Poll: How old were you when you first explored your own views about abortion?

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Thread: What does it take to change your mind about abortion?

  1. #1
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    What does it take to change your mind about abortion?

    I could write a lengthier introduction to this thread but I think the title pretty much says it all, so I won't elaborate much further.

    I do want to add the circumstances of my own "evolution" on the issue and I'll also add what I think it would take to change my mind again on the matter.

    My first introduction to the word "abortion" came about 1972-1973. It had nothing to do with "babies" or women or anything like that. I was only about 11 years old and our pet calico cat (Patches) got her entire hind quarters mangled somehow. We think it was a car engine.

    At any rate, we rushed her to the vet and he tried to save her hind legs and life. She later got so infected the vet had to put her down.

    But during the ordeal, I remember my step-mom telling my dad that the vet "had to take the kittens."

    "What kittens?" I asked. "Where are they?"

    "They are dead", she said,... "the Dr. had to abort them,... they were only about the size of a walnut."

    I missed our cat and felt bad that we didn"t even get to see her kittens,...

    You might think that this is the event that made up my mind about abortion, but it's not. I was eleven and didn't know (didn't care) about girls, how babies are made or any of that. This did however come back to me later, and that's why I mention it now.

    Fast forward about 6 years and I started working and driving myself to school. I started dating. And I now had classes in health and biology. None of which (at that point) heightened my awareness about abortion. Neither did it raise any concerns.

    Then one day while talking about a girl I liked to my step-mom,... My step-mom said; "you do know that if you get some girl pregnant, she'll have to get an abortion."

    "You're too young," she said. "You can't even take care of yourself."

    Never mind my rebellious attitude toward my insistent step-mom,.. (what does she know? or care?) I had a job and my own money and I wasn't trying to bed the girl anyway. I was just talking about a date.

    (Good thing this is the short version, huh?)


    Anyway,.. I'll try to wrap this up.

    Not long after I started dating and getting into more and more serious relationships,... it was sex, not abortion that became the topic of conversation.

    It was only after having several of these dating relationships that I finally had to address the "what if I get pregnant?" question?

    I thought that it would impress the girl I was with if I stepped up and said,.. "if you get pregnant, I guess I'll be a daddy." Well that was what she wanted to hear,... But it didn't get me into her pants either.

    So that didn't work...

    A couple years later, while dating a different girl,.. and having had the same conversations a few more times, (and after finally losing my virginity),... we were driving down the road and came upon a billboard size picture of an aborted baby. The only words on the sign said "choose life."

    At first glance, the picture looked like a mix between peanut butter and jelly with some fish bones sticking out of it.

    This started the first REAL, (I would say) Mature discussion that I ever had about the subject.

    Oddly enough, we both had the same reaction,... we both agreed that we probably wouldn't want an abortion,... but why would anyone put something that gross and disgusting up in a public place?

    At that point, I believed that she and I felt the same about abortion.

    A few weeks later, we were on yet another date,.. and we drove near a crowd of people walking a picket line. They were carrying signs and shouting at people. There were horns honking. Bibles waving in the air,... and (remembering how gross the billboard was) I couldn't resist yelling at the "bunch of ######." I remember yelling "STFU and mind your own business!"

    I had arrived at one of the most common mindsets regarding abortion; "I would never want to have an abortion (have my child aborted),... but who am I to tell anyone else what they can or can't do with their body?"

    My girlfriend agreed!

    Then, about three months later,... She came to me.

    Crying.

    She said "I'm late."

    "Late for what?" I asked.

    She said, she was pregnant and she wanted $250.00

    She didn't say it was for an abortion and she didn't have to.

    """NOT MY CHILD!"""

    I said. "I'll chain you to the bed before I let you kill our child."

    "What's the matter with you? I said; "I love you." "We talked about this."

    She just walked away.

    A week later, she told me,... she promised me that it was all just a false alarm.

    But now, my personal views were more set than ever.

    I still believed the same "I don't want mine aborted, but who am I to tell another,..."

    Only now, it was in the front of my mind and not buried in the Grey area.

    I'm going to split this into two posts.
    Last edited by Chuz Life; 05-01-2009 at 02:37 PM.
    "How can a government that has the authority to grant or to deny "personhood" to a prebirth child not also have the authority to define "marriage" as it sees fit to address the general welfare of the nation?" - Chuz Life

    Something smells!

