish Obama in debates, and they know it.
    Why is it that our children can't read a Bible in school, but they can in prison?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marc9000 View Post
    Nah, Newt and Romney. Romney will probably get the nomination. Romney has the money - some of it Democrat money. Democrat talking points have the Democrats scared of Romney, saying they'd much prefer to face Gingrich in the general election. The opposite is true of course. Gingrich will demolish Obama in debates, and they know it.
    As a Democrat, most of the fellow Democrats I speak with are more scared of Romney than Newt - mainly because he would be far more appealing than Newt to the moderates and independents than would Newt. Newt may well give a debate performance that will inspire his base but, unless he completely changes his stripes, he will not appeal to the moderates and independents that he needs to win over in order to win the general election. So, as a Democrat, I continue to think that it would be better for Obama's chances if Newt won the Republican nomination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Another opinion
    As a Democrat, most of the fellow Democrats I speak with are more scared of Romney than Newt - mainly because he would be far more appealing than Newt to the moderates and independents than would Newt.
    Democrats may say they are more scared of Romney but this is total XXXX. Romney is more like Obama so why would moderates and independents vote for him over Obama? As we saw in 2010, a "moderate" candidate doesn't exactly mean an appeal to independents. That election was won by people claiming they were extreme conservatives (granted most of them were full of sh*t).

    Newt may well give a debate performance that will inspire his base but, unless he completely changes his stripes, he will not appeal to the moderates and independents that he needs to win over in order to win the general election.
    Sad news, independents don't vote for moderate positions...they vote for the guy who is doing better. IF the economy looks over never November they vote Obama, if not they vote for the other guy. Every election works this way.

    If you need more proof just look at 2008. McCain is basically an old Obama and he got slaughtered because McCain had an R next to his name and independents said the "R" guy is in charge now and the economy is tanking so lets vote for the "D" guy. It was reverse in 2000. In 2004 the "R" guy had an economy that looked fine so they voted him again.

    So yeah, I think independent voters are mostly XXXXXX.

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    I don't think it matters which of the two .. Newt or Romney either one won't stand a chance in the general election. Some people think Newt can hold up in the debates .. I would agree he will do better than Romney but Obama will kill him head to head. If the GOP really wants to beat Obama as bad as they say they do then they would be out there pushing the only one who would even come close... John Huntsman.
    "You're too stupid to be saved." -- EasyRider.


    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
    Epicurus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xcaliber View Post
    I don't think it matters which of the two .. Newt or Romney either one won't stand a chance in the general election. Some people think Newt can hold up in the debates .. I would agree he will do better than Romney but Obama will kill him head to head. If the GOP really wants to beat Obama as bad as they say they do then they would be out there pushing the only one who would even come close... John Huntsman.
    Anyone who is influenced by a presidential debate shouldn't be allowed to vote. I've never learned something from watching a debate at that level (unlike primary debates).

    Honestly, I think it is going to come down to what the economy looks like to the average American in August/September of 2012. I stress "looks like" because the reality of the economy doesn't actually have to be good.

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    Sigh. The thread is about Newt vs. Ron Paul. Not Obama vs Romney, or Romney vs Newt.
    One of the things I was hoping would be discussed is that there is a big difference between the "party of Lincoln" and the party of Newt... between libertarianism and modern republicanism. I will make sure to be very direct next time.

    But what the heck, while we are at it. If I were Obama I'd rather face Newt. Newt has a way of XXXXXXX people off and showing how far right-wing he is. His extra-marital affairs while not go over well in the General. Romney, will likely be more popular. The guy changes his stance depending on which room he occupies. He has many people convinced that he knows buisness (even though his job involved exporting jobs for profit). Mitt will look each and every American in the eye and tell them what they want to hear. I picture our half-brained public failing for it.
    I am not willing to comment on which will get the nomination, as the GOP never ceases to disappoint me.
    "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security." - Ben Franklin
    “If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy” - James Madison
    "Those who believe absurdities can be made to commit atrocities" - Voltaire
    "What if the people wake up?" - Ron Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by USAMP1980 View Post
    It seems to me that now that Grouper has decided to "spend more time with his wife and family"... the race in Iowa is now between Newt and Ron Paul.
    I'd like to hear your stance and why.

    Please... no baseless accusations, flamming, or religious arguments without a point.
    First off, I assume you meant "groper", rather than "grouper"...something seems fishy about that comment.

    But second, you framed the debate as "the race in Iowa is now between Newt and Ron Paul." If you wanted a debate of modern republicanism vs. libertarianism...you should say so up front. We cannot read minds.

