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Thread: A Challenge to Feminists

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by COBHC View Post
    Intentionally twisting what your opponent says to make it sound like they're making a point that they're not trying to make.
    How do you think I'm twisting your words? Certainly I can be mistaken about your point, but all you have to do is correct it.

    Quote Originally Posted by COBHC View Post
    It was always "Metal bands aren't misogynist in general." The majority of bands in Black Metal, Power Metal, and Folk Metal for example, don't put much of an emphasis on violent lyrics. In those genres, if violence is mentioned, it's normally not elaborated on too much and is often abstract. Alot of Blackened Death Metal bands and Death Metal bands don't have violent lyrics. Melodic Death Metal bands normally mention much graphic violence. Alot of Grindcore and Deathgrind sing about political issues, or evil. The part of Metal that has more of a tendency to make violent lyrics would be some Brutal Death Metal and Goregrind. That's only a small part of Metal.
    lol, then the discussion is only about a small portion of metal bands. Your original post made it clear you were only talking about bands that depicted violence:

    If you search the internet you will find songs by these bands that depict violence against women, along with times where their lyrics got them into legal trouble [...] I welcome anyone interested to try to prove that bands such as these are misogynist

    My replies have solely been along these lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by COBHC View Post
    You're claiming victory already? I suppose you could also conclude they're misandrist, using the same logic. Once again, they're so misogynist that they have wives and families. I guess by looking at most Black Metal bands, you could also conclude that Metal in general is Satanist.
    Now who's setting up a strawman? I've been talking about bands that depict rape and violence against women. That's the only group I've been talking about. I'm not sure why you keep bringing up wives and families. Those with negative views about women are perfectly capable of having wives and families.

    Quote Originally Posted by COBHC View Post
    It's not evidence of misogyny at all, unless we assume that musicians don't have a life off-stage.
    What do their lives off-stage have to do with anything? The fact that they are using rape and violence against women for entertainment is evidence that they have misogynist views.

    Quote Originally Posted by COBHC View Post
    If the band members are misogynist, then they would have to have negative opinions towards women.
    Yes, that is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by COBHC View Post
    So Jay Leno doesn't take the oil leak seriously then, in his personal life? Because for a band member to really be misogynist, they would have to have some sort of anti-woman attitude they express on stage. They're so misogynist that they have wives and families. XD
    They do have an anti-woman attitude. The fact that they are using rape and violence against women in their lyrics, on stage, in order to insult feminists is anti-woman.

    Jay Leno certainly trivializes the disaster on his show. However, there is nothing inherently negative about trivializing disasters so there's little to reflect on the man himself. Trivializing rape and violence against women, on the other hand, shows an inherent negative view of women.

    Quote Originally Posted by COBHC View Post
    Now you're putting words in my mouth. Just look at Nile, Suffocation, Brutal Truth, Rotten Sound, Agoraphobic Nosebleed, Goatwhore, a good number of songs by Deicide, etc. They normally (with a few exceptions) don't mention violence against women or violence in general. Yet they're serious bands.
    Then what did you mean by the comment: If the band is meant to be taken more seriously than a joke? I see no other meaning than the one I drew.

    Quote Originally Posted by COBHC View Post
    BTW, does that include women who listen to Metal? XD
    Since apparently the audience is predominately male, I doubt the numbers are statistically significant enough to warrant consideration.

    Quote Originally Posted by COBHC View Post
    So violent rap lyrics help to prove that Metal is misogynist?
    Since violent lyrics are not confined to rap, I could not say.
    My opinions may have changed but not the fact that I am right

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by COBHC View Post
    I'd say "get drunk all the time and be a slut" is a bad message to be sending to fourteen year old girls.
    Why is that?
    My opinions may have changed but not the fact that I am right

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
    lol, then the discussion is only about a small portion of metal bands. Your original post made it clear you were only talking about bands that depicted violence:

    If you search the internet you will find songs by these bands that depict violence against women, along with times where their lyrics got them into legal trouble [...] I welcome anyone interested to try to prove that bands such as these are misogynist

    My replies have solely been along these lines.
    See below.

    Now who's setting up a strawman? I've been talking about bands that depict rape and violence against women. That's the only group I've been talking about. I'm not sure why you keep bringing up wives and families. Those with negative views about women are perfectly capable of having wives and families.
    See below.

    What do their lives off-stage have to do with anything? The fact that they are using rape and violence against women for entertainment is evidence that they have misogynist views.
    Once again, no it isn't. That's the exact same point you tried to make that I responded to. You can't prove a point by continually repeating it or yelling it louder than me.