  2. #2
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    2nd half

    Ok,.... to finish the story.

    I'm in my early 20's, abortion as it plays into relationships is no longer a stranger to me and I'm dating again.

    Now, more than ever before,.. I'm determined to make sure that whoever I date agrees with me on abortion so I don't ever have to go through that again. Don't get me wrong, it didn't always come up in first 2nd or 3rd dates. (It wasn't that many relationships either.) But always, when I thought the time was right, we would discuss abortion. I even shared with some of my dates, the story of the one who wanted the money for the abortion.

    Some young women that I dated liked my wanting to make sure we agreed,... that abortion was not something I wanted for my kid,... that I wanted to be a dad, etc. And frankly some were turned off by it. They couldn't even continue the conversation.

    Two girls I dated had had an abortion. One of them couldn't see me anymore because she said she felt ashamed.

    I really liked her and didn't really care that she had-had an abortion. It's wasn't my child and it was before she knew me,...

    Fast forward a few more years and one day, down the street from my house,... I passed another group of people waiving signs and pictures of aborted babies and such,... This time they were close to MY house!

    I shook my head and muttered to myself,.. "what a bunch of ######." "Look at em." "Nothing better to do with their time."

    I told an uncle about the protest as he lived close by too. He was the first guy that I ever mentioned abortion to.

    It was fall 1989.

    My uncle said, "oddly enough, there's a guy on the radio, you should listen to." "He does this thing called caller abortions." "His name is Rush Limbaugh." "You've got to hear it."

    So, the next week or so, I tried and finally found the show. I listened long enough to know I couldn't stand the S.O.B. and I wanted to reach through my radio and rip his condescending head off. He never played a caller abortion while I had the radio on. I would hear people call him and complain. I would hear him mention it,... etc.

    And then explained WHY he was doing it.

    Rush said something like "I intentionally play those sounds to get the very reactions you give me."

    "Imagine what it means that you get more bent out of shape over a stupid imitation of an abortion than you do a REAL one taking place right down the street from your house."

    Having the protesters near my home,... Rush now had my un-divided attention.

    He went on to say that he "believes that every human being's life begins at conception and that it's not possible to begin it at any other point in time or by any other means." He also challenged his audience to prove it can begin any other way!

    Ah-HA! (I thought)--- "I got him!"

    I started reading about abortion. I didn't have a computer yet,... Neither did anyone I knew. I started talking to more and more people, telling them of this challenge. We talked about the test-tube baby. We talked about our own personal views. We talked about the religious aspects,... But I kept coming back to conception.

    The first chance I got,... I bought a computer. My friends at work told me of a "Bulletin board" called "FIDO-NET" where you could "log on" and meet people and debate things like politics, abortion if that's what you're interested in,... etc.

    It took a while,.. but I finally got online to the BBS.

    We used a off line mail editor called the "Blue wave" mail reader. And it took FOREVER to connect, download, upload and post messages.

    I was on a mission now,.. I had dropped over $2,500.00 for a 386 PC. A 2400 baud modem and a color monitor. Running Dos 3.0 and a relatively new program called "CompuServe."

    During all the distraction and learning curve of learning computers, I gave up on the abortion thing. I even gave up on Rush.

    But, just for grins... Hidden behind my anonymity I posted a new thread titled "ABORTION IS MURDER I CAN PROVE IT!"

    And I waited for a response.

    When the responses came, I just posted what Rush said,... which was all it took for me to realize that yes,.. biologically speaking a new life begins at conception.

    I didn't know about DNA,.. genetics was a brand new discovery and if it was ever discussed, I didn't notice it.

    Long story short,.. I had this faint conviction that Rush was right,... but I didn't have a clue on how to argue the point. The responses I got were so well worded, the posters vocabulary so much greater than my own,.. their ability to make me look and feel stupid even when I knew I was right infuriated me.

    I upgraded to AOL (I bet that's the first time that line has been used in nearly 10 years)

    I discovered other "chat rooms" and subsequently got banned from many of them just for trying to have a discussion about abortion.

    I found out that I was the exception to the rule in that I could be convinced by such a simple observation as Rush's,... but others were completely un-affected by it.

