Page 5 of 15 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 221

Thread: The intellectual basis on which to blame Democrats for million of dead people

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    421
    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    WRONG. Oh, so laughably, stupidly WRONG. Jefferson did not seek freedom FROM government. He saw the government as an essential ingredient to freedom and liberty. You cannot be out pursuing happiness if you have to stay at home 24/7 and guard your wife and kids against marauding bands of pirates. The primary job of Jeffersons government was to protect the people.

    Actually Jefferson was 100% oppposed to government. It was the only reason behind his entire political life. It is the reason he formed the Republican Party in 1794. He became the blood enemy to Washington Hamilton and Adams over this. Here are 100 quotes to get you started with the very most basics about American History:

    " the natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to grain ground; that the greater the government the stronger the exploiter and the weaker the producer; that , therefore, the hope of liberty depends upon local self-governance and the vigilance of the producer class."


    -That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.
    "The path we have to pursue[when Jefferson was President ] is so quiet that we have nothing scarcely to propose to our Legislature."

    -The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

    -The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.

    " the natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to grain ground; that the greater the government the stronger the exploiter and the weaker the producer; that , therefore, the hope of liberty depends upon local self-governance and the vigilance of the producer class."


    -A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor (read-taxes) and bread it has earned -- this is the sum of good government.

    -Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

    -History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is.

    -I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.

    -I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

    -My reading of history convinces me that bad government results from too much government.

    -Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence.

    -Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.

    -The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.

    -Most bad government has grown out of too much government.

    -Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread.

    -Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

    -I think myself that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious
    "Agriculture, manufactures, commerce and navigation, the four
    pillars of our prosperity, are the most thriving when left most
    free to individual enterprise. Protection from casual
    embarrassments, however, may sometimes be seasonably interposed."
    --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801.

    "The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens
    free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits."
    --Thomas Jefferson to M. L'Hommande, 1787.

    "[Ours is a] policy of not embarking the public in enterprises
    better managed by individuals, and which might occupy as much
    of our time as those political duties for which the public functionaries are particularly instituted. Some money could be
    lent them [the New Orleans Canal Co.], but only on an assurance that it would be employed so as to secure the public objects."
    --Thomas Jefferson to W. C. C. Claiborne, 1808.

    "The rights of the people to the exercise and fruits of their own industry can never be protected against the selfishness of rulers
    not subject to their control at short periods." --Thomas Jefferson
    to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1816.

    "Our wish is that...[there be] maintained that state of property,
    equal or unequal, which results to every man from his own industry
    or that of his fathers." --Thomas Jefferson: 2nd Inaugural
    Address, 1805.

    "To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father's has acquired too much, in order to spare to
    others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of
    association--the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it." --Thomas Jefferson: Note
    in Tracy's "Political Economy," 1816.

    "Private enterprise manages so much better all the concerns to which it is equal." --Thomas Jefferson: 6th Annual Message, 1806.

    "The merchants will manage [commerce] the better, the more they are left free to manage for themselves." --Thomas Jefferson to Gideon Granger, 1800.


    "If ever this vast country is brought under a single government, it will be one of the most extensive corruption, indifferent and incapable of a wholesome care over so wide a spread of surface." --Thomas Jefferson to William T. Barry, 1822. ME 15:389


    Some] seem to think that [civilization's] advance has brought on too complicated a state of society, and that we should gain in happiness by treading back our steps a little way. I think, myself, that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious. I believe it might be much simplified to the relief of those who maintain it." --Thomas Jefferson to William Ludlow, 1824. ME 16:75

    "Agriculture, manufactures, commerce and navigation, the four pillars of our prosperity, are the most thriving when left most free to individual enterprise. Protection from casual embarrassments, however, may sometimes be seasonably interposed." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801. ME 3:337

    "The power given to Congress by the Constitution does not extend to the internal regulation of the commerce of a State (that is to say, of the commerce between citizen and citizen) which remain exclusively with its own legislature, but to its external commerce only; that is to say, its commerce with another State, or with foreign nations, or with the Indian tribes." --Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on Bank, 1791. ME 3:147

    "Our tenet ever was that Congress had not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but were restrained to those specifically enumerated, and that, as it was never meant that they should provide for that welfare but by the exercise of the enumerated powers, so it could not have been meant they should raise money for purposes which the enumeration did not place under their action; consequently, that the specification of powers is a limitation of the purposes for which they may raise money. ." - Thomas Jefferson


    "The government of the United States [federal government] is a definite government confined to specified objects [powers]. It is not like state governments, whose powers are more general. CHARITY IS NO PART OF THE LEGISLATIVE DUTY OF THE GOVERNMENT."
    -James madison

    Jefferson: "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."