    The race in Iowa is clearly not between Paul and Newt. More likely, as everyone else has hinted at, it will be Romney and whomever the flavor of the week is...right now it seems to be Newt, but let's not forget that a month ago, everyone was saying Romney vs. Cain, and before that it was Romney vs. Perry, and before that it was Romney vs. Bachmann. Romney certainly polls the most consistent among republicans. As for Paul, as much as I would like to see him win, and as much as I believe we need him right now, I don't think he stands a snowball's chance in hell.
    "Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do too (if they have a gun)". -Eddie Izzard

    Long is the way
    And hard, that out of Hell leads up to Light. -Milton

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    Yes, I already stated that I should have been more clear.
    Pointing out a typo is a bit lame. I rarely make them, pretty good for a touch screen phone.
    "It seems to me" is an opinion, not a declaration of fact. It is mine and I'm entitled to it.

    I couldn't agree with you more on Ron Paul.
    "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security." - Ben Franklin
    “If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy” - James Madison
    "Those who believe absurdities can be made to commit atrocities" - Voltaire
    "What if the people wake up?" - Ron Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by USAMP1980 View Post
    Yes, I already stated that I should have been more clear.
    Pointing out a typo is a bit lame. I rarely make them, pretty good for a touch screen phone.
    "It seems to me" is an opinion, not a declaration of fact. It is mine and I'm entitled to it.
    No worries, didn't intend to offend you pointing out the typo, just found it a great opportunity to make a pun. I know what you meant, and that is the point that matters. And I respect your opinion, although I do not share it, and clearly everyone else that responded does not either.

    I couldn't agree with you more on Ron Paul.
    You know, it's sad. I hear so many people say "I'd vote for Paul, but I don't think he'll win anyway, so why bother". Perhaps if they all voted for him, he would win. He is clearly the only person on the ballot who understands the severity of the issues and is willing to take the painful steps to work towards fixing them. The rest seem to be content on getting elected and stringing the nation along for another 4 or 8 years. It's gonna hurt, we might as well get started. The longer we wait, the more it will hurt, and the more likely it is that we will not survive it.
    "Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do too (if they have a gun)". -Eddie Izzard

    Long is the way
    And hard, that out of Hell leads up to Light. -Milton

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    I wasn't offended. That's the downside to this newfangled technology... you cannot tell how someone means something. I have a sarcadtic tone to about everything.

    I agree it is very sad... populist deceit. A self-fulfilling prophecy.

    It is sad how many people believe these various other politicians. It also baffels me how many people think Ron Pauls ideas are extreme. Seems to me what we have been doing is extreme... and clearly not working. I just don't see how a vote for Newt or Romney will change anything.
    It also seems that most people fail to understand the extent of our troubles. 15 Trillion in debt is no joke. It's like a home morgage... it actually takes 2-3 times that to pay it off.
    It's alarming how many people defend the Federal Reserve. I can't tell if they are that dense... or the propoganda is that effective.
    It just feels like most political arguments are simply polishing the fine details of our demise... when it's the premise of their arguments that make it futile.
    Most people I've talked to won't support Ron Paul because he loves America more than Isreal. To me, it's sad to see so many Euro-Americans believe that Isreal is special because a book written by Isreal says Isreal is the choosen people. (Did they really think they'd finger the Romans?) I also fail to see how an "all good, all knowing, all seeing" supreme being could pick one of his "creations" over his others.
    So, as you can see... I don't have a problem with that policy.
    "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security." - Ben Franklin
    “If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy” - James Madison
    "Those who believe absurdities can be made to commit atrocities" - Voltaire
    "What if the people wake up?" - Ron Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by USAMP1980 View Post
    I agree it is very sad... populist deceit. A self-fulfilling prophecy.

    It is sad how many people believe these various other politicians. It also baffels me how many people think Ron Pauls ideas are extreme. Seems to me what we have been doing is extreme... and clearly not working. I just don't see how a vote for Newt or Romney will change anything.
    It also seems that most people fail to understand the extent of our troubles. 15 Trillion in debt is no joke. It's like a home morgage... it actually takes 2-3 times that to pay it off.
    It's alarming how many people defend the Federal Reserve. I can't tell if they are that dense... or the propoganda is that effective.
    It just feels like most political arguments are simply polishing the fine details of our demise... when it's the premise of their arguments that make it futile.
    Most people I've talked to won't support Ron Paul because he loves America more than Isreal. To me, it's sad to see so many Euro-Americans believe that Isreal is special because a book written by Isreal says Isreal is the choosen people. (Did they really think they'd finger the Romans?) I also fail to see how an "all good, all knowing, all seeing" supreme being could pick one of his "creations" over his others.
    So, as you can see... I don't have a problem with that policy.
    That reflects my sentiments almost exactly. I especially like the phrasing of the text that I bolded...how true.