    Tom Araya, Slayer: Has written tons of songs with anti-Christian themes. Araya himself is a Roman Catholic.
    Chuck Schuldiner, ex-Death: Was said to be friendly and mild-mannered.
    "Jeanette, Death Rotten Decay" - Female vocalist for "Death Rotten Decay", often sung lyrics depicting sex and violence. Misogynist!
    "Mikoko", Flagitious Idiosyncrasy in the Dilapidation. - See above.
    Johann Hegg, Amon Amarth - Writes lyrics centering around Odinism, Vikings, and Norse Mythology. Hegg himself is an atheist.

    Lyrics don't say anything about musicians. Now I understand why you misunderstand metal. Because you see it at face value. I've been listening to it for almost three years, you get a glimpse of it at face value and in five seconds you think you understand more about what Metal "promotes" than I do.

    Yes, that is true.
    See above.

    They do have an anti-woman attitude. The fact that they are using rape and violence against women in their lyrics, on stage, in order to insult feminists is anti-woman.
    Right, they're also Satanist, Odinist, and Anti-christian, by your logic. I'm getting tired of explaining the same points over and over to you. You're seeing things at face value and failing to understand the difference of a person between their on stage life and their off stage life. You can't prove a point by repeating it or yelling it louder than me.

    Jay Leno certainly trivializes the disaster on his show. However, there is nothing inherently negative about trivializing disasters so there's little to reflect on the man himself. Trivializing rape and violence against women, on the other hand, shows an inherent negative view of women.
    That's retarded! If someone says something that's "wrong" it says something about them, but if they say something that isn't "wrong" it doesn't? Using your exact same logic, Jay Leno in his personal life does not take the Oil Spill seriously and has little concern for the environment. Whether or not you think that's "wrong" is irrelevant.

    Then what did you mean by the comment: If the band is meant to be taken more seriously than a joke? I see no other meaning than the one I drew.
    I was refering to joke bands like Decomposing Serenity and AxCx. They're just trying to be as offensive and musically annoying (to someone who listens to mainstream music) as possible, and if you take them seriously, then I'm wasting effort trying to reason with you.

    Since apparently the audience is predominately male, I doubt the numbers are statistically significant enough to warrant consideration.
    Great answer. "Well, hardly any women listen to metal, so I don't think I need to answer that question."

    Since violent lyrics are not confined to rap, I could not say.
    Rap has nothing to do with Metal. Rap lyrics don't prove that metal is violent any more than crime rates in India help prove that the UK is violent place. Simple as that.

    I've been making the assertion that some Metal has misogynist content. I never said any band promotes misogyny or is made of misogynist member, because as far as I know, none of them do. You keep seeing things at face value. You're not understanding the difference between on-stage and off-stage.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
    Why is that?
    I rest my case if you think that lazy, unemployed drunkards are beneficial to society.
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." ~ Gerald Ford

    "What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving." ~ Adrian Rogers

    Support gun control: hit your target when shooting!

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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by COBHC View Post
    Once again, no it isn't. That's the exact same point you tried to make that I responded to. You can't prove a point by continually repeating it or yelling it louder than me.

    Lyrics don't say anything about musicians.
    It seems instead that you are not understanding the point. While misogynist lyrics are evidence, though not proof, of anti-woman views, that is not my pont.

    I am not saying they believe their own lyrics.
    I am not saying that they are misogynist because their lyrics are misogynist.
    Therefore I am not saying that if a band sings about [blank] then they must believe that same [blank]

    I am saying that the fact that they are trivializing a serious and emotional issue to women (rape and violence toward women) for a self-serving purpose that it shows a certain amount of callousnesses toward woman, which is an expression of a misogynist viewpoint. The method they are using are their song lyrics.

    Quote Originally Posted by COBHC View Post
    Now I understand why you misunderstand metal. Because you see it at face value. I've been listening to it for almost three years, you get a glimpse of it at face value and in five seconds you think you understand more about what Metal "promotes" than I do.
    I am basing everything upon what I get from you. I am not taking anything at face value because I don't know the bands and I don't listen to the music.

    Quote Originally Posted by COBHC View Post
    That's retarded! If someone says something that's "wrong" it says something about them, but if they say something that isn't "wrong" it doesn't? Using your exact same logic, Jay Leno in his personal life does not take the Oil Spill seriously and has little concern for the environment. Whether or not you think that's "wrong" is irrelevant.
    I am not judging having a negative view of women as either "right" or "wrong".

