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Thread: Was Jefferson the First Republican President?

  1. #1
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    Was Jefferson the First Republican President?

    In fact he was, and he stood for exactly what modern Republicans stand for. Does anyone dispute this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    In fact he was, and he stood for exactly what modern Republicans stand for. Does anyone dispute this?
    Generally when one makes a claim there is evidence to support that claim.

    Why don't you start by showing what modern Republicans stand for, and then show what Jefferson stood for.
    My opinions may have changed but not the fact that I am right

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
    Generally when one makes a claim there is evidence to support that claim.

    Why don't you start by showing what modern Republicans stand for, and then show what Jefferson stood for.

    Brutus: modern Republicans stand for freedom and liberty from government while Democrats stand very openly opposed. This is the entire battle of human history.

    Jefferson stood for freedom and liberty too. In fact in 1794 he formed the Republican Party to stand for exactly the same thing even at a time when the federal government was tiny compared to today. Hope that helps you?

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    Jefferson was both the first republican and the first democrat. His party split in 1824. One faction followed Andrew Jackson and became the modern democratic party. The other faction followed John Quincy Adams and became the National Republican party, which evolved into the Whig party, which later joined with the free soilers and became the modern republican party in 1854.
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Brutus: modern Republicans stand for freedom and liberty from government
    That doesn't seem to fit with the actions of modern Republicans. What evidence do you have that modern Republicans actually value either of those things?
    My opinions may have changed but not the fact that I am right

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
    That doesn't seem to fit with the actions of modern Republicans. What evidence do you have that modern Republicans actually value either of those things?
    Brutus: they voted for a Balanced Budget Amendment to the Constitution, tax cuts, against the stimulus, and Obamacare.

    Heck they may even shut down the government. Jefferson would love it all.

    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."-Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Brutus: they voted for a Balanced Budget Amendment to the Constitution, tax cuts, against the stimulus, and Obamacare.
    I thought we were talking about "freedom and liberty from government". As Daewoo told you, government has expanded its power under Republican presidents, so this claim doesn't seem supportable. If you wanted to include "fiscal responsibility" then that is even less supportable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Heck they may even shut down the government. Jefferson would love it all.

    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."-Jefferson
    Jefferson helped create the government. Why would he want it abolished? He never advocated anarchy, iirc. He wanted a limited government, certainly, but not a non-existant one.
    My opinions may have changed but not the fact that I am right

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
    I thought we were talking about "freedom and liberty from government". Given that government has expanded its power under Republican presidents, this claim doesn't seem supportable..
    Brutus: the President is not the entire government so I have no idea what you are talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
    Jefferson helped create the government. Why would he want it abolished? He never advocated anarchy, iirc. He wanted a limited government, certainly, but not a non-existant one.
    Brutus: correct who said he wanted anarchy??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Brutus: the President is not the entire government so I have no idea what you are talking about.
    Fair enough, but when the Republicans control Congress and the Presidency, the government's power was still expanded, and government spending still goes up.

    If modern republicans value a small government, then they don't show it as far as I can see. But perhaps you can show me why you believe modern Republicans value small government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Brutus: correct who said he wanted anarchy??
    Well, if you don't have any government you have anarchy. Didn't you say Jefferson would love it if the government was shut down?
    My opinions may have changed but not the fact that I am right

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Brutus: they voted for a Balanced Budget Amendment to the Constitution, tax cuts, against the stimulus, and Obamacare.

    Uh...they voted for tax cuts in the face of overwhelming federal debt...a move that may well be the end of this nation....so they were being completely and totally irresponsible....as opposed to Jefferson who insisted that the total debt burden for the revolutionary war be paid off within 5 years...and supported the tax increases required to make it happen.

    Modern republicans, who controlled both chambers of congress and the white house during the Bush administration, also passed Bushs prescription drug program...the biggest unfunded entitlement program in the history of the united states.

    Then they passed the wall street bailout...the biggest private sector bailout in the history of the planet earth.

    They increased the federal budget by 104% in 8 years....by comparison, that "socialist" Clinton increased it by 11% in 8 years.

    Private sector subsidies increased by 58%

    At the same time, over 60% of Americans were opposed to increased government spending. Over 70% of Americans supported shrinking the federal government.

    So, they had congress and the white house. The American people were overwhelming supportive when it came to cutting spending and shrinking government.

    And they STILL grew government at the fastest rate since WWII.

    Great Job!!!


    Telling you....stop being a partisan hack. You look silly.
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Brutus: the President is not the entire government so I have no idea what you are talking about.
    BUT, the president is the one guy in government who can say "NO" and make it stick. If he is truly dedicated, for example, to shrinking spending, he can simply say "I will not sign anything that does not include spending cuts" and there is not a whole lot they can do about it.
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

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    Sigma: Fair enough, but when the Republicans control Congress and the Presidency, the government's power was still expanded, and government spending still goes up.

    If modern republicans value a small government, then they don't show it as far as I can see. But perhaps you can show me why you believe modern Republicans value small government.

    Brutus: in 1999 they brought it to a vote in Senate but only 10 Democrats voted for a Balanced Budget Amendment to the Constitution. Last week they did it again and again only 10 Democrats voted for it. But, the 10who voted for it were (80%) up for reelection in 2012 so the tide may be turning. Jefferson the first Republican also stood for no debt and a balanced budget.


