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Thread: Torturers R US?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    There you have it folks; the liberal lunatic argument summed up and three incoherent paragraphs.
    If that was incoherent, you need to work on your reading comprehension.

    Terrorists are merely citizens taking up arms in a desperate bid to remain being ruled by brutal megalomaniac thugs and do not want to have representative governance.
    Idiot, when we invade another country, the people there are the indigenous population. We can call them terrorists, or meanies, or anything we want. That does not change the fact that they are the indigenous population and there is absolutely no question that they are covered by the geneva conventions. The idea they might not have been was a bit of PR fluff floated for the STUPID such as yourself.

    Now, if we had actually done things right in Afghanistan and sent in our special forced to bring out or kill the bad guys instead of invading and turning it into a quagmire, we could have done what we wanted with the guys and not had to worry about it. BUT, Bush was not that smart...he wanted to show the world the might of the US military...give them an example of why they should not mess with us. Instead he showed them that for this kind of war, the US military is pretty much a paper tiger, and we would expend trillions to pretty much make zero progress.

    WAY TO GO!!
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    So on the one hand you have the CIA making broad generalizations about all the great info they obtained from their victims, but with absolutely no specifics.
    Wrong, but at least you are consistent. Meanwhile all we keep getting from you are lies, distortions and emotional hysterics based on a whacked opinion and because you say so. I’ll go with the people who were on the inside and were desperately trying to protect Americans from the murderous thugs you want to defend and infer Constitutional rights and Geneva Conventions to.

    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    On the other hand you have the FBI stating unequivocally that better information was gathered WITHOUT torture, including specific examples, including the fact that the names of Bin Ladens couriers would have been known 1.5 years earlier if the CIA had not pulled KSM so they could torture them
    No truth here whatsoever; merely more conjecture, opinions and suppositions. The FBI does not deal with foreign intelligence; only domestic.

    Please post a credible source that supports your wild eyed contention that the FBI is in disagreement with the CIA and its methods.

    In addition, please post something credible that refutes the FACT that the Director of the CIA, Secretary of Defense and Secretary of Defense claim otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    Hmm....generally when a government official gets vague, it is because they are lying.
    Hmmm…generally when liberals are vague; it is obviously because they are clueless and full of lies, distortions and innuendo.

    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    The fact is that this has been studies extensively for YEARS and you are WRONG. There is no question. The only argument in your favors it "I am not bright enough to read and understand research". Morals do not even enter into it. We should not torture because the FACT is that it is not an effective means to gather intel.
    Nothing more than another massive “because you say so;” Yet the experts and people who were definitely in the know vehemently disagree with your emotional hysterics.

    I am quite certain that if a “fact” walked up and introduced itself to you, you would fail to recognize it as a fact. In other words, you obviously are clueless between the difference of your uninformed opinions and facts.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    How trite....."King George"; you people will stoop to any low level to make your non-factual points won't you?

    At least George had Congressional approval to go into Afghanistan and Iraq which is more than what Obama obtained to bomb Libyans.
    Lol. No I meant the English king George. I forgot that me being a Brit is not shown.

    'Citizens taking up arms in a desperate bid to remain being ruled by brutal megalomaniac thugs and do not want to have representative governance.' are exactly what the Americans consider the revolutionaries that fought and won the American war of independence whereas Im sure the English begged to differ.

    Not to be taken too seriously TD

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    Lol. No I meant the English king George. I forgot that me being a Brit is not shown.

    'Citizens taking up arms in a desperate bid to remain being ruled by brutal megalomaniac thugs and do not want to have representative governance.' are exactly what the Americans consider the revolutionaries that fought and won the American war of independence whereas Im sure the English begged to differ.

    Not to be taken too seriously TD
    Okay, now I am embarrassed. LOL

    However, comparing our efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq to the colonies is equally absurd.

    The efforts of a few terrorists to prevent the MAJORITY of Afghanis and Iraqis who support representative Government to our revolution from Royal tyranny is beyond silly.

    Let’s remember, this is not about freedom fighters taking arms against a tyrannical dictator, this is about a tiny cabal of thugs trying to prevent liberty and freedom of their fellow man.

    America is NOTHING like King George of England. America would not be in the ME if not for the efforts of the European imperialists post WWI and WWII. America would not be in the business of middleman negotiating for Jewish integrity and a nation of Palestine if not for the actions of the UN and their post WWII guilt.

