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Thread: Why Is the U.S. So Stupid When ...

  1. #1
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    Why Is the U.S. So Stupid When ...

    Korea is so, so very smart:
    Is finance a game, or is it much more important than that?

    It should be something else entirely. Finance ought to provide an economy with an efficient means of allocating capital. It should provide a means of price discovery of assets, whether real or financial. It should provide a safe and reliable payments system. Financial innovations are worthwhile if, and only if, they help in those areas.

    All too often, players see financial innovations as providing ways to manipulate the system and make money off less savvy traders. If the players are caught, the scheme is usually deemed too complicated and wrongdoing too hard to prove to justify any more than a civil case. That ends in a fine — sometimes a large one — but perhaps one that may be seen as a cost of doing business.

    In South Korea, they seem to be adopting a different attitude.

    This week prosecutors in Seoul announced indictments on market manipulation charges of a Korean affiliate of Deutsche Bank and of four Deutsche Bank employees who were blamed for intentionally causing a sudden collapse in Korean stock prices last November.

    In a separate case in June, two former Credit Suisse employees were indicted by Korean prosecutors on charges of manipulating stock prices. The bank itself was not charged with a crime.


    People could go to prison for playing market games.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/26/bu...n-traders.html

    The thieving traders who crashed our nation's stock market should be strung up and disemboweled before they croak.
    Brother, you can believe in stones as long as you do not hurl them at me. Wafa Sultan

    “War is an American way to teach geography,” British soldier

    War is sweet to those who have not tasted it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach. – Pindar

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    Quote Originally Posted by simone View Post
    Korea is so, so very smart:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/26/bu...n-traders.html

    The thieving traders who crashed our nation's stock market should be strung up and disemboweled before they croak.
    A trader cannot steal. You think you have a right to.
    Morals are a religious Myth.. - Xcaliber
    How is Evil Immoral? - Xcaliber
    I am right until you prove otherwise - Xcaliber

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    A trader cannot steal. You think you have a right to.
    You are starting to sound like an anarchist. A trader cannot steal if we believe fraud and misrepresentation are valid aspects of a transaction. It is only through justice that such acts can be prevented. We are experiencing a lack of justice and a growth in transactions where the intent is gain through fraud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pappillion001 View Post
    A trader cannot steal if we believe fraud and misrepresentation are valid aspects of a transaction.
    A trader cannot commit fraud unless we believe fraud and misrepresentation are valid aspects of a trade.

    Quote Originally Posted by pappillion001 View Post
    It is only through justice that such acts can be prevented.
    It is only through justice that theft can be prevented.

    Quote Originally Posted by pappillion001 View Post
    We are experiencing a lack of justice and a growth in transactions where the intent is gain through fraud.
    Fraud implies dishonesty, i.e. lies about what is being traded.
    Morals are a religious Myth.. - Xcaliber
    How is Evil Immoral? - Xcaliber
    I am right until you prove otherwise - Xcaliber

  5. #5
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    Playing a market game is a matter of manipulating the market so that one can profit and cause others to lose. For example, Goldman Sachs had a computer program which could act in a split second to buy millions of shares on a minute decrease in price and go right back to sell them en mass when the price rose above their original purchase price.

    The profit may have been only pennies a share, but when millions of shares were involved in the transaction, a huge profit could be realized, at the expense of other traders.
    Brother, you can believe in stones as long as you do not hurl them at me. Wafa Sultan

    “War is an American way to teach geography,” British soldier

    War is sweet to those who have not tasted it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach. – Pindar

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    Quote Originally Posted by simone View Post
    Playing a market game is a matter of manipulating the market so that one can profit and cause others to lose. For example, Goldman Sachs had a computer program which could act in a split second to buy millions of shares on a minute decrease in price and go right back to sell them en mass when the price rose above their original purchase price.

    The profit may have been only pennies a share, but when millions of shares were involved in the transaction, a huge profit could be realized, at the expense of other traders.
    lol, that's the exact same economics as the rest of the world; just faster.

    When goldman sachs bought the shares they should have no guarantee that they can sell them again, or that the stock price would return.

    You can't buy shares that aren't for sale, and if a company put shares on the market they cannot complain that someone bought them.