    Sigma: Well, if you don't have any government you have anarchy. Didn't you say Jefferson would love it if the government was shut down?[/QUOTE]


    Brutus: Jefferson helped form the government, he was not an anarchist. But, when he formed the Republican Party in 1974 he was concerned, even then, that the government was too big and threatened to get far far bigger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    BUT, the president is the one guy in government who can say "NO" and make it stick. If he is truly dedicated, for example, to shrinking spending, he can simply say "I will not sign anything that does not include spending cuts" and there is not a whole lot they can do about it.

    Brutus: A president generally will not do what will cost him or his party the next election. Democrats and Republicans compromise with each other, and the electorate. Libertarians do not compromise and so do not hold office. You should find that very instructive.

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    Daewoo: Uh...they voted for tax cuts in the face of overwhelming federal debt...a move that may well be the end of this nation....so they were being completely and totally irresponsible...


    Brutus: Bush 2003 tax cuts produced the biggest revenue increases in American History. Sorry!


    Daewoo: As opposed to Jefferson who insisted that the total debt burden for the revolutionary war be paid off within 5 years...and supported the tax increases required to make it happen.


    Brutus: 2003 cuts increased revenue

    Daewoo: Modern republicans, who controlled both chambers of congress and the white house during the Bush administration, also passed Bushs prescription drug program...the biggest unfunded entitlement program in the history of the united states.

    Brutus: the Democrats wanted more spending in that bill!!

    Daewoo: Then they passed the wall street bailout...the biggest private sector bailout in the history of the planet earth.

    Brutus: 1) it saved the country from crisis caused by liberal regulation 2) it was virtually all paid back!!

    Daewoo: They increased the federal budget by 104% in 8 years....by comparison, that "socialist" Clinton increased it by 11% in 8 years.

    Brutus: Clinton inheritied boom from Bush 41, thanks to Perot. Then he inheritied Republican House for first time in 40 years. They made him say, the era of big government is over and shoved Balanced Budget Amendment down his throat." Now you now the true Clinton story. Bush 43 inheritied tech bust, Clinton recession, and 9/11. Now you know true Bush 43 story

    Daewoo: Private sector subsidies increased by 58%
    At the same time, over 60% of Americans were opposed to increased government spending. Over 70% of Americans supported shrinking the federal government.


    Brutus: So????????????????????????

    daewoo: So, they had congress and the white house. The American people were overwhelming supportive when it came to cutting spending and shrinking government.
    And they STILL grew government at the fastest rate since WWII.
    Great Job!!

    Brutus: goof ball polls. BO had a super majority and got nothing of what he wanted!!


    Daewoo: Telling you....stop being a partisan hack. You look silly.


    Brutus: how can Jeffersonian ideas loook silly, except to a fool?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Brutus: Bush 2003 tax cuts produced the biggest revenue increases in American History. Sorry!

    Brutus: 2003 cuts increased revenue
    This is simply not true. In the 8 years prior to the tax cuts, revenue averaged 17..5% of GDP. Since the tax cuts, it has measured 15% of GDP. Not sure who you are getting these lies from...or if you are just making them up, but telling a lie like this about something so easily checked is foolish.

    Brutus: the Democrats wanted more spending in that bill!!
    No, they didnt. They tried to kill that bill.

    Maybe you missed the last 10 years, but what the democrats wanted had pretty much ZERO impact on what happened during the Bush presidency. The republicans controlled both houses of congress and the white house and they would not even let the democrats introduce legislation.

    And they passed the biggest unfunded entitlement program in the history of the united states. If that is not bad enough, they literally let the DRUG COMPANIES write the bill, so the net impact of the bill has been that is has made prescription drugs MORE EXPENSIVE to seniors.

    Brutus: 1) it saved the country from crisis caused by liberal regulation 2) it was virtually all paid back!!
    It didnt "Save" the country from anything, and the idea that the financial crisis was caused by the evil liberals is just plain dumb. What the bailout did was provided a slush funds to keep the big banks going until the fed had a chance to buy all those junk mortgages, thus transferring those losses from the banks to the taxpayer.

    Brutus: Clinton inheritied boom from Bush 41, thanks to Perot. Then he inheritied Republican House for first time in 40 years. They made him say, the era of big government is over and shoved Balanced Budget Amendment down his throat." Now you now the true Clinton story. Bush 43 inheritied tech bust, Clinton recession, and 9/11. Now you know true Bush 43 story
    ROTFLMAO. Clinton inherited a recession, genius. He ran on "Its the economy, stupid!" That is not because the economy was in good shape.

    And the stock markets had recovered from the dot com crash by the time Bush took office. In fact, the average fall was only 7%, and markets recovered that in only 2 months. 12 months after the crash they were actually up 12%.

    Brutus: So????????????????????????
    So your argument that they were just doing what they had to do to stay in office do not hold any water at all. They went against the will of the american people to expand the government.

    We are not even going to discuss how they crapped all over our rights.


    Brutus: goof ball polls. BO had a super majority and got nothing of what he wanted!!
    Really? You really believe that??? Every single change to the white house version of the health care overhaul Obama approved personally. Obama NEVER proposed a single payer system, which lost him the support of a lot of americans who frankly felt like if we were going to overhaul the system we should have gone all the way.

    He got exactly the bill he was after.

    Brutus: how can Jeffersonian ideas loook silly, except to a fool?
    You still have not defined what you think are Jeffersonian ideals, except the childish and idiotic idea that he would have "made liberals illegal".


    BTW...the forum includes and excellent quote function that makes posts easy to navigate. If you need help using it, ask. If you dont use it, I am done reading your posts.
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

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