    We have a House, Senate, and White House full of little Nero's...from both parties.
    "Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do too (if they have a gun)". -Eddie Izzard

    Long is the way
    And hard, that out of Hell leads up to Light. -Milton

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steeeeve View Post
    Democrats may say they are more scared of Romney but this is total XXXX. Romney is more like Obama so why would moderates and independents vote for him over Obama? As we saw in 2010, a "moderate" candidate doesn't exactly mean an appeal to independents. That election was won by people claiming they were extreme conservatives (granted most of them were full of sh*t).

    Sad news, independents don't vote for moderate positions...they vote for the guy who is doing better. IF the economy looks over never November they vote Obama, if not they vote for the other guy. Every election works this way.

    If you need more proof just look at 2008. McCain is basically an old Obama and he got slaughtered because McCain had an R next to his name and independents said the "R" guy is in charge now and the economy is tanking so lets vote for the "D" guy. It was reverse in 2000. In 2004 the "R" guy had an economy that looked fine so they voted him again.

    So yeah, I think independent voters are mostly XXXXXX.
    Yes, the economy will be a large determining factor. I don't think that it has to be good by the time of the election - just clearly improving on all fronts (including jobs). There are promising signs on the jobs front and on the economy overall so I'm cautiously hopefull, but we'll have to see.

    However, when there isn't a large compelling issue to drive the independents (such as the economy), then independents do vote their conscience - which is certainly not far right on average. The Republicans have to face the fact that most of their far-right positions are held by only a minority of Americans - typically on the order of 30% to 35%. You can see that for yourself at pollingreport.com, which is a compilation of nationwide polls on a variety of subjects - including polls made by Fox News (hardly a bastion of liberalism) that are pretty close to the rest of the polls (surprise, surprise - they didn't seem to fudge the data). That is why they try so hard to distort the facts and propogandize reality. They have to since, if they were honest, they would lose since most Americans do not share their views.

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    Quote Originally Posted by USAMP1980 View Post
    It seems to me that now that Grouper has decided to "spend more time with his wife and family"... the race in Iowa is now between Newt and Ron Paul.
    I'd like to hear your stance and why.

    Please... no baseless accusations, flamming, or religious arguments without a point.
    Why do people keep bringing up Ron Paul as if he has a chance in hell of getting elected?

    Ron Paul is the funny little man who is the alarmist to our spending but spends equal time in unreality land arguing to disband the military and Fed and who thinks American can go back to the hibernation it wallowed in prior to WWI and WWII pretending that what happens in other parts of the world won't affect us.

    He reminds me of a Harpy screeching and hurting our ears but carrying an important message about fiscal sanity which is lost in the screeching.

    Here the repellent harpies make their nests,

    Who drove the Trojans from the Strophades
    With dire announcements of the coming woe.
    They have broad wings, a human neck and face,

    Clawed feet and swollen, feathered bellies; they caw
    Their lamentations in the eerie trees
    .[7]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Another opinion View Post
    As a Democrat, most of the fellow Democrats I speak with are more scared of Romney than Newt - mainly because he would be far more appealing than Newt to the moderates and independents than would Newt. Newt may well give a debate performance that will inspire his base but, unless he completely changes his stripes, he will not appeal to the moderates and independents that he needs to win over in order to win the general election. So, as a Democrat, I continue to think that it would be better for Obama's chances if Newt won the Republican nomination.
    After three years of the current buffoon, I cannot imagine anyone wanting to keep him for four more years except for those without a brain, ultra partisans and the uber Hollywood rich who use Government as their conscience in lieu of doing anything more useful with their Hollywood wealth than buying mansions and summer homes in Tuscany.

    Hell, Newt would be a breath of fresh air compared to the stale stagnant divisive rhetoric of the current buffoons. Hell, ANY of the Republicans including Ron Paul would be a hundred times better than where we are currently headed.

    But alas, the lamestream media will pull out all the stops to get their boy re-elected even if they have to drag his sorry inexperienced woefully lacking carcass across the finish line by viciously and continuously attacking anyone who has the audacity of calling themselves Republican.

    Latest idiot talking point being parroted by the Washington talking heads; "it’s hard to take these Republicans seriously; is this the best they can offer." The irony is watching this coming from the fools who elected the most inept, laughably inexperienced President in a century.

    Meanwhile they continue to ignore the idiotic antics of Obama and Biden and their divisive message of class envy and outwardly offensive partisan gamesmanship.

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