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Thread: Capitalism and Child Exploitation

  1. #1
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    Capitalism and Child Exploitation

    Daily Kos: Child Labour: please watch what you buy..

    Those wonderful, heart-filled capitalists!

    So wunnerful to the children of the world!

    Wunnerful! Wunnerful!
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    What do you think will happen to children in poor countries that are prevented from legally working?

    The argument that child labour is necessary in some economies is a strawman, it was used when the unions here forced the changes in working conditions through.
    Unions fought to keep children out of work for the same reason they fought to keep blacks and women out of work - they want a monopoly on employment.
    He or she who supports a State organized in a military way – whether directly or indirectly – participates in sin. Each man takes part in the sin by contributing to the maintenance of the State by paying taxes.

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    In the UK child labour restrictions were introduced as a result of the more benevolent sort of industrialist, they actually pre-date any significant union power. If the owners are occasionally capable of altruism, why not credit the same to unions?
    “When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
    “It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
    "It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
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    I wouldn't like to credit an economy-wide change with benevolence. Were it a sacrifice avoid employing children, children-employers would have a competitive advantage. Yet they virtually died out in every developed market before any law was passed.
    He or she who supports a State organized in a military way – whether directly or indirectly – participates in sin. Each man takes part in the sin by contributing to the maintenance of the State by paying taxes.

    ~ Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Symbiote View Post
    I wouldn't like to credit an economy-wide change with benevolence. Were it a sacrifice avoid employing children, children-employers would have a competitive advantage. Yet they virtually died out in every developed market before any law was passed.
    Source? Children were regularly employed in the UK well into the 19th Century, and laws restricting child labour were passed as early as 1802.
    “When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
    “It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
    "It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
    "We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

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    Sorry Jo, I thought you meant that benevolent industrialists unilaterally decided against employing children.

    If they lobbied for laws in the UK, and this resulted in the reduction, that would make sense. (Though I'd suspect more technologically advanced firms that no longer themselves required child labor pushed for it to harm their competitors more than anything else, just as Wal-Mart lobbies for higher minimum wage laws in order to drive mon-and-pop stores out of business).

    Incidentally I don't believe there is a minimum working age law in New Zealand, though it could be argued that minimum wage laws effectively prevent younger children from being competitive in the labour market.

    EH.Net Encyclopedia: Child Labor in the United States is a good source for the US.
    He or she who supports a State organized in a military way – whether directly or indirectly – participates in sin. Each man takes part in the sin by contributing to the maintenance of the State by paying taxes.

    ~ Gandhi

  7. #7
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    The local mill owner where I live (John Fielden) was largely responsible for the passage of the 10 hours act in the UK, which placed restrictions on working hours for all workers, including children. He was also a philanthropist and donated land and buildings to the town. This sort of paternalism was not the norm but was far from uncommon in the 19th century. Cadbury, Rowntree, Titus Salt were more famous examples of a similar attitude, to the extent that they provided better accommodation for their workers, paid for education and recreational activities. I think you're being overly cynical to think they were only doing it for competitive advantage.
    “When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
    “It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
    "It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
    "We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

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    We all know the world is an ugly place. However, a comparason of Kids' living conditions in Capitalist societies (US, UK, South Korea) and Non-Capitalist societies (China, North Korea, whatever) will quickly show where it is much nicer to be a kid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CUNxTime View Post
    We all know the world is an ugly place. However, a comparason of Kids' living conditions in Capitalist societies (US, UK, South Korea) and Non-Capitalist societies (China, North Korea, whatever) will quickly show where it is much nicer to be a kid.
    How about a more reasonable comparison? Cuba with Bangladesh (or Ghana, Ivory Coast, a number of other places).
    “When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
    “It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
    "It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
    "We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jo Bennett View Post
    How about a more reasonable comparison? Cuba with Bangladesh (or Ghana, Ivory Coast, a number of other places).
    Ok...Cuba then....

    Has anyone ever heard of a family with kids risking their lives to paddle a refrigerator to Cuba?

    Bangladesh....sounds like Democracy and Capitalism are improving their lot...

    The borders of present-day Bangladesh were established with the partition of Bengal and India in 1947, when the region became the eastern wing of the newly-formed Pakistan. However, it was separated from the western wing by 1,600 kilometers (1,000 mi) across India. Political and linguistic discrimination as well as economic neglect led to popular agitations against West Pakistan, which led to the war for independence in 1971 and the establishment of Bangladesh. After independence the new state endured famines, natural disasters and widespread poverty, as well as political turmoil and military coups. The restoration of democracy in 1991 has been followed by relative stability and economic progress.