    Patrick Henry
    Tell me when did liberty ever exist when the sword and the purse were given up?

    Thomas Jefferson
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."


    I see,... and with the deepest affliction, the rapid strides with which the federal branch of our government is advancing towards the usurpation of all the rights reserved to the States, and the consolidation in itself of all powers, foreign and domestic; and that, too, by constructions which, if legitimate, leave no limits to their power... It is but too evident that the three ruling branches of [the Federal government] are in combination to strip their colleagues, the State authorities, of the powers reserved by them, and to exercise themselves all functions foreign and domestic."
    -- Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1825. The Writings of Thomas Jefferson

    James Madison: "If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one, but an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions."
    James Madison: "The government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specific objectives. It is not like state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."
    James Madison in Federalist paper NO. 45: "The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce."


    I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." - Benjamin Franklin


    "The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself." - Benjamin Franklin

    One single object... [will merit] the endless gratitude of the society: that of restraining the judges from usurping legislation.
    Thomas Jefferson, letter to Edward Livingston, March 25, 1825
    Our peculiar security is in the possession of a written Constitution. Let us not make it a blank paper by construction.
    Thomas Jefferson, letter to Wilson Nicholas, September 7, 1803


    That these are our grievances which we have thus laid before his majesty, with that freedom of language and sentiment which becomes a free people claiming their rights as derived from the laws of nature, andnot as the gift of their chief magistrate.
    Thomas Jefferson, Rights of British America,
    1774



    The principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.
    Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Taylor, May 28, 1816

    They are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose. To consider the latter phrase not as describing the purpose of the first, but as giving a distinct and independent power to do any act they please which may be good for the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless. It would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase, that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and as they sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please...Certainly no such universal power was meant to be given them. It was intended to lace them up straightly within the enumerated powers and those without which, as means, these powers could not be carried into effect.
    Thomas Jefferson, Opinion on National Bank, 1791

    James Madison:
    A just security to property is not afforded by that government under which unequal taxes oppress one species of property and reward another species; where arbitrary taxes invade the domestic sanctuaries of the rich and excessive taxes grind the faces of the poor; where the keenness and competitions of want are deemed an insufficient spur to labor and taxes are again applied by an unfeeling policy as another spur; in violation of that sacred property, which Heaven, in decreeing man to earn his bread by the sweat of his brow, kindly reserved to him in the small repose that could be spared from the supply of his necessities.

  2. #62
    poet Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    OF course if so why be so afraid to tell us why Jefferson was ignorant to create American around the concept freedom or liberty from governemnt?? What does your fear tell you about liberalism?
    Oh, I'm a liberal, through and through. Wouldn't have it any other way.
    And no need to distort the viewpoint of Jefferson to promote your own agenda. It was liberty from British Rule, without proper representation...the basic tenet of our Declaration of Independence.
    Wayne Besen addressed my view on Huff Post...admin forgive me for posting it in its' entirety. It's too good to truncate.
    Wayne Besen: In Defense of Liberalism

    It is campaign season, once again, which means conservatives, will try to paint Democrats as "liberals," as if it were a dirty word. I, for one, am proud to be a liberal and believe we should stand up against these conservative smears.One of the great fallacies in modern lore is that liberalism stands for nothing and liberals have no core beliefs. The right wing, from the Pope to the President, has impugned the left by unfairly portraying it as a valueless movement mired in moral relativism.