    Giving a nation the right to elect its representatives cannot be compared to Royalists or European imperialists tying to forcefully impose their will on the people.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Okay, now I am embarrassed. LOL

    However, comparing our efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq to the colonies is equally absurd.

    The efforts of a few terrorists to prevent the MAJORITY of Afghanis and Iraqis who support representative Government to our revolution from Royal tyranny is beyond silly.

    Let’s remember, this is not about freedom fighters taking arms against a tyrannical dictator, this is about a tiny cabal of thugs trying to prevent liberty and freedom of their fellow man.

    America is NOTHING like King George of England. America would not be in the ME if not for the efforts of the European imperialists post WWI and WWII. America would not be in the business of middleman negotiating for Jewish integrity and a nation of Palestine if not for the actions of the UN and their post WWII guilt.

    Giving a nation the right to elect its representatives cannot be compared to Royalists or European imperialists tying to forcefully impose their will on the people.
    The US played its part in messing up the ME after WWII and was certainly played a part in creating the Germany that started it.
    The USA have been quite happy with government presided over by tyrants as long as the tyrant was a vassal of the US.
    If you think the efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq was about bringing the delights of democracy to their downtrodden masses then you are simply wrong.
    It amuses me when some US pundits bandy the phrase imperialists about to try to insult European history when half the world extends that phrase to the present US.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    The US played its part in messing up the ME after WWII
    How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    and was certainly played a part in creating the Germany that started it.
    How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    The USA have been quite happy with government presided over by tyrants as long as the tyrant was a vassal of the US.
    Who has been a vassal of the USA?


    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    If you think the efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq was about bringing the delights of democracy to their downtrodden masses then you are simply wrong.
    No, I never stated that. The efforts in Afghanistan were a result of their support of the terrorists who attacked us on 9-11. The efforts in Iraq were the consequence of a tyrant who invaded and ally and member nation of the UN and then refused to abide by the resolutions he agreed with.

    Our efforts in both nations are to assist the people to create a representative Government where they can choose their own leaders in lieu of tyrants who rule with military might.


    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    It amuses me when some US pundits bandy the phrase imperialists about to try to insult European history when half the world extends that phrase to the present US.
    It amuses me when Europeans desperately attempt to deflect their imperialist mistakes onto the USA.

    We have been cleaning up after the messes of Europe for a very long time now. Trying to suggest that the US is imperialist is about as asinine as suggesting the terrorists, blowing up innocents for no other purpose than to prevent democracy, are freedom fighters.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    Idiot, when we invade another country, the people there are the indigenous population.
    Idiot, claiming the terrorists who are blowing up innocent Iraqi’s and Afghani’s as being the indigenous population is outright naïve and stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    We can call them terrorists, or meanies, or anything we want.
    No idiot, they actually are terrorists because they are blowing up the indigenous population, religious mosques and police stations.

    It is fascinating how lefties cannot seem to grasp simple facts and prefer to fabricate their own support their delusional ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    That does not change the fact that they are the indigenous population and there is absolutely no question that they are covered by the geneva conventions.
    Then you have not read the Geneva Convention nor comprehend the difference between imported terrorism and indigenous.
    The indigenous population doesn’t go about blowing their neighbors up. They actually voted overwhelmingly for Democracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    The idea they might not have been was a bit of PR fluff floated for the STUPID such as yourself.
    The idea non-uniformed foreign enemy combatants are a party to the Geneva Convention can only be expressed in complete and utter ignorance and by a willing suspension of common sense; something you show an amazing propensity for.

    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    Now, if we had actually done things right in Afghanistan and sent in our special forced to bring out or kill the bad guys instead of invading and turning it into a quagmire, we could have done what we wanted with the guys and not had to worry about it.
    There you go again, pretending you know what you are talking about or were appointed the “decider.” But alas, there is nothing more here than your uninformed opinion based on your naiveté and emotional hysterics.

    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    BUT, Bush was not that smart...
    Because you say so; again we get nothing more from you than your uninformed opinions and laughably naïve emotional hysterics. The funniest thing is when lefties like you claim he was an idiot, but smart enough to fool the XXXXXX who infest the Democrat party and 34 other nations into a war of choice.