    Bangladesh is the seventh most populous country in the world and is among the most densely populated countries in the world with a high poverty rate. However, per-capita (inflation-adjusted) GDP has more than doubled since 1975, and the poverty rate has fallen by 20% since the early 1990s. The country is listed among the "Next Eleven" economies. Dhaka and other urban centers have been the driving force behind this growth.[4]
    Bangladesh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Ghana.... well compare it too most of its neighbors...2x the per/cap GDP. Compare it to North Korea whatever...consistantly Capitalist Democracies will rock the commies.
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  11. #11
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    How about the USA?

    " ...... In most industrialised countries, children routinely start earning money before
    reaching the minimum age for full-time employment (variously set at 14,
    15 or 16) and some of these workers are engaged in hazardous or illegal
    work.
    Estimates of the number of young people working on farms in the US
    vary from 300,000 to 800,000.17 Many are from minority groups,
    particularly Spanish-speaking immigrant families (many of whose
    children were born in the US).
    Under US laws, the legal age for most
    farm work is only 12 if a parent accompanies the working child.
    However, like so much other legislation on employing children, this
    contains loopholes. It requires children to be 14 years old to work in
    cherry orchards, but only 13 to work in cucumber, berry and spinach
    fields. Children who are 14 can work unlimited hours in the fields
    before or after school, but the same law limits the number of hours
    that 14-year-olds can work in other jobs to just three a day during termtime.
    The laws vary from state to state and crop to crop, even though
    farm work exposes young workers to pesticides and to greater risks
    than other types of work. ............. "

    http://www.unicef.org.uk/publication...ECHILD2_A4.pdf
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by CUNxTime View Post
    Ok...Cuba then....

    Has anyone ever heard of a family with kids risking their lives to paddle a refrigerator to Cuba?

    Bangladesh....sounds like Democracy and Capitalism are improving their lot...


    Bangladesh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Ghana.... well compare it too most of its neighbors...2x the per/cap GDP. Compare it to North Korea whatever...consistantly Capitalist Democracies will rock the commies.
    We were talking about child labour. Start another thread if you want to go round and round on comparing development in different countries. As it happens, if you read the article aobut Bangladesh you will note that it is far from democratic - there hasn't been an election since 2001.
    “When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
    “It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
    "It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
    "We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penfold View Post
    How about the USA?

    " ...... In most industrialised countries, children routinely start earning money before
    reaching the minimum age for full-time employment (variously set at 14,
    15 or 16) and some of these workers are engaged in hazardous or illegal
    work.
    Estimates of the number of young people working on farms in the US
    vary from 300,000 to 800,000.17 Many are from minority groups,
    particularly Spanish-speaking immigrant families (many of whose
    children were born in the US).
    Under US laws, the legal age for most
    farm work is only 12 if a parent accompanies the working child.
    However, like so much other legislation on employing children, this
    contains loopholes. It requires children to be 14 years old to work in
    cherry orchards, but only 13 to work in cucumber, berry and spinach
    fields. Children who are 14 can work unlimited hours in the fields
    before or after school, but the same law limits the number of hours
    that 14-year-olds can work in other jobs to just three a day during termtime.
    The laws vary from state to state and crop to crop, even though
    farm work exposes young workers to pesticides and to greater risks
    than other types of work. ............. "

    http://www.unicef.org.uk/publication...ECHILD2_A4.pdf
    I started working when I was 13 and am so glad I did. That said, forcing kids to work in mines and in dangerous places (esp. against their will) is, of course, awful. My only point was that a kid is better off in a Capitalist society 999 out of 1000.
    -Computer $1500.00
    -Monthly internet connection $35.00
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    -Convincing a Socialist that incentive is the mother of motivation,

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jo Bennett View Post
    We were talking about child labour. Start another thread if you want to go round and round on comparing development in different countries. As it happens, if you read the article aobut Bangladesh you will note that it is far from democratic - there hasn't been an election since 2001.
    Again... the world is an ugly place and bad stuff happens everywhere. However, the title of the thread is Capitalism and Child Exploitation and my point is that capitalist societies are much better off (kids included) than non-capitalist countries and capitalism coupled with democracy is the ultimate protection for all people (kids included).
    -Computer $1500.00
    -Monthly internet connection $35.00
    -Monthly electricity bill $245.00
    -Convincing a Socialist that incentive is the mother of motivation,

    Priceless!

  15. #15
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    I disagree, socialism coupled with democracy looks after kids much better. The most socialist countries in the developed world are also the best places for kids to grow up.
    “When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
    “It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
    "It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
    "We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

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