    STILL,.. My position remained that I was against abortion for myself,... and other than trying to convince others that life begins at conception,... I wasn't into the legality thing at all. I had skimmed Roe v. Wade, Griswold v. Connecticut,.. and other landmark cases,... But the legal #### did nothing for me.

    During all this, I was dating again. And in the midst of an election year, an on again off again relationship,... I got sent out of state for more school. My date and I stopped for lunch before I left and we agreed to take a break again from our relationship while I was away,... She commented on how she had this odd sticky sweaty clamminess to her hands. I remember taking them into mine and saying to her,.. "you're pregnant,.. you better go get checked."

    I got the call while I was out of state that I was right. She was pregnant. We were both opposed to abortion and we were about to go our separate ways.

    The pregnancy was a tedious, draining nightmare. There were some good times too,... don't get me wrong. But my (by then) wife contracted "Toxemia." She was given magnesium and other drugs to try to keep her body from rejecting the babies. We had to grow up fast and learn a lot about babies and such even faster.

    I attended Lamaze classes,.. and it was only then that I looked closely at the biological development of prebirth children. MY child was in there. MY child's life was in danger because my wife's body was rejecting it. Our daughter finally had to be induced 6.5 weeks preemie. She was charcoal black from the magnesium and stress and not breathing when she was born. There was no "Dad cut the cord" or anything like that,... she was rushed straight to the neo-natal-NICU. I helped the Dr.s get her to take her first breath. I held my hand over her eyes to shield them from the light and I was the first to see her open her (then) coal black eyes. She weighed only 4lbs 5 oz.

    Two years later, our marriage was over. long story short and many many details omitted,.. I came away with physical custody and I raised my daughter for nearly 10 years by myself.

    It was during my (then) wife's pregnancy, the Lamaze and the birth itself,... That the abortion issue brought me the furthest to the point that I am at today.

    To the point that I am driven as much by the ignorance and denials; denials about what I know; the denials held by others,.. than I am by the knowledge about abortion itself.

    Maybe it will be for another thread,... But there was a time when I actually co-responded for a short time with Norma McCorvey (aka Jane Roe in Roe v. Wade). Norma is a very nice lady. She is also a very vulnerable, skeptical and somewhat confused lady. She is passionately religious now about Her views regarding abortion and it was MY insistence that religion have nothing to do with the debate that drove the two of us apart.

    I will forever be grateful to Norma for corresponding with me and for giving me a chance to work with her efforts to (now) overturn the ruling that she now regrets being part of.

    I should add my answer to the question; "What does it take to change my mind regarding abortion?"

    It would take the same thing Rush challenged me with 20 years ago. Someone would need to prove to me that a person's life does not begin at and by their conception,... but by some other means or at some point in time thereafter.

    Good luck.
    Last edited by Chuz Life; 05-01-2009 at 10:36 AM.
    "How can a government that has the authority to grant or to deny "personhood" to a prebirth child not also have the authority to define "marriage" as it sees fit to address the general welfare of the nation?" - Chuz Life

    Something smells!

  3. #3
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    Absolutely nothing could persuade me to change my mind.

    It is absolutely abhorrent to me that a woman would be denied ownership and autonomy over her own body. It is a gross violation of human rights and liberty.

    Here I stand, for liberty and human rights. I shall not be moved.
    Brother, you can believe in stones as long as you do not hurl them at me. Wafa Sultan

    “War is an American way to teach geography,” British soldier

    War is sweet to those who have not tasted it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach. – Pindar

  4. #4
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    That's great for women,...

    Quote Originally Posted by simone View Post
    Absolutely nothing could persuade me to change my mind.

    It is absolutely abhorrent to me that a woman would be denied ownership and autonomy over her own body. It is a gross violation of human rights and liberty.

    Here I stand, for liberty and human rights. I shall not be moved.
    That's great for women!

    What about the rights of their children?
    "How can a government that has the authority to grant or to deny "personhood" to a prebirth child not also have the authority to define "marriage" as it sees fit to address the general welfare of the nation?" - Chuz Life

    Something smells!