    I find it ironic when uninformed leftist simpletons claim Bush is the idiot.

    Can you smell the irony yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    he wanted to show the world the might of the US military... give them an example of why they should not mess with us.
    Wrong again; but you are pathetically consistent in that regard. He wanted to defend the US from another despicable attack from the thugs and despots you wish to infer Constitutional rights and Geneva Conventions to.

    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    Instead he showed them that for this kind of war, the US military is pretty much a paper tiger, and we would expend trillions to pretty much make zero progress.
    Wrong again; but at last consistent. I am amused when uninformed Bush hating lefties make such specious claims when we did remove to thug dictatorships and gave the indigenous people an opportunity to choose their own leaders for peaceful purposes.

    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    WAY TO GO!!
    Yep, way to go; you have once again illustrated why you are the poster boy for the ignorance that infests the left today.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    How so?.
    By supporting thier own interests in it over the interests of the people that lived there.



    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    How so?.
    By being party of the demand of huge reperations after the great war



    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Who has been a vassal of the USA?.
    Shah of Iran
    muamar gaddhafi
    anwar sadat
    husni mubarak
    kinh hussien and abdulah of jordan
    The saudi royal family
    The al sabah family of kuwait
    Thats just the ones in the ME.




    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    No, I never stated that. The efforts in Afghanistan were a result of their support of the terrorists who attacked us on 9-11. The efforts in Iraq were the consequence of a tyrant who invaded and ally and member nation of the UN and then refused to abide by the resolutions he agreed with.

    Our efforts in both nations are to assist the people to create a representative Government where they can choose their own leaders in lieu of tyrants who rule with military might..

    Pity the UK never invaded Eire to rout the terrorists that the US generally supported .
    Iraq was never a threat to its neighbours when it was invaded by the US after 9/11.
    It was invaded on a dishonest premise, an outright lie.
    It was invaded to avenge the father of dubya and snatch the Iraqi oil .



    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    It amuses me when Europeans desperately attempt to deflect their imperialist mistakes onto the USA.

    We have been cleaning up after the messes of Europe for a very long time now. Trying to suggest that the US is imperialist is about as asinine as suggesting the terrorists, blowing up innocents for no other purpose than to prevent democracy, are freedom fighters.
    Cleaning up the messes of Europeans?
    Dont make me laugh.
    The US came out of WW2 with the assets of the British Empire.A huge potential market in Europe and the military might to overthrow just about every government apart from China and the USSR .
    They overthrew any useful regime that looked like it was sympathetic to the Soviet union but was not aligned to it.
    The US is a country run by corporations with a government that is simply a front for those corporations...dont tell me about European imperialism..we taught you everything you know lol
    It will all end soon though there is another tough kid on the block and all the little guys will run to them...Christ! even Pakistan is throwing rocks at you lol
    The notion that the US foreign policy is to do anything other than underpin and advance its own interests is risible and an assertion that it could give a stuff about the democratic rights of anyone else is an insult to the intelligence of anyone that lives outside of Lala land
    Last edited by gansao; 12-13-2011 at 04:12 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    The question of the efficacy of enhanced interrogation techniques, however, has continued to be debated. There is strong evidence that such interrogations have been effective in eliciting valuable intelligence. For example, a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo noted the following:

    “[T]he CIA believes the intelligence acquired from these [enhanced] interrogations has been a key reason why al Qaeda has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.... In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including [Khalid Sheik Mohammed, a.k.a. 'KSM'] and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques.... Before the CIA used enhanced techniques ... KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, 'Soon you will find out.' [Once the techniques were applied], interrogations have led to specific, actionable intelligence, as well as a general increase in the amount of intelligence regarding al Qaeda and its affiliates.”

    "[…] Interrogations of [Abu] Zubaydah—again, once enhanced techniques were employed—furnished detailed information regarding al Qaeda's organizational structure, key operatives, and modus operandi and identified KSM as the mastermind of the September 11 attacks.... Zubaydah and KSM also supplied important information about al-Zarqawi and his network [in Iraq].”

    When Abu Zubaydeh began to reveal information as a result of the waterboarding, he explained that he and his fellow al Qaeda operatives were obligated to resist only until they could no longer do so, at which point it became permissible for them to cooperate with interrogators. Indeed he advised his interrogators: "Do this for all the brothers."