    So who's the victim of this computer program? People who wanted to do the same thing but the program beat them to it?
    Morals are a religious Myth.. - Xcaliber
    How is Evil Immoral? - Xcaliber
    I am right until you prove otherwise - Xcaliber

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    lol, that's the exact same economics as the rest of the world; just faster.

    When goldman sachs bought the shares they should have no guarantee that they can sell them again, or that the stock price would return.

    You can't buy shares that aren't for sale, and if a company put shares on the market they cannot complain that someone bought them.

    So who's the victim of this computer program? People who wanted to do the same thing but the program beat them to it?
    Brilliant! Really brilliant, freedom! So who has the bucks to stop Goldman Sachs from selling stock at a good price?
    Brother, you can believe in stones as long as you do not hurl them at me. Wafa Sultan

    “War is an American way to teach geography,” British soldier

    War is sweet to those who have not tasted it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach. – Pindar

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    Quote Originally Posted by simone View Post
    Brilliant! Really brilliant, freedom! So who has the bucks to stop Goldman Sachs from selling stock at a good price?
    Why do they need to be stopped from selling at a good price?
    Morals are a religious Myth.. - Xcaliber
    How is Evil Immoral? - Xcaliber
    I am right until you prove otherwise - Xcaliber

  9. #9
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    Goldman Sachs doesn't need to be stopped from buying and selling stock, they need to be stopped from dominating the stock market and manipulating it to ruin the little investor and wipe out 401Ks.
    Brother, you can believe in stones as long as you do not hurl them at me. Wafa Sultan

    “War is an American way to teach geography,” British soldier

    War is sweet to those who have not tasted it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach. – Pindar

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by simone View Post
    Goldman Sachs doesn't need to be stopped from buying and selling stock, they need to be stopped from dominating the stock market and manipulating it to ruin the little investor and wipe out 401Ks.
    I don't recognize a difference when the only difference you could point to is dominating is buying and selling stock very well.
    Morals are a religious Myth.. - Xcaliber
    How is Evil Immoral? - Xcaliber
    I am right until you prove otherwise - Xcaliber

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    A trader cannot commit fraud unless we believe fraud and misrepresentation are valid aspects of a trade.
    Do we?

    It is only through justice that theft can be prevented.
    Theft of justice prevents nothing.

    Fraud implies dishonesty, i.e. lies about what is being traded.
    Fraud includes misrepresentation and failure to disclose material facts, both are dishonest but not necessarily a lie.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by simone View Post
    Goldman Sachs doesn't need to be stopped from buying and selling stock, they need to be stopped from dominating the stock market and manipulating it to ruin the little investor and wipe out 401Ks.
    Greed is not a crime. Understanding a business and developing the means to maximize its potential is 7 out of 10 times viewed negatively usually by those that were negatively impacted and unsurprisingly probably the same who profited see it as being savvy.

    People will cry for an equal playing field as long as it gives them an advantage they did not have before or it has no effect on them. Now do I think a handful of companies with questionable ethical standards should have that type of influence over financial markets? No, but I can't fault them for playing within the rules that have been established.

    Wiping out 401ks is counterproductive for a company like Goldman. Afterall where do you think those managed accounts are held and they aren't mostly cash accounts, but securities. Wiping them out means no fees which is a primary source of their revenue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pappillion001 View Post
    Do we?
    I do not, those who wish to violate the rights of traders do; by confusing fraud and trade they make laws against the later excusing this with the former.

    Quote Originally Posted by pappillion001 View Post
    Theft of justice prevents nothing.
    ???

    Quote Originally Posted by pappillion001 View Post
    Fraud includes misrepresentation and failure to disclose material facts, both are dishonest but not necessarily a lie.
    Much is implied by what you are selling.
    Morals are a religious Myth.. - Xcaliber
    How is Evil Immoral? - Xcaliber
    I am right until you prove otherwise - Xcaliber

  14. #14
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    In other words, ethics in the marketplace is verboten.
    Brother, you can believe in stones as long as you do not hurl them at me. Wafa Sultan

    “War is an American way to teach geography,” British soldier

    War is sweet to those who have not tasted it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach. – Pindar

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by simone View Post
    In other words, ethics in the marketplace is verboten.
    In other words, the nature of the market place is the result of ethics. It is the inevitable result of non-force, interaction only by cooperation.
    Morals are a religious Myth.. - Xcaliber
    How is Evil Immoral? - Xcaliber
    I am right until you prove otherwise - Xcaliber

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