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Thread: Torturers R US?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    The funniest thing about such a laughable stupid claim is that it requires one to completely ignore the REAL definition of torture, requires one to pretend that 9-11 never occurred or that Islamic fanatics do not wish to randomly kill as many infidels/Americans as possible and that the efforts of Bush/Cheney were not attempts to protect the innocent lives of thousands of Americans.

    This patently naive and laughably stupid view can only come from the leftists whose ideology are a complete failure and in order to defend it, must lie, deflect, impugn and insult in order to defend it.

    I find such rhetoric repugnant in its ignorance of the facts and realities; but this is what we get when dealing with uber liberals and leftists.
    so now we not only have a definltion of torture, but a REAL definition of torture. I am still waiting for a simple one.

    Anyway, the 'definition' of what constitute torture is irrelevant for whatever pain and suffering is administered to detainees it will never meet the 'definition' or torture of the pro-torture sadists. Oops! I mean the pro 'enhanced interrogation techniques' patriots.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by simone View Post
    Opposition to torture is a mark of advanced civilization. Barbarians embrace torture.
    if your statement is correct then there is only a handful of advanced civilizations and the barbarians are running most of the world. Going by the posts in this thread there is no shortage of barbarians.

    It is interesting that the response from the readers of The New York Times to the article that heads this thread was almost unanimously against torture. Maybe civilized people read The Times but those here, apart from one or two exceptions, are FOX News barbarians.

    Well, we cannot all be New Yorkers.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAMP1980 View Post
    Well... the difference between that and I is that I do not assume that all people which are against torture pretend 9/11 never happened. Just because some Islam terrorist want to kill me doesn't scare me. I've seen people tourtured, have you?
    I would rather be virtuous than the walking dead. "Give me liberty or give me death".

    "He who would trade liberty for security deserve neither..." -Ben Franklin

    I also don't label groups of people and assume they are stupid and in error because they don't believe the same beliefs.
    I think polarized people are wrong, not just the 'left...' or 'right'. I think anyone that would support a political party over their fellow man is "repugnant".

    "If tyranny and oppression ever come to this land, it will be under the guise of fighting a foreign 'enemy" -James Madison
    Are you able to connect the dots?

    "Right-wingers" and modern Republicans call themselves "conservative". Nothing could be farther from the truth. The last Republican to make any sense was Reagan "At the very heart and soul of Republicanism should be Libertarinism".
    The founding fathers were liberal by 1776 standards. The day after the war they are suddenly conservative?
    Labeling people left or right is for the small-minded.
    you can only preach to the converted, and we are born converted or not, and if not, one will never be. You are born with a strong sense of what constitutes wrong and right or you are born without it, or with a twisted one.

    Some people are born indifferent to the sufferings of others, some even enjoy it. This is the sad reality. Concentration camps, killing fields, torture by police and other branches of the state would not be possible if this kind of people didn't exist.

    Their 'arguments' follow this sequence or closely this sequence:

    1) The 'definition stage" :

    'define so and so'. No matter how many definitions you provide to them none of the definitions is the REAL 'so and so'. In other words 'waterboarding' will never meet the definition of torture unless of course is done to them.

    2) The 'rationalization' stage:

    " it is done for a good reason"

    3) the final stage : the 'ad hominem' stage:

    insults galore : you are a leftist, you are stupid blah blah


    This is the pattern of every 'debate' in this forum


    It is sad but it is also funny, I admit that 'freedom' and 'truth detector' make me laugh in the same way that Doc Jones are IMHO hilarious.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    You can only preach to the converted, and we are born converted or not, and if not, one will never be. You are born with a strong sense of what constitutes wrong and right or you are born without it, or with a twisted one.
    Interesting so, it's almost like a race. I also like the analogy to religion, you can't convert people to faith with reason after all; they need to want to believe. What do you do with twisted people? Can't reason with them (because you have no reason), can't torture them; I guess all you can do is shoot them

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    1) The 'definition stage" :

    'define so and so'. No matter how many definitions you provide to them none of the definitions is the REAL 'so and so'. In other words 'waterboarding' will never meet the definition of torture unless of course is done to them.