    Of the thousands of unlawful combatants captured by the U.S., fewer than 35 were subjected to any enhanced techniques. Waterboarding in particular was used against an even smaller number of suspects. The amount of information yielded by such efforts, however, was immense. According to former CIA Director Michael Hayden, as of 2006, fully half of the government's knowledge about the structure and activities of al Qaeda had been learned via enhanced interrogation.


    Enhanced Interrogation Techniques (EIT) / Torture - Discover the Networks

    This is coming from a man with far more information than a few unemployed bloggers on a political debate site:

    ABC News’ Luis Martinez reports: CIA Director Michael Hayden offered a spirited defense of the agency’s controversial detention and interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding......

    "You can’t say it didn’t work. It worked," Hayden said in a wide-ranging farewell interview with reporters at the CIA’s headquarters in Langley, Va.

    Hayden was not CIA Director at the time that the enhanced techniques were legally authorized for use at secret CIA prisons, but he offered a strong defense nonetheless. "I am convinced that the program got the maximum amount of information. Particularly out of that first generation of detainees."


    CIA Director’s Strong Defense of Interrogation Techniques - ABC News

    Another top member of the Bush administration, former defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld, credited the use of so-called "enhanced interrogation techniques" with yielding "a major fraction" of US intelligence on al-Qaeda and called ending them a "mistake."


    Cheney, speaking on the "Fox News Sunday" program, said top intelligence officials had stated that "some of the early leads" that helped agents find bin Laden had come thanks to the harsh interrogation techniques used on terror suspects.

    "All have said one way or the other that the enhanced interrogation program played a role," he said. "My guess is that's probably the case that it contributed, just as did a number of other factors."

    Asked whether the methods should be reinstated if the United States were to capture a new high-value target, Cheney replied: "I certainly would advocate it. I'd be a strong supporter of it."


    Dick Cheney calls for the return of enhanced interrogation - Telegraph



    Please cite the exact Geneva Convention that applies to this case.

    Thank you.
    Problem with those testimonies is that since it's all state secrets and such we can't confirm (which is also true of those who claim nothing came of it).

    As for the citation that was in post 47 I believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Okay, now I am embarrassed. LOL

    However, comparing our efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq to the colonies is equally absurd.

    The efforts of a few terrorists to prevent the MAJORITY of Afghanis and Iraqis who support representative Government to our revolution from Royal tyranny is beyond silly.

    Let’s remember, this is not about freedom fighters taking arms against a tyrannical dictator, this is about a tiny cabal of thugs trying to prevent liberty and freedom of their fellow man.

    America is NOTHING like King George of England. America would not be in the ME if not for the efforts of the European imperialists post WWI and WWII. America would not be in the business of middleman negotiating for Jewish integrity and a nation of Palestine if not for the actions of the UN and their post WWII guilt.

    Giving a nation the right to elect its representatives cannot be compared to Royalists or European imperialists tying to forcefully impose their will on the people.
    While terrorist and revolutionaries may not be comparable in the context of end-goals their methods are similar. The difference you point out is more of whether the war is just and not whether torture is justified. In the context it must be assumed that the war is just or else you would not even be justified in taking prisoners.
    Morals are a religious Myth.. - Xcaliber
    How is Evil Immoral? - Xcaliber
    I am right until you prove otherwise - Xcaliber

  10. #70
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    Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    How so?.

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    By supporting thier own interests in it over the interests of the people that lived there.
    Every nation supports its own interests; now specifically what policies did America have after WWII that messed up the Middle East. I was specific with mine, the Europeans meddled in the ME for centuries, most recent the British occupation of Egypt and Palestine, the British Petroleum and Dutch Petrol in the middle East in areas like Iran and Iraq. The UNs creation of the Jewish State.

    How did Britain act in the interests of Arabs? How did the Dutch act in the interests of the Arabs? How has the UN acted in the interests of the Arabs?

    What specific policies could you be referring to that have been meddling other than fixing the mess of Europe and the Arabs?



    Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    How so?.

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    By being party of the demand of huge reperations after the great war
    The US was never party to the huge demands for reparations after WWI. If anything, that was the great nations of France and England; but it begs the question, how does this even remotely relate to my comments or the thread topic?



    Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    Who has been a vassal of the USA?.

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    Shah of Iran
    That is a lie…..how so?

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    muamar gaddhafi
    That is another lie….how so?

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    anwar sadat
    Another laughable lie…..how so?

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    husni Mubarak
    Incredibly false…..how so?

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    kinh hussien and abdulah of Jordan
    This is another lie……Hussein was a creation of the British Empire.

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    The saudi royal family
    Another vast lie…..how is the family of Saud a vassal of the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    The al sabah family of Kuwait
    Another lie…..how so?

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    Thats just the ones in the ME.
    It is readily apparent you are clueless as to the meaning of vassal state and have incredible ignorance on the history of the region.

    Your comments are tantamount to lunatic conspiracy web sites that spew lies in place of facts and the truth. But you are welcome to provide something more credible than because you say so.


    Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    No, I never stated that. The efforts in Afghanistan were a result of their support of the terrorists who attacked us on 9-11. The efforts in Iraq were the consequence of a tyrant who invaded and ally and member nation of the UN and then refused to abide by the resolutions he agreed with.

    Our efforts in both nations are to assist the people to create a representative Government where they can choose their own leaders in lieu of tyrants who rule with military might..

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    Pity the UK never invaded Eire to rout the terrorists that the US generally supported .
    Another lie; the US never supported Irish terrorists.

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    Iraq was never a threat to its neighbours when it was invaded by the US after 9/11.
    Another person who is clueless as to the reasons we are in Iraq, never read the Joint Resolution on Iraq and who apparently would prefer to wallow in lies and distortions rather than the truth and the facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    It was invaded on a dishonest premise, an outright lie.
    You would be wrong again; perhaps if you READ the Joint Resolution you wouldn’t be so inclined to spew ridiculous lies and falsehoods.

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    It was invaded to avenge the father of dubya and snatch the Iraqi oil .
    Another lie based on lunatic blog sites. It is apparent you wouldn’t comprehend what credible means or know a fact if it walked up and slapped you on your uninformed head.


    Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    It amuses me when Europeans desperately attempt to deflect their imperialist mistakes onto the USA.

    We have been cleaning up after the messes of Europe for a very long time now. Trying to suggest that the US is imperialist is about as asinine as suggesting the terrorists, blowing up innocents for no other purpose than to prevent democracy, are freedom fighters.

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    Cleaning up the messes of Europeans?
    Dont make me laugh.
    Absolutely; the nations of Syria, Iraq and Jordan were drawn by the British Empire. The usurious tactics of British and Dutch oil companies fomented the communist side of Arab politics which resulted in despots like Saddam and Syria’s King Assad.

    The UN created the Jewish State above US objections and then abandoned her when she was attacked by massive Arab legions.

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    The US came out of WW2 with the assets of the British Empire.
    This is a lie with nothing credible to support it; this lying appears to be a habit with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    A huge potential market in Europe and the military might to overthrow just about every government apart from China and the USSR .
    Another laughable distortion and lie and outright ignorance of the post war conditions in Europe and threat of Communism. This is typical for lefties however and not unexpected.

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    They overthrew any useful regime that looked like it was sympathetic to the Soviet union but was not aligned to it.
    This is nothing more than a lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    The US is a country run by corporations with a government that is simply a front for those corporations...dont tell me about European imperialism..we taught you everything you know lol
    Once again this is merely the distorted views of a person so out of touch with the facts and reality as to make outrageously absurd claims consisting of nothing more than “because you say so.”

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    It will all end soon though there is another tough kid on the block and all the little guys will run to them...Christ! even Pakistan is throwing rocks at you lol
    This is nothing more than another laughable claim in a vacuum of reality or any facts.

    Your comments smack of the jealous ignorance spewed by European youth who are ignorant of the past, clueless of the future and wallow in abject blissful denial thinking that your nations are blameless while blaming the US for everything the XXXXXX in Europe, the ME and Asia create.

    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    The notion that the US foreign policy is to do anything other than underpin and advance its own interests is risible and an assertion that it could give a stuff about the democratic rights of anyone else is an insult to the intelligence of anyone that lives outside of Lala land
    The notion that US policy has not resulted in many more nations living in freedom from thugs and tyrants requires the willing suspense of one’s brain.

    But alas, this is the jealous ignorant state of European youth these days. Meanwhile, Rome is burning down around their ears under the largess of the Socialist welfare State created in ignorance and all they can do is whine about how evil America is.