  5. #5
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    Your definition of "children" is questionable.
    Brother, you can believe in stones as long as you do not hurl them at me. Wafa Sultan

    “War is an American way to teach geography,” British soldier

    War is sweet to those who have not tasted it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach. – Pindar

  6. #6
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    That wasn't the question,...

    Quote Originally Posted by simone View Post
    Your definition of "children" is questionable.
    As is yours.

    I'm ready willing and able to defend mine.

    Are you?
    "How can a government that has the authority to grant or to deny "personhood" to a prebirth child not also have the authority to define "marriage" as it sees fit to address the general welfare of the nation?" - Chuz Life

    Something smells!

  7. #7
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    Haven't I given you many possible 'start points'? And provided evidence that conception is a relatively minor event?

    Other points for a 'beginning' (note I don't particularly believe all of these):
    1. When the mind develops to the extent that a foetus is concious of what happens to it. This is corroborated by the fact that a person is only considered medically 'dead' when their brain function has ceased - despite the fact that many of the cells in their body are still 'alive' and they may even be breathing and have a heartbeat, thanks to modern life support machines. The presence of 'a mind' is also the rationale by which many people are against cruelty to animals, etc - but think nothing of mowing their lawn or uprooting weeds.

    2. When the sperm and egg that will eventually fuse to become a zygote are created. This is corroborated by the fact that the sperm and egg are the 'alive' cells which will go on to create a new individual - the zygote is only a middle step.

    3. When the umbilical cord is cut. This is corroborated by the fact that up until this point, the foetus is a biological 'part' of the mother, with the same blood supply etc. The standard 'foetus as symbiote/parasite' argument.

    You know my arguments against conception...
    The truth may be out there, but lies are in your head.

  8. #8
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    Please stay on topic,....

    Quote Originally Posted by iangb View Post
    Haven't I given you many possible 'start points'? And provided evidence that conception is a relatively minor event?
    Please try to say on the topic of the thread, iangb.

    I have already told you that I would like to formally debate you on the details. So, whenever you feel ready, start the thread,.. issue the challenge,.. let's get a moderator and let's get it on.

    This thread is supposed to be about what YOUR threshold is. I've already given mine.
    Last edited by Chuz Life; 05-01-2009 at 02:32 PM.
    "How can a government that has the authority to grant or to deny "personhood" to a prebirth child not also have the authority to define "marriage" as it sees fit to address the general welfare of the nation?" - Chuz Life

    Something smells!

  9. #9
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    My grandmother raised 11 children in one room shack with an abusive husband who would not work. This was the 40s and 50s where divorce and recourse for women was virtually non-existant. She tried to get birth control and was thrown out of the doctor's office for daring to ask without her husband's consent. Once my grandfather died and she was past child-rearing years, she volunteered at a women's health clinic that provided all kinds of reproductive care, including abortions.

    My mother had a miserable pregnancy with my brother. He was her third, and came early. Afterwards, she decided she was done having babies. However, she could not get her tubes tied without my father's permission, something that was only obtained by her doctor telling my father that my mother could not have anymore successful pregnancies (a lie). This same man, who held the keys to her womb, abandonded his children ten years later.

    I would also like to point it wasn't until well past the time of both these stories that spousal rape started becoming illegal. It some places it still isn't.

    When I was 22 years old I was living in Spain. I was walking home one night when a man grabbed me by the neck and pulled me into an alley. I suspect the gory details aren't relevant.

    When I was 27 I married. My husband would not let me leave (except to work), read, or do much of anything. He was a mean drunk and a frequent one. He could also be violent. I was able to finally break free of him.

    The direct and implied lessons of these stories is clear. I stand with Simone on this one. I will not budge.
    “But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most? ” ~ Mark Twain

    "Those who are easily shocked... should be shocked more often" ~ Mae West

  10. #10
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    When an un-movable object meet an irresistable force??

    Quote Originally Posted by jitobear View Post
    The direct and implied lessons of these stories is clear. I stand with Simone on this one. I will not budge.
    Yet, in another thread you said that you feel abortion is a "horrible" thing.

    At any rate,.. thanks at least for your story and your declaration. I'm sorry for your tragedies. But I'm glad you shared them as a means to put your position in a proper perspective.

    For the record, I believe the Constitution supports women having the right to abort in cases of rape... (if they chose to do so.) And I also believe that the