    2) The 'rationalization' stage:

    " it is done for a good reason"

    3) the final stage : the 'ad hominem' stage:

    insults galore : you are a leftist, you are stupid blah blah
    Your pattern has been:
    1. Definition - there is no definition
    2. Rationalization - reason is not needed
    3. Give up - "if you don't already know I can't explain it to you" and all such excuses
    Morals are a religious Myth.. - Xcaliber
    How is Evil Immoral? - Xcaliber
    I am right until you prove otherwise - Xcaliber

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAMP1980 View Post
    The problem(s) with torture is that it does not give you reliable information. You can torture my kids for information on the "Iranian nuclear program" and they WILL tell you something. Obviously, they are making something up so you'll stop torturing them.
    THANK YOU.

    This has always been my primary argument in the torture debate. When I was in the army they taught us that you do not torture because IT DOES NOT WORK. 99% of the time it yields bad information, and the 1% of the time the information is good, you will probably never know it because you will be wasting all your resources acting on the 99% of the information that was bad.

    Torture is counterproductive to getting effective information. We heard repeatedly from FBI interrogators who worked at Gitmo that they would be working on a subject, getting good information from them and making real progress, then the CIA would start torturing them and the flow of good information stopped completely.

    It just does not work. It is counterproductive. The military has known this for years, which is why the policy of the united state military is that we do not torture. That is not because the military is full of fluffy bunny loving little girls. The people making these policies are battle hardened soldiers with some of the best military educations in history, and history tells us that while torture is an AWESOME way to make somebody confess to something, whether it is true or not, it is a TERRIBLE way to get accurate information out of an individual.

    And before anybody jumps out to point out that Abu Ghraib was a military prison...the torture program there was a CIA run program. Those soldiers were operating outside their chain of command under the direct control and supervision of CIA field agents.
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

  6. #21
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    Thumbs up there is still hope for humankind and human rights

    you and USAMP restore my belief that all is not lost in the moral world. Some human beings have their moral pointer pointing to the moral north.

    Some people such as "freedom" (freedom from morality and compassion ?) pretend not to know what constitute torture and feign the need for a definition; as if proof were needed that torture took place in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib.

    I can hear them saying:
    "Nope! according to my definition of torture waterboarding is not torture. "
    for repeatedly pouring buckets of water down the nostrils of a tied down helpless individual and thus causing the body to believe it is drowning with the consequente reactions: spasms, gasping for air, blind panic etc might be a tiny little unpleasant but no, torture it ain't. "

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    Interesting so, it's almost like a race. I also like the analogy to religion, you can't convert people to faith with reason after all; they need to want to believe. What do you do with twisted people? Can't reason with them (because you have no reason), can't torture them; I guess all you can do is shoot them

    I just pity them.

    The problem is they can vote and most if not all Republican politicians are pro-torture, as the article at the beginning of this thread says. So individually people such as you are harmless but in numbers ...

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    you and USAMP restore my belief that all is not lost in the moral world. Some human beings have their moral pointer pointing to the moral north.
    IMO the debate about the morality of torture is one we should not even have to have. It does not work. End of story. Since we KNOW it does not work, we should not do it, and so there should be no need for a moral debate.

    I think a lot of the "debate" is ignorance born and is largely cause by a lack of...shall we say...sophistication in a lot of Americans. A lot of americans have trouble with complex concepts. If somebody is not doing what you want them to, in this case telling you what you want to know, you MAKE them. The idea that it is not as simple as spanking a child for misbehaving is completely and utterly beyond them. Your child keeps running in the street, you spank them for running in the street, they stop running in the street. Simple.

    The reality, though, is that there is a HUGE difference between using negative reinforcement like that on a child and using it on an adult to get information. The 2 are not really comparable.

    If you need more evidence of this, look at the whole "border fence" fiasco. We had a problem with illegal aliens crossing the border, and the best solution they could come up with was to put up a fence. I mean, after all, the fence keeps the neighbors dog out of your back yard, right? Therefore 6 ft of chain link should surely be enough to keep all those dirty wetbacks south of the border.