    I suppose it is America’s fault the Euro is in decline and members of the Euro are heading for collapse and default.

    I would suggest that Europeans lay their envy and jealousy on the shelf and work to mimic American enterprise rather than insult it with their laughably clueless rants.

    The only time America gets into trouble is when it attempts to be like Europeans, attempts to implement a Socialist agenda and when liberal Democrats are in power.

    Your clueless and false rants are a testimony to leftist ideology that has never known anything but failure on a grand scale and you are the poster child for leftist debate tactics where the truth, the facts and credible sources are always the victims and lies, falsehoods and distortions the order of the day.

    Now run along and rant at someone who cares about clueless ignorance and inane conspiracy theories. One has to live in a parallel universe to spew such idiotic nonsense.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    Problem with those testimonies is that since it's all state secrets and such we can't confirm (which is also true of those who claim nothing came of it).
    Oh golly; so because you don't like these people they must be lying. There you have it, lefties logic all rolled up in one paragraph. Why am I not surprised that when I use citations of FACT, this is the response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    As for the citation that was in post 47 I believe.
    This was post 47:

    QUOTE=daewoo;444522
    No, your responses are beyond stupid.
    The indigenous population of a region who take up arms to resist an invading army, which is exactly what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan, enjoy the full protection of the geneva conventions and are specifically exempted from the uniform requirements.

    Further, the Geneva conventions do not contain a definition of torture. They do, however, contain this (article 17):

    Gee. I wonder if waterboarding would fall under that???
    Nitwit.


    Nothing more here than another nitwit ranting on about things they know nothing about. Want to try again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    While terrorist and revolutionaries may not be comparable in the context of end-goals their methods are similar.
    They are not similar in any regard. To suggest they are is nothing but laughably foolish gibberish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    The difference you point out is more of whether the war is just and not whether torture is justified. In the context it must be assumed that the war is just or else you would not even be justified in taking prisoners.
    Wrong again; but par for the course. The case I am making is that the enhanced methods used do not meet the definition of torture and those desperately trying to argue such nonsense are merely confused ignorant hate filled XXXXXX who desperately and ignorantly wish to argue that America is the bad guy here and not the terrorists who fly aircraft into buildings, not the terrorists like Osama who profess a desire to kill massive numbers of white people, not the despots like Saddam who invade their neighbors and gas their own populations and not the thugs who protected and shielded those who plotted, planned and carried out the 9-11 attacks.

    Now I don’t blame the hate filled lefties for wanting to distort the facts and fabricate their own version of reality; after all, they have to in order to continue following the massive failure their ideology represents.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    How so?.



    Every nation supports its own interests; now specifically what policies did America have after WWII that messed up the Middle East. I was specific with mine, the Europeans meddled in the ME for centuries, most recent the British occupation of Egypt and Palestine, the British Petroleum and Dutch Petrol in the middle East in areas like Iran and Iraq. The UNs creation of the Jewish State.

    How did Britain act in the interests of Arabs? How did the Dutch act in the interests of the Arabs? How has the UN acted in the interests of the Arabs?

    What specific policies could you be referring to that have been meddling other than fixing the mess of Europe and the Arabs?



    Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    How so?.



    The US was never party to the huge demands for reparations after WWI. If anything, that was the great nations of France and England; but it begs the question, how does this even remotely relate to my comments or the thread topic?



    Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    Who has been a vassal of the USA?.



    That is a lie…..how so?



    That is another lie….how so?



    Another laughable lie…..how so?



    Incredibly false…..how so?



    This is another lie……Hussein was a creation of the British Empire.



    Another vast lie…..how is the family of Saud a vassal of the US?



    Another lie…..how so?



    It is readily apparent you are clueless as to the meaning of vassal state and have incredible ignorance on the history of the region.

    Your comments are tantamount to lunatic conspiracy web sites that spew lies in place of facts and the truth. But you are welcome to provide something more credible than because you say so.


    Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    No, I never stated that. The efforts in Afghanistan were a result of their support of the terrorists who attacked us on 9-11. The efforts in Iraq were the consequence of a tyrant who invaded and ally and member nation of the UN and then refused to abide by the resolutions he agreed with.

    Our efforts in both nations are to assist the people to create a representative Government where they can choose their own leaders in lieu of tyrants who rule with military might..



    Another lie; the US never supported Irish terrorists.



    Another person who is clueless as to the reasons we are in Iraq, never read the Joint Resolution on Iraq and who apparently would prefer to wallow in lies and distortions rather than the truth and the facts.



    You would be wrong again; perhaps if you READ the Joint Resolution you wouldn’t be so inclined to spew ridiculous lies and falsehoods.



    Another lie based on lunatic blog sites. It is apparent you wouldn’t comprehend what credible means or know a fact if it walked up and slapped you on your uninformed head.


    Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    It amuses me when Europeans desperately attempt to deflect their imperialist mistakes onto the USA.

    We have been cleaning up after the messes of Europe for a very long time now. Trying to suggest that the US is imperialist is about as asinine as suggesting the terrorists, blowing up innocents for no other purpose than to prevent democracy, are freedom fighters.



    Absolutely; the nations of Syria, Iraq and Jordan were drawn by the British Empire. The usurious tactics of British and Dutch oil companies fomented the communist side of Arab politics which resulted in despots like Saddam and Syria’s King Assad.

    The UN created the Jewish State above US objections and then abandoned her when she was attacked by massive Arab legions.



    This is a lie with nothing credible to support it; this lying appears to be a habit with you.



    Another laughable distortion and lie and outright ignorance of the post war conditions in Europe and threat of Communism. This is typical for lefties however and not unexpected.



    This is nothing more than a lie.



    Once again this is merely the distorted views of a person so out of touch with the facts and reality as to make outrageously absurd claims consisting of nothing more than “because you say so.”



    This is nothing more than another laughable claim in a vacuum of reality or any facts.

    Your comments smack of the jealous ignorance spewed by European youth who are ignorant of the past, clueless of the future and wallow in abject blissful denial thinking that your nations are blameless while blaming the US for everything the XXXXXX in Europe, the ME and Asia create.



    The notion that US policy has not resulted in many more nations living in freedom from thugs and tyrants requires the willing suspense of one’s brain.

    But alas, this is the jealous ignorant state of European youth these days. Meanwhile, Rome is burning down around their ears under the largess of the Socialist welfare State created in ignorance and all they can do is whine about how evil America is.

    I suppose it is America’s fault the Euro is in decline and members of the Euro are heading for collapse and default.

    I would suggest that Europeans lay their envy and jealousy on the shelf and work to mimic American enterprise rather than insult it with their laughably clueless rants.

    The only time America gets into trouble is when it attempts to be like Europeans, attempts to implement a Socialist agenda and when liberal Democrats are in power.

    Your clueless and false rants are a testimony to leftist ideology that has never known anything but failure on a grand scale and you are the poster child for leftist debate tactics where the truth, the facts and credible sources are always the victims and lies, falsehoods and distortions the order of the day.

    Now run along and rant at someone who cares about clueless ignorance and inane conspiracy theories. One has to live in a parallel universe to spew such idiotic nonsense.
    So your attempt at refuting the points that I made amounts to ' thats a lie' thats another lie' and 'what about you your country then!?'.

    Another success for the saturday morning movies university of American foreign policy in the 20th and 21st century.lol

    Its this joker's special kind of ignorance reflected in past US administrations that makes the US as hated across the world as it is and the probable result will be that Americans in the future will be reading about their past historical failures in Mandarin.
    Last edited by gansao; 12-14-2011 at 10:49 AM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    So your attempt at refuting the points that I made amounts to ' thats a lie' thats another lie' and 'what about you your country then!?'.

    Most of what you spew here is a lie; I am merely pointing the obvious out. However, if it isn't, prove your case with something more credible than "because you say so."


    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    Another success for the saturday morning movies university of American foreign policy in the 20th and 21st century.lol

    When you laugh, you should be looking in the mirror. Nothing more ironic than seeing Europeans claim Americans are ignorant while making ignorant claims and statements.


    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    Its this joker's special kind of ignorance reflected in past US administrations that makes the US as hated across the world as it is and the probable result will be that Americans in the future will be reading about their past historical failures in Mandarin.
    The special kind of ignorance shown by you and your ilk suggest a more profound state of mind; that which is filled with jealousy, envy and hatred for things you know little or nothing about.

    Once again, the claim that the US is hated across the world is a vast lie spewed by leftists who desperately struggle to defend their profoundly failed ideology.