    This could not be further from the truth. Indeed, the left is the backbone of freedom, the defender of personal liberty, the guarantor of free speech and religious worship and the nurturer of democratic movements across the globe. Far from believing in nothing, wherever liberal democratic values prevail, civilizations flourish and free people thrive.
    The cornerstone of liberalism is the idea that each person is endowed with the precious gift of liberty and can freely choose his or her own path - for better or worse. We believe this is crucial to greater enlightenment, personal growth and ultimate fulfillment. It also offers the best opportunity for people to realize their dreams and achieve their spiritual promise.

    Liberalism encourages exploration and education. It reveres science and celebrates the inquisitive mind. Indeed, liberal values are often superior to those held on the right, because they are tenaciously subjected to rigorous examination. Beliefs that are questioned and still prevail are the ones that stand the test of time.
    Like conservatism, liberalism has very strong core principles. But unlike conservatism, liberalism is not afraid to question "the way it is." The fulcrum of this philosophy is that all ideas will be constantly examined, scrutinized, studied and debated. If new information emerges to counter the culture's prevailing values or understanding, it will be rightfully taken into account. Far from moral relativism, liberalism searches for the ultimate value in which to build a moral foundation: Truth.
    Right wing movements across the globe often seem uninterested in truth if it contradicts their obdurate belief systems. Reality averse, they are woefully unable to adjust to new understandings, burgeoning ideas and cultural awakenings. For example, despite overwhelming evidence that women are the equals of men, they still can't drive or vote in some Muslim countries. In America, gay people are still treated as second-class citizens, even though mountains of science and empirical evidence suggest that homosexuality is as biologically ingrained as eye color or handedness.
    Liberals believe in the power of "reason," while conservatives are often just plain reactionary. This is why the GOP is the party of the "southern strategy" and anti-gay subterfuge. Republican power is directly related to fertilizing fear and fomenting fanaticism.
    Indeed, the great appeal of modern conservatism, or other forms of authoritarianism, is that people don't have to think for themselves. They can mentally "check out" of this world and place their worries in the hands of a commanding politician or a higher deity.Modern conservatives are often discomfited by the complexities of life and demand answers to the world's many unanswerable questions. They arrogantly and disingenuously claim to have absolute truth, while liberalism boldly proclaims that it does not have such ubiquitous powers of understanding. Liberalism is for those who are unafraid to fully embrace the magnificent journey of life and tackle the great mysteries of our time.If one looks at modern conservatism in the United States, it is easy to see that it is a movement of intellectual and spiritual atrophy. In the political realm, conservatives essentially call for judges who are "strict constructionists," which is shorthand for saying "the Constitution is a dead document."What a monumentally ridiculous notion to put forth, that American jurisprudence has not evolved in more than two centuries! Do strict constructionists believe that women and African Americans should have their rights restricted because the nation's founders treated women as second-class citizens and owned slaves?Likewise, modern conservatives have also rendered the Bible (or Koran) "dead documents." In conservative houses of worship, traditionalists put forth the untenable belief that holy books are literal. They call these books "God's Plan," as if the Creator hasn't had a new thought in a couple of thousand years.
    Modern conservatives will claim that liberals are sacrilegious for holding such beliefs. To the contrary, liberals are often extraordinarily religious or spiritual people. However, they diverge with conservatives in that they believe the strongest faith is one that is subject to healthy skepticism and painstaking examination. In encouraging people to explore all faiths -- free of guilt, shame, coercion or fear -- liberalism also offers people the greatest number spiritual options.Many of my columns deal with gay themes because equality for gay men and women is the civil rights issue of the new Millennium. However, gay rights mean nearly as much to heterosexuals as they do for homosexuals. The very peace and prosperity of nations can be easily predicted by looking at how they relate to their gay citizens.If a country treats gay people with dignity and respect and offers them equality, it signals that the country bases its decisions on sound education, rationalism and science. This inevitably leads towards success in all spheres of life.Countries that ostracize and penalize homosexuals tend to be superstitious, authoritarian and anti-intellectual. This almost uniformly leads to poverty, war, oppression and ultimately tyranny.

    A cynic might argue that the United States is not as gay friendly as other countries, yet, it is the richest country in the world. True, but nearly all of America's cities and states that are centers of profit and creativity offer acceptance for homosexuals. States most hostile to gay people are relatively backwards, with lower levels of education and income. Places that offer acceptance signal that they are open-minded and looking towards the future. Locales that reject homosexuals indicate that they are stuck in the past -- at their own peril.

    In essence, gay rights are the canary in the coal mine for freedom and prosperity. Unfortunately, the bird is hacking, signaling a period of increased oppression and a dangerous erosion of freedom. It is up to us to rescue this nation from the perilous path it is now on. It is time we proudly stand up for what we believe in. If we don't defend our values, our opponents will define them.
    Progressive does not mean passive. Our compassion does not mean that we lack passion. Our respect for other beliefs does not signify that we don't hold strong beliefs of our own that we are willing to fight for. Indeed, our power comes from out ability to adjust to reality. We are secure in our values, yet humble enough to adapt if our viewpoints are proven obsolete. Wherever liberal democracy takes root, a strong and proud record of economic, moral, social and political achievement follows.



    Now, address that!

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    421
    Quote Originally Posted by poet View Post
    And no need to distort the viewpoint of Jefferson to promote your own agenda. It was liberty from British Rule, without proper representation...the basic tenet of our Declaration of Independence.
    you're a liberal so 100% confused I'm sorry. It is the literal definition of liberalism. There was the first Revolution that Federalists thought was against the government of England, and the Second American Revolution of 1800 (Jefferson's election) to establish that the first Revolution had really been against all government not just the British government. Now you know your ABC's and what freedom and liberty mean in America!


    The revolution of 1800... was as real a revolution in the principles of our government as that of 1776 was in its form; not effected indeed by the sword, as that, but by the rational and peaceable instrument of reform, the suffrage of the people." --Thomas Jefferson to Spencer Roane, 1819. ME 15:212

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,178
    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Actually Jefferson was 100% oppposed to government. It was the only reason behind his entire political life. It is the reason he formed the Republican Party in 1794. He became the blood enemy to Washington Hamilton and Adams over this. Here are 100 quotes to get you started with the very most basics about American History:

    " the natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to grain ground; that the greater the government the stronger the exploiter and the weaker the producer; that , therefore, the hope of liberty depends upon local self-governance and the vigilance of the producer class."


    -That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.
    "The path we have to pursue[when Jefferson was President ] is so quiet that we have nothing scarcely to propose to our Legislature."

    -The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

    -The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.

    " the natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to grain ground; that the greater the government the stronger the exploiter and the weaker the producer; that , therefore, the hope of liberty depends upon local self-governance and the vigilance of the producer class."


    -A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor (read-taxes) and bread it has earned -- this is the sum of good government.

    -Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

    -History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is.

    -I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.

    -I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

    -My reading of history convinces me that bad government results from too much government.

    -Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence.

    -Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.

    -The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.

    -Most bad government has grown out of too much government.

    -Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread.

    -Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

    -I think myself that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious
    "Agriculture, manufactures, commerce and navigation, the four
    pillars of our prosperity, are the most thriving when left most
    free to individual enterprise. Protection from casual
    embarrassments, however, may sometimes be seasonably interposed."
    --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801.

    "The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens
    free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits."
    --Thomas Jefferson to M. L'Hommande, 1787.

    "[Ours is a] policy of not embarking the public in enterprises
    better managed by individuals, and which might occupy as much
    of our time as those political duties for which the public functionaries are particularly instituted. Some money could be
    lent them [the New Orleans Canal Co.], but only on an assurance that it would be employed so as to secure the public objects."
    --Thomas Jefferson to W. C. C. Claiborne, 1808.

    "The rights of the people to the exercise and fruits of their own industry can never be protected against the selfishness of rulers
    not subject to their control at short periods." --Thomas Jefferson
    to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1816.

    "Our wish is that...[there be] maintained that state of property,
    equal or unequal, which results to every man from his own industry
    or that of his fathers." --Thomas Jefferson: 2nd Inaugural
    Address, 1805.

    "To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father's has acquired too much, in order to spare to
    others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of
    association--the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it." --Thomas Jefferson: Note
    in Tracy's "Political Economy," 1816.

    "Private enterprise manages so much better all the concerns to which it is equal." --Thomas Jefferson: 6th Annual Message, 1806.

    "The merchants will manage [commerce] the better, the more they are left free to manage for themselves." --Thomas Jefferson to Gideon Granger, 1800.


    "If ever this vast country is brought under a single government, it will be one of the most extensive corruption, indifferent and incapable of a wholesome care over so wide a spread of surface." --Thomas Jefferson to William T. Barry, 1822. ME 15:389


    Some] seem to think that [civilization's] advance has brought on too complicated a state of society, and that we should gain in happiness by treading back our steps a little way. I think, myself, that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious. I believe it might be much simplified to the relief of those who maintain it." --Thomas Jefferson to William Ludlow, 1824. ME 16:75

    "Agriculture, manufactures, commerce and navigation, the four pillars of our prosperity, are the most thriving when left most free to individual enterprise. Protection from casual embarrassments, however, may sometimes be seasonably interposed." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801. ME 3:337

    "The power given to Congress by the Constitution does not extend to the internal regulation of the commerce of a State (that is to say, of the commerce between citizen and citizen) which remain exclusively with its own legislature, but to its external commerce only; that is to say, its commerce with another State, or with foreign nations, or with the Indian tribes." --Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on Bank, 1791. ME 3:147

    "Our tenet ever was that Congress had not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but were restrained to those specifically enumerated, and that, as it was never meant that they should provide for that welfare but by the exercise of the enumerated powers, so it could not have been meant they should raise money for purposes which the enumeration did not place under their action; consequently, that the specification of powers is a limitation of the purposes for which they may raise money. ." - Thomas Jefferson


    "The government of the United States [federal government] is a definite government confined to specified objects [powers]. It is not like state governments, whose powers are more general. CHARITY IS NO PART OF THE LEGISLATIVE DUTY OF THE GOVERNMENT."
    -James madison

    Jefferson: "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."

    Patrick Henry
    Tell me when did liberty ever exist when the sword and the purse were given up?

    Thomas Jefferson
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."


    I see,... and with the deepest affliction, the rapid strides with which the federal branch of our government is advancing towards the usurpation of all the rights reserved to the States, and the consolidation in itself of all powers, foreign and domestic; and that, too, by constructions which, if legitimate, leave no limits to their power... It is but too evident that the three ruling branches of [the Federal government] are in combination to strip their colleagues, the State authorities, of the powers reserved by them, and to exercise themselves all functions foreign and domestic."
    -- Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1825. The Writings of Thomas Jefferson

    James Madison: "If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one, but an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions."
    James Madison: "The government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specific objectives. It is not like state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."
    James Madison in Federalist paper NO. 45: "The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce."


    I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." - Benjamin Franklin


    "The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself." - Benjamin Franklin

    One single object... [will merit] the endless gratitude of the society: that of restraining the judges from usurping legislation.
    Thomas Jefferson, letter to Edward Livingston, March 25, 1825
    Our peculiar security is in the possession of a written Constitution. Let us not make it a blank paper by construction.
    Thomas Jefferson, letter to Wilson Nicholas, September 7, 1803


    That these are our grievances which we have thus laid before his majesty, with that freedom of language and sentiment which becomes a free people claiming their rights as derived from the laws of nature, andnot as the gift of their chief magistrate.
    Thomas Jefferson, Rights of British America,
    1774



    The principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.
    Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Taylor, May 28, 1816

    They are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose. To consider the latter phrase not as describing the purpose of the first, but as giving a distinct and independent power to do any act they please which may be good for the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless. It would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase, that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and as they sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please...Certainly no such universal power was meant to be given them. It was intended to lace them up straightly within the enumerated powers and those without which, as means, these powers could not be carried into effect.
    Thomas Jefferson, Opinion on National Bank, 1791

    James Madison:
    A just security to property is not afforded by that government under which unequal taxes oppress one species of property and reward another species; where arbitrary taxes invade the domestic sanctuaries of the rich and excessive taxes grind the faces of the poor; where the keenness and competitions of want are deemed an insufficient spur to labor and taxes are again applied by an unfeeling policy as another spur; in violation of that sacred property, which Heaven, in decreeing man to earn his bread by the sweat of his brow, kindly reserved to him in the small repose that could be spared from the supply of his necessities.
    No0t one single thing you posted here does anything at ALL to prove your point, and they ALL prove mine. At no point does Jefferson call for the abolition of government. He wants it strictly subordinate to the people.

    Jefferson understood what you are apparently not bright enough to grasp. Without government, there can be do liberty, no freedom, no prosperity.

    BTW.....are you really stupid enough to think this quote from Franklin is not bogus:

    "The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself." - Benjamin Franklin
    Hint....he was involved in both the writing of the declaration of independence (where they talk about the pursuit of happiness) and the constitution (where it does not appear).

    Pathetic.
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    421
    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    No0t one single thing you posted here does anything at ALL to prove your point, and they ALL prove mine. At no point does Jefferson call for the abolition of government. He wants it strictly subordinate to the people.

    yes genius Jefferson was not an anarchist, duh, but he did found the Republican party in 1794 to start the Second American Revolution because even in 1794 he thought the tiny government was too big!! He hated Washington Hamilton and Adams( liberal Federalist) and of course Hamilton ended up dead in the battle.


    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    start a revolution
    yes he called it the "Second American Revolution" and now you too know all about it and brainwashing you got in liberal government schools.


    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    Jefferson understood what you are apparently not bright enough to grasp. Without government, there can be do liberty, no freedom, no prosperity.
    duh, Jefferson was a Republican, not an anarchist and 1=1=2


    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    BTW.....are you really stupid enough to think this quote from Franklin is not bogus:
    trying to change the subject are we? I wonder why?
    Does the "logic bomber" want to be a liberal all his life?

  6. #66
    poet Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    you're a liberal so 100% confused I'm sorry. It is the literal definition of liberalism. There was the first Revolution that Federalists thought was against the government of England, and the Second American Revolution of 1800 (Jefferson's election) to establish that the first Revolution had really been against all government not just the British government. Now you know your ABC's and what freedom and liberty mean in America!


    The revolution of 1800... was as real a revolution in the principles of our government as that of 1776 was in its form; not effected indeed by the sword, as that, but by the rational and peaceable instrument of reform, the suffrage of the people." --Thomas Jefferson to Spencer Roane, 1819. ME 15:212
    The blind leading the blind. I took American History and passed with flying colors.

    Uh, problem with : http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wayne-..._b_116941.html ?

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    3,021
    Jefferson was a Liberal.. During his first term Political parties formed, Jefferson's party was called the Republican Party, the other Party was the Federalist Party. The Republican Party of that Time ( 1790's) Later became what is today the Democratic Party., Jefferson was no Conservative by any means.
    "You're too stupid to be saved." -- EasyRider.


    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
    Epicurus

  8. #68
    poet Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Xcaliber View Post
    Jefferson was a Liberal.. During his first term Political parties formed, Jefferson's party was called the Republican Party, the other Party was the Federalist Party. The Republican Party of that Time ( 1790's) Later became what is today the Democratic Party., Jefferson was no Conservative by any means.
    The g.d. Tories were the conservatives. Brutus obviously is doing crack.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tory

    Conservatism emerged by the end of the 18th century—which synthesised moderate Whig positions and some of the old Tory values to create a new political ideology, in opposition to the French Revolution. The likes of Edmund Burke and William Pitt the Younger led the way in this. Due to this faction eventually leading to the formation of the Conservative Party, members of that party are colloquially referred to as Tories, even if they are not traditionalists. Actual adherents to traditional Toryism in contemporary times tend to be referred to as High Tories to avoid confusion.

    Shame, not to know what one is talking about. Better to be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt, brute'.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    421
    Quote Originally Posted by Xcaliber View Post
    Jefferson was a Liberal.. During his first term Political parties formed, Jefferson's party was called the Republican Party, the other Party was the Federalist Party. The Republican Party of that Time ( 1790's) Later became what is today the Democratic Party., Jefferson was no Conservative by any means.
    of course Jefferson was the most conservative man on earth. He and Madison formed the Republican party in 1792to stand for smaller government. Yes, even in 1792 he was concerned that the government was too big.

    In 1792 Republicans conservatives were opposed to government and today Republican conservatives are opposed to the same thing.

    Liberals hate this because it makes clear that they have no connection to American principles. In fact their real connection is to Marx, but not at all to Jefferson.

  10. #70
    poet Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    of course Jefferson was the most conservative man on earth. He and Madison formed the Republican party in 1792to stand for smaller government. Yes, even in 1792 he was concerned that the government was too big.

    In 1792 Republicans conservatives were opposed to government and today Republican conservatives are opposed to the same thing.

    Liberals hate this because it makes clear that they have no connection to American principles. In fact their real connection is to Marx, but not at all to Jefferson.
    You are delusional. The tories were the conservatives, loyalists, supporting the crown. Jefferson was the epitome of a liberal, XXXXX.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Lancaster, UK
    Posts
    4,892
    Just face it guys, there's no point trying to argue with Brutus, it's pretty clear what definitions of liberal and conservative he is using:
    Liberal: someone Brutus dislikes
    Conservative: someone Brutus likes
    This is because he considers liberalism to be badwrong, and conservatism to be double plus good. He also thinks of himself as good, and therefore conservative, so anything he likes must be conservative and anything he dislikes must be liberal.
    “When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
    “It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
    "It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
    "We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    11,645
    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    of course Jefferson was the most conservative man on earth. He and Madison formed the Republican party in 1792to stand for smaller government. Yes, even in 1792 he was concerned that the government was too big.

    In 1792 Republicans conservatives were opposed to government and today Republican conservatives are opposed to the same thing.

    Liberals hate this because it makes clear that they have no connection to American principles. In fact their real connection is to Marx, but not at all to Jefferson.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jo Bennett
    Just face it guys, there's no point trying to argue with Brutus, it's pretty clear what definitions of liberal and conservative he is using:
    Liberal: someone Brutus dislikes
    Conservative: someone Brutus likes
    This is because he considers liberalism to be badwrong, and conservatism to be double plus good. He also thinks of himself as good, and therefore conservative, so anything he likes must be conservative and anything he dislikes must be liberal.
    Jo is absolutely right. Back in the real world conservative and liberal have a definition which has nothing to do with actual policies but more timeframe. Jefferson, at the time, was a hardcore liberal. He wanted change from the historical past. Now, if you believe in those same ideas that Jefferson did you would be a conservative for those thoughts since they are the current standard.

    Republicans try to hijack Conservative like Democrats hijacked "Liberal" and now "Progressive".

    Jefferson was also not anti-government. That sounds like an anarchist.

  13. #73
    poet Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jo Bennett View Post
    Just face it guys, there's no point trying to argue with Brutus, it's pretty clear what definitions of liberal and conservative he is using:
    Liberal: someone Brutus dislikes
    Conservative: someone Brutus likes
    This is because he considers liberalism to be badwrong, and conservatism to be double plus good. He also thinks of himself as good, and therefore conservative, so anything he likes must be conservative and anything he dislikes must be liberal.
    Thank you for clarifying that, Jo. The truth of the matter is when you argue with a fool, you become one, yourself. Hence, my disengaging the likes of EZrider, Freedom, Gansao, and now Steeeve, among a few others.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Limeyland
    Posts
    7,870
    Quote Originally Posted by poet View Post
    Thank you for clarifying that, Jo. The truth of the matter is when you argue with a fool, you become one, yourself. Hence, my disengaging the likes of EZrider, Freedom, Gansao, and now Steeeve, among a few others.
    You are a liar.You have not disengaged with any of us.

  15. #75
    poet Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by gansao View Post
    You are a liar.You have not disengaged with any of us.
    You're confused. I haven't had an in-depth, meaningful convo with you, because you incapable of such. You let a black gay, 58 year old liberal man put you on the defensive, and leave you at a loss for words. You're so awestruck by my superior intelligence that you can't figure out which way to go. Same with Barack Obama and the Repubs. They just can't wrap their minds around the fact that he is so much smarter than they are. And so they fumble, and stumble, and appear as fools. I can read Latin, make Polish-style potato pancakes, write music and poetry, mix a mean margarita and guacamole, hobnob with stars or paupers, and have white women and white men chasing after me, and can play ping pong with Chinese students. And occasionally I drop down from Mt. Olympus. I'm sure you need an Advil, by now.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •