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Thread: Should France ban the Burka?

  1. #1
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    Should France ban the Burka?

    Where are your thoughts on this issue? Personally, I think they should, but I'd be interested to see where people stand on this.

    When should society stop tolerating religious extremism?
    "They keep talking about drafting a Constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it's worked for over 200 years, and [heck], we're not using it anymore."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooterandproud View Post
    Where are your thoughts on this issue? Personally, I think they should, but I'd be interested to see where people stand on this.

    When should society stop tolerating religious extremism?
    A Burka is a form of religious objects such as a Cross. I find that time and funding let alone XXXXing legislation should be spent on finding the people that SPREAD extremism and terrorist seeds than those who are simply expressing their religion period....

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    I don't think so. It wouldn't be any more reasonable than banning Talliths that Orthodox Jews wear. Even racists and people who advocate psychopathy have rights Western Countries, so I don't think it's that unreasonable to stand up for the right to practice and preach religion, no matter how ridiculous I think it is.
    Last edited by COBHC; 02-10-2010 at 09:21 AM.
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    Hello.

    I have lived the first thirty years of my life in a suburb of Paris where most people come from, or have parents coming from the Maghreb. Islam is the main religion of those who practice. My first girlfriend had algerian and french parents. She never had any trouble with religion, she never seemed to practice any. Later when I was already a young man I mated with a girl whose parents were algerian/morrocan. Islam were supposed to be practiiced at their home but there were mainly a racism problem. Lots of reasons could be invoked to explain this however classic situation. Later she met another "white" man, and eventually stopped with Islam, as viewed by her parents. There we had a little confusion between personal experiences (leading to being a jerk), tradition and religion.

    During those thirty years of being raised in this neighbourhood, I don't think I saw more than a couple of what we call burqa. Women sometimes wear some kind of veils, by the way that's how we generally call this bit of tissue. There is the famous debate: must the veil be really banned from school? Sometimes to entertain us and make us forget more important topics the media get into this again.

    France has for a time colonized a large part of Africa, as you know for sure. Therefore France and the countries of this area have a special relationship, a little bit like the one England can have with India. Colonialism is officially over but links are strong, for different reasons. Migrant waves have been observed, mainly for work of course. We often talk about "integration" but we also have to deal with different cultures. I do think all cultures can bring good ingredients in the soup we are cooking. I think a society cannot be still. Unfortunately there is not only good ingredients.

    The burqa, according to the wikipedia article, is a derived form of the Afghan tchadri, and is about two decades old. I don't think it's a really religious object since it is so young. Actually, even if the classic veil that I'm already used to see is used originally for religious reasons, the reason I've been given ( from the mouth of muslim women of various ages) is that it's a tradition, and not a religious law. Actually it's often a matter of interpretation of the texts, and what one consider to be motivated by religion or not.

    I personnally find the burqa (the real one that covers the whole body) is an insult to women's dignity. Not because it is worn by muslim people but because its obvious intent is to hide the woman away from anybody's eyes. If jews, buddhist, or any other believer wore such a thing, I would say the same thing. I'd also add that women wearing burqa in France represent an infinitesimal percentage of the population. So I guess there is no real debate.

  5. #5
    JPSartre12 Guest
    I think France should ban the burqua. Iíd like to see the US and other countries follow suit. It is nothing more than a visible reminder of the oppression of Muslim women. If Muslims object to this ban, they can leave. Nobody forces anyone to remain in a Western country.
    This may sound extreme to some, but it should be seen as the Westís response to Muslim attempts to foist Sharíia Law on the rest of the world. IMO, if they want to continue their barbaric practices, do it somewhere else. The West shouldnít tolerate intolerance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPSartre12 View Post
    I think France should ban the burqua. Iíd like to see the US and other countries follow suit.
    Even though we have freedom of religion in this country....

    Quote Originally Posted by JPSartre12 View Post
    It is nothing more than a visible reminder of the oppression of Muslim women.
    Maybe to you. But perhaps it has a different meaning within the culture and faith. I'm not well versed in Islamic culture so don't quote me on it, but I think it is just a reminder of outward religious expression.


    Quote Originally Posted by JPSartre12 View Post
    If Muslims object to this ban, they can leave. Nobody forces anyone to remain in a Western country.
    That's a tad harsh. What if they are naturalized born citizens here? Force them to leave? People have a freedom to express their religion whether you agree with it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by JPSartre12 View Post
    This may sound extreme to some, but it should be seen as the Westís response to Muslim attempts to foist Sharíia Law on the rest of the world.
    How is it forcing law upon us? I'm not forced to wear one neither is any female in my family. Point being is it is a choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by JPSartre12 View Post
    IMO, if they want to continue their barbaric practices, do it somewhere else. The West shouldnít tolerate intolerance.
    West? Do you mean ignorant people on Middle Eastern cultures? And how is it barbaric? I don't see women being whipped in the streets of Paris so I think your view is rather narrow on a simple veil or a piece of cloth representing religious expression.

    Like I stated earlier, use time and resources to actually go after those that are extremists, not those simply practicing their faith...

  7. #7
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    As oppressive as I think the Burqa is, banning it would be a blatant violation of the First Amendment.
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." ~ Gerald Ford

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    Quote Originally Posted by COBHC View Post
    As oppressive as I think the Burqa is, banning it would be a blatant violation of the First Amendment.
    Exactly. No one is forcing these women to wear it. It is their choice. And if someone is forcing these Women to be oppressed slap the XXXX out of them.

    There is nothing I hate and loathe more than abuse to women PERIOD.

  9. #9
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    I agree to say it would be a violation of the first amendment.

    But I don't agree when I read that women are not forced to wear the burqa or to follow any tradition or whatever we may call it. Because it's not that simple.

    When you are born and grow up in a family where things are done one way, it's sometimes very hard to realize they can be done another way. I mean that even when women in France or in the States can have the benefit of some laws such as the first amendment, they still live in a family where rules are straight, and most of all, they have been taught that these rules were the norm, no matter what Sarkozy or Obama say on TV.

    I met someone one day who wouldn't sleep on the ground when it didn't bother me at all, because I had to do it before and had no problem with it. That person couldn't accept the simple idea of sleeping elsewhere than in a bed. There is no law against sleeping on the ground. That's the problem with some muslim women and more generally some people: they're used to a straight system and cannot even imagine another one.

    So when women say they wear burqa because they decided to, it's most of the time true, but they rarely ask themselves some questions about WHY they "decided" this. Sometimes we think we have a choicewhen we don't really have any, because of a mind and/or religious setup.
    Last edited by olivortex; 02-12-2010 at 06:15 AM. Reason: extra word

  10. #10
    JPSartre12 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by jazyjason View Post
    Even though we have freedom of religion in this country....
    They can practice their religion, they just canít wear burquas. I find it amazing that everyone thinks that the First Amendment gives anyone carte blanche permission to do anything they like in the name of religion. It doesnít. Rastafarians canít run around smoking pot in public; Yaqui Indians canít run around tripping on peyote buttons. In fact, school children in some schools canít even wear crosses in school.
    Maybe to you. But perhaps it has a different meaning within the culture and faith. I'm not well versed in Islamic culture so don't quote me on it, but I think it is just a reminder of outward religious expression.
    Since you obviously have no experience with Muslim women, youíre clueless. Thatís understandable. Look what happened with the Shah of Iran westernized Iran prior to 1979. Iranian women didnít wear burquas, could attend school and were treated more like equals. Since the 1979 revolution, repression of women has been re-established. Do you think the women chose to go back to wearing burquas on their own?
    That's a tad harsh. What if they are naturalized born citizens here? Force them to leave? People have a freedom to express their religion whether you agree with it or not.
    See above.
    How is it forcing law upon us? I'm not forced to wear one neither is any female in my family. Point being is it is a choice.
    Look at the goal of Muslims that immigrate into any area in high numbers. They attempt to change the community into a Muslim state. France is a great example of that metamorphosis. Near me in Dearborn, they blast their call to prayers over loud speakers throughout the city. XXX?!!
    West? Do you mean ignorant people on Middle Eastern cultures? And how is it barbaric? I don't see women being whipped in the streets of Paris so I think your view is rather narrow on a simple veil or a piece of cloth representing religious expression.
    Like I stated above, you have no experience with Muslim women, so you have no knowledge of the repression.
    Like I stated earlier, use time and resources to actually go after those that are extremists, not those simply practicing their faith...
    Radical Islam should not be tolerated in the West. We have no responsibility to protect those hellbent on destroying our way of life from within.

  11. #11
    MarieAntoinette Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Shooterandproud View Post
    Where are your thoughts on this issue? Personally, I think they should, but I'd be interested to see where people stand on this.

    When should society stop tolerating religious extremism?
    Yes, I say kudos to Sarcozy for advocating the ban. He is calling the bluff. There are a lot of security issues and the women in question cannot live their lives freely in France, or reasonably assimilate.

    They cannot participate in any of the activities that free people participate in; for example independent banking for women, going into government buildings or organizations that also require security checks, airports, and many occupations. Some of the women are also physically abused and the burkhas hide the evidence.

    No one is stopping anyone from being a Muslim. People can still wear clothing that symbolizes their religious faith, or cover themselves up. But the burkha is eerie when you are there in person. Cultural acceptance only goes so far.

    If a group of 12th century priests were walking down the street whipping themselves, I wouldn't want that either. Though people are free to do that to themselves in their homes.

  12. #12
    MarieAntoinette Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by jazyjason View Post
    Even though we have freedom of religion in this country....
    Mormons can not legally practice polygamy. For the most part, they adapted just fine.

  13. #13
    JPSartre12 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MarieAntoinette View Post
    Mormons can not legally practice polygamy. For the most part, they adapted just fine.
    Welcome back. I see that you got someone to hold the rock while you crawled out.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooterandproud View Post
    Where are your thoughts on this issue? Personally, I think they should, but I'd be interested to see where people stand on this.
    They have no right to decide what people wear. (Donít bring up wearing nothing)
    Quote Originally Posted by Shooterandproud View Post
    When should society stop tolerating religious extremism?
    Never

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPSartre12 View Post
    They can practice their religion, they just canít wear burquas. I find it amazing that everyone thinks that the First Amendment gives anyone carte blanche permission to do anything they like in the name of religion. It doesnít. Rastafarians canít run around smoking pot in public; Yaqui Indians canít run around tripping on peyote buttons. In fact, school children in some schools canít even wear crosses in school.
    How does smoking pot and wearing a piece of cloth compare to each other?

    Quote Originally Posted by JPSartre12 View Post
    Since you obviously have no experience with Muslim women, youíre clueless. Thatís understandable. Look what happened with the Shah of Iran westernized Iran prior to 1979. Iranian women didnít wear burquas, could attend school and were treated more like equals. Since the 1979 revolution, repression of women has been re-established. Do you think the women chose to go back to wearing burquas on their own?
    I wouldn't know however I see many Muslim women here in California wear it as a matter of choice or religious preference. Like I stated earlier if it is a means of repression that's one thing if it is free religious expression that is another.


    Quote Originally Posted by JPSartre12 View Post
    See above.
    I did.


    Quote Originally Posted by JPSartre12 View Post
    Look at the goal of Muslims that immigrate into any area in high numbers. They attempt to change the community into a Muslim state. France is a great example of that metamorphosis. Near me in Dearborn, they blast their call to prayers over loud speakers throughout the city. XXX?!!
    And...... So what? Goal? I feel that they are westernizing hopefully... I think your bridging the gap between radical Islam and those who practice their faith all over a cloth. There is a fine line but don't be like one particular forum member who calls for the murder of all women and children related to a radical.....

    Quote Originally Posted by JPSartre12 View Post
    Like I stated above, you have no experience with Muslim women, so you have no knowledge of the repression.
    But I know what is the difference between oppression and simple expression of faith JP. You are crossing the gap between once again religious expression and radical Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by JPSartre12 View Post
    Radical Islam should not be tolerated in the West. We have no responsibility to protect those hellbent on destroying our way of life from within.
    And who said these were radicals? Like I stated earlier JP devote the resources, time and manpower to hunting those suspected of such. Lets not waste time on debating on wearing a piece of cloth of not.


    If a women is being oppressed she should go to the proper authorities.

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