    Thank you for illustrating it so well here and being the poster child for European lefties.

    Carry on; I can't say I look forward to more of your lies and distortions and whacked out claims based on nothing more than your uninformed opinions.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    So your attempt at refuting the points that I made amounts to ' thats a lie' thats another lie' and 'what about you your country then!?'.

    Another success for the saturday morning movies university of American foreign policy in the 20th and 21st century.lol

    Its this joker's special kind of ignorance reflected in past US administrations that makes the US as hated across the world as it is and the probable result will be that Americans in the future will be reading about their past historical failures in Mandarin.
    Yep. Pretty much.

    The problem, of course, is that the republicans have to actually pander to these mental midgets in order to get elected. As our educational system has weakened, it has reached the point where you pretty much have to be half retarded to win the primaries and end up on the republican ticket.

    Watch the US presidential primaries. Newt is willing to pander to whatever XXXXXX he has to in order to win. He does not care. Bachman actually IS one of the XXXXXX. The rest of the candidates are decidedly less comfortable with jumping in bed with the kind of ignorance that TS displays, so we can pretty much write them off as contenders.

    This has been the downfall of the republican party. Traditionally the republicans in the US were the thinkers. They were the realists, while the liberals tended toward idealism. It actually served us pretty well for a lot of years because the thinkers and the feelers kind of balanced each other out.

    Today the republican party has become the party of stoopid. It is under siege by people like truthsayer who pretty much have EVERY fact at their disposal wrong. They like simple solutions to simple problems and cant seem to understand that most of the problems we face are NOT simple, so simple solutions are not going to solve them. People like myself, staunch traditional conservatives, are embarrassed to be associated with them.

    I think we will either see the pendulum start to swing the other way, or will see a major shift in the basic 2 party system we have here in the US. Traditional conservatives sent a pretty strong message to the republican leadership at the last presidential election. We will not just show up to vote for whatever nitwit the mouth breathing XXXXXX pick to run. Give us good candidates or we will stay home and you can see how pandering to the XXXXXX works out for you.
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Oh golly; so because you don't like these people they must be lying. There you have it, lefties logic all rolled up in one paragraph. Why am I not surprised that when I use citations of FACT, this is the response.
    I don't even know who that was besides the fact that he was CIA. I do not dislike him, and I personally think it's likely that torture would turn up some results if used correctly. The thing is that I don't like appeals to authority in the best of circumstances, when the authority is a bunch of spies and metsuke types I wouldn't accept that the sky is blue on their word.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    This was post 47:

    QUOTE=daewoo;444522
    No, your responses are beyond stupid.
    The indigenous population of a region who take up arms to resist an invading army, which is exactly what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan, enjoy the full protection of the geneva conventions and are specifically exempted from the uniform requirements.

    Further, the Geneva conventions do not contain a definition of torture. They do, however, contain this (article 17):

    Gee. I wonder if waterboarding would fall under that???
    Nitwit.


    Nothing more here than another nitwit ranting on about things they know nothing about. Want to try again?
    In which it clearly cites article 17. The Geneva Conventions - Article 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    They are not similar in any regard. To suggest they are is nothing but laughably foolish gibberish.
    They are similar in many regards, to start with they are fighting governments for ideology. They also both have no qualms about resorting to irregular tactics such as not wearing uniforms and attacking non-military targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Wrong again; but par for the course. The case I am making is that the enhanced methods used do not meet the definition of torture and those desperately trying to argue such nonsense are merely confused ignorant hate filled XXXXXX who desperately and ignorantly
    What does meet the definition of torture? If it's merely a level of pain that is completely subjective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    wish to argue that America is the bad guy here and not the terrorists who fly aircraft into buildings, not the terrorists like Osama who profess a desire to kill massive numbers of white people, not the despots like Saddam who invade their neighbors and gas their own populations and not the thugs who protected and shielded those who plotted, planned and carried out the 9-11 attacks.

    Now I don’t blame the hate filled lefties for wanting to distort the facts and fabricate their own version of reality; after all, they have to in order to continue following the massive failure their ideology represents.
    I don't think anyone believes osama and his pals aren't bad guys.
    Morals are a religious Myth.. - Xcaliber
    How is Evil Immoral? - Xcaliber
    I am right until you prove otherwise - Xcaliber

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