    They dont have enough abstract reasoning ability to realize that you can climb most fences, or tunnel under them, or cut them. You can cut through a chain link fence with a $3 pair of pliers. We dont generally climb fences or cut them because we have been taught not to...we have been taught to respect those boundaries...not because it is actually difficult to circumvent them.

    This is, IMO, the single biggest problem in the US today. The nitwits have become so numerous they have become a voting block and are able to field their own candidates. Look at most issues in American politics anymore. On the one side you typically have folks with a workable plan. It is not always the BEST plan...usually some crappy compromise, but it is a workable plan. On the other side you have a really simple plan that is completely and totally devoid of anything that resembles logic. They usually have the facts ALL wrong, and there is no possible way to examine the facts and come to the conclusion that they have.

    It is the retard voting block and it has grown...a lot...not much longer and they will be a majority. Then we will torture the hell out of everybody, only tax the poor, double defense spending, and cut all social programs so the starving masses kill and eat us. Life will be GREAT then!!!
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    I just pity them.

    The problem is they can vote and most if not all Republican politicians are pro-torture, as the article at the beginning of this thread says. So individually people such as you are harmless but in numbers ...
    So basically you're here to express your pity for the immoral race and to explain that ignorance is superior to reason or definition....

    That's nice, but don't you need to say <flush> for that to work?
    Morals are a religious Myth.. - Xcaliber
    How is Evil Immoral? - Xcaliber
    I am right until you prove otherwise - Xcaliber

  10. #25
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    You are a funny guy.

    I offered you a hands on definition of torture. But if you prefer otherwise then, what about looking up 'torture' in a dictionary and, if after doing so you still are of the opinion that waterboarding does not meet the definition of torture, then ...

    as daewo said ''the nitwits have become so numerous" and they vote
    Last edited by Winston Smith; 12-02-2011 at 05:41 AM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    IMO the debate about the morality of torture is one we should not even have to have. It does not work. End of story. Since we KNOW it does not work, we should not do it, and so there should be no need for a moral debate.

    I think a lot of the "debate" is ignorance born and is largely cause by a lack of...shall we say...sophistication in a lot of Americans. A lot of americans have trouble with complex concepts. If somebody is not doing what you want them to, in this case telling you what you want to know, you MAKE them. The idea that it is not as simple as spanking a child for misbehaving is completely and utterly beyond them. Your child keeps running in the street, you spank them for running in the street, they stop running in the street. Simple.

    The reality, though, is that there is a HUGE difference between using negative reinforcement like that on a child and using it on an adult to get information. The 2 are not really comparable.

    If you need more evidence of this, look at the whole "border fence" fiasco. We had a problem with illegal aliens crossing the border, and the best solution they could come up with was to put up a fence. I mean, after all, the fence keeps the neighbors dog out of your back yard, right? Therefore 6 ft of chain link should surely be enough to keep all those dirty wetbacks south of the border.

    They dont have enough abstract reasoning ability to realize that you can climb most fences, or tunnel under them, or cut them. You can cut through a chain link fence with a $3 pair of pliers. We dont generally climb fences or cut them because we have been taught not to...we have been taught to respect those boundaries...not because it is actually difficult to circumvent them.

    This is, IMO, the single biggest problem in the US today. The nitwits have become so numerous they have become a voting block and are able to field their own candidates. Look at most issues in American politics anymore. On the one side you typically have folks with a workable plan. It is not always the BEST plan...usually some crappy compromise, but it is a workable plan. On the other side you have a really simple plan that is completely and totally devoid of anything that resembles logic. They usually have the facts ALL wrong, and there is no possible way to examine the facts and come to the conclusion that they have.

    It is the retard voting block and it has grown...a lot...not much longer and they will be a majority. Then we will torture the hell out of everybody, only tax the poor, double defense spending, and cut all social programs so the starving masses kill and eat us. Life will be GREAT then!!!

    Well, America is a strange country in the sense that you have brilliant people, top universities and research institutes where an intellectual class does excellent research in many fields.
    On the other hand you have a huge mass of ignorant, dumb, bigoted, chauvinistic, xenophobic, foaming at the mouth 'patriots' ( Tea Party storm troopers ) This is just what Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and now the new generation of Republicans founded with money by the Koch brothers need.

    I remember watching on TV during the past presidential election campaign Americans being interviewed and wow!I couldn't believe how ignorant, how bigoted so many of them were. These people have no qualms in supporting torture, and giving up their human rights if the flag is waved in front of their eyes and simplistic slogans shouted in their ears.

    The federal American political system has become totally disfunctional IMHO. Obama's persistent mistake has been to try to have a dialogue with his political opponents and to find common ground for the sake of the country.
    Last edited by Winston Smith; 12-02-2011 at 05:38 AM.

  12. #27
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    It both brings me joy and sadness to hear you mention Abu Grab. My MP brigade ran Abu Grab in OIF 1. It wasnt until OIF 2 that the CIA and National Guard MPs took over that the madness began.
    Yes, anyone with a brain knows torture is wrong and pointless.
    In my opinion the CIA is an evil organization that should be disbanded, however that should be a whole new thread.
    "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security." - Ben Franklin
    “If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy” - James Madison
    "Those who believe absurdities can be made to commit atrocities" - Voltaire
    "What if the people wake up?" - Ron Paul

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    You are a funny guy.

    I offered you a hands on definition of torture. But if you prefer otherwise then, what about looking up 'torture' in a dictionary and, if after doing so you still are of the opinion that waterboarding does not meet the definition of torture, then ...

    as daewo said ''the nitwits have become so numerous" and they vote
    That is not an argument.
    Morals are a religious Myth.. - Xcaliber
    How is Evil Immoral? - Xcaliber
    I am right until you prove otherwise - Xcaliber

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAMP1980 View Post
    It both brings me joy and sadness to hear you mention Abu Grab. My MP brigade ran Abu Grab in OIF 1. It wasnt until OIF 2 that the CIA and National Guard MPs took over that the madness began.
    Yes, anyone with a brain knows torture is wrong and pointless.
    In my opinion the CIA is an evil organization that should be disbanded, however that should be a whole new thread.
    I am not sure that the abuses that happened there would have occurred if the prison had still been staffed by regular army as opposed to national guard troops. I am not trying to disparage NG troops, but they are not as well trained as regular army troops and in my experience are often hesitant to do anything that might be considered making waves.

    For the most part regular army troops have been well indoctrinated in the fact that we do not torture and WHY we do not torture. Coupled with the almost pathological need that most regular army troops have to cover their butts on the bureaucratic end, I think we can at least say for sure that had the CIA tried to implement those programs using regular army, the decision would have been closely examined by everybody up the chain of command, possibly to the joint chiefs, and the full implications of those actions would have also been closely examined.
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

  15. #30
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    Thumbs up I couldn't agree more

    Quote Originally Posted by USAMP1980 View Post
    It both brings me joy and sadness to hear you mention Abu Grab. My MP brigade ran Abu Grab in OIF 1. It wasnt until OIF 2 that the CIA and National Guard MPs took over that the madness began.
    Yes, anyone with a brain knows torture is wrong and pointless.
    In my opinion the CIA is an evil organization that should be disbanded, however that should be a whole new thread.
    Yes, anyone with a brain knows torture is wrong and pointless.
    and the corollary is : anyone without a brain, asks for a definition


    I read a long in depth article in The New Yorker about the goings on in Abu Grhaib. It wasn't the Army that instigated the torture there but the CIA that since the time of the Clinton administration had engaged in torture in foreign countries (rendition) such as Egypt.
    That the Army lent itself to such practices is reproachable. In the end the CIA agents got scot free for the Obama administration decided to look the other way and not to investigate and prosecute the torturers and those in higher positions for their wrongdoings.
    As usual the only ones prosecuted for Abu Ghraib were the dupes who wielded the whip and stupidly even broadcast photos of their actions.

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