    You have the logic wrong. I have not said: "trivializing rape and violence against women means that the band members don't take it seriously in their personal life". Instead, I have said: "trivializing rape and violence against women means that the band members display callousness toward women, which is a misogynist attitude".

    You could construe Jay Leno joking about the disaster as showing callousness toward the people that disaster affect, but it would likely be a reach since I doubt that is what the joke was about.

    Quote Originally Posted by COBHC View Post
    I was refering to joke bands like Decomposing Serenity and AxCx. They're just trying to be as offensive and musically annoying (to someone who listens to mainstream music) as possible, and if you take them seriously, then I'm wasting effort trying to reason with you.
    Hm, since you've said "a lot" of bands are trying to offend feminists, this would seem to imply that "a lot" of bands are jokes.

    Quote Originally Posted by COBHC View Post
    Great answer. "Well, hardly any women listen to metal, so I don't think I need to answer that question."
    My point about the listeners of the music depended upon your point that in order to be taken seriously bands had to compose lyrics about rape and violence against women. Since you've disputed the point, that argument no longer applies.

    Quote Originally Posted by COBHC View Post
    Rap has nothing to do with Metal. Rap lyrics don't prove that metal is violent any more than crime rates in India help prove that the UK is violent place. Simple as that.
    I have not made a connection between rap and metal. In fact, I haven't mentioned rap at all. I have asserted that there are songs that glorify violence, drugs and sex. The genre those songs are in are irrelevent.
    Last edited by Sigma; 06-11-2010 at 11:59 PM.
    My opinions may have changed but not the fact that I am right

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by COBHC View Post
    I rest my case if you think that lazy, unemployed drunkards are beneficial to society.
    I don't believe I said that.
    My opinions may have changed but not the fact that I am right

  7. #37
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    I believe the challenge of the OP was to prove that bands promot misogyny. Of course some bands express misogyny on stage. I think Ethmi meant "Do bands promote Misogyny?" I've wasted effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
    I don't believe I said that.
    Good.
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." ~ Gerald Ford

    "What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving." ~ Adrian Rogers

    Support gun control: hit your target when shooting!

    I regret my user name.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethmi View Post
    I've started other threads over this issue but I've never managed to get a discussion. I challenge anyone interested to discuss wether or not hardcore metal bands are misogynist. I'm talking about hardcore bands with violent themed lyrics that sometimes depict rape and mutilation, bands such as Cannibal Corpse, Slayer, one or two songs by Nile, etc.

    If you search the internet you will find songs by these bands that depict violence against women, along with times where their lyrics got them into legal trouble. For example, I remember an incident when Slayer was sued by a family who lost their daughter to a group of teenage boys, supposedly influenced by Slayer's lyrics. Also, until 2006 Cannibal Corpse could not play anything from their first three albums due to violent lyrics. In fact, the commercial sale of Butchered at Birth is completely banned in Australia to this day.

    Once again, I welcome anyone interested to try to prove that bands such as these are misogynist.
    As a lyricist, poet, creative writer, and song satirist who specializes in political humor,
    I have found it depends on the SPIRIT of what someone says or does, and HOW they say it, the full context and personality.

    I have written spoofs that people took as REALLY anti-male, manhating rants.
    Here is one example: www houstonprogressive.org / MSFU.html
    Once they understood it was a spoof, it took on a different meaning.

    I wrote another satire making fun of men's fear and phobias about women activists plotting to get them.
    Because someone thought a MAN wrote it, they interpreted to be some "guy bashing feminists."
    Once they got that I was spoofing the fear and political paranoia, they thought it was hilarious!

    So it depends on the people and the piece.
    Some things can use sexist language and yet make a higher statement beyond that scope.

    Some things may not have anything directly sexist you can point out,
    but the SPIRIT of the person performing it is about dominating or degrading/projecting onto another person, including a woman.

    If it's really degrading and projecting rage in an unhealthy way,
    it will not just be against "women" but will be brutalizing another person in general.

    As for the worst sexist misogynist comment I can remember,
    Ann Coulter made a horrible statement about a Muslim woman's genitalia.

    So to me, she broke through the glass ceiling in showing that
    women could make as sexist a comment as a man could.
    It depends on the spirit of it.

  9. #39
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    So it depends on the people and the piece.

  10. #40
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    Hey

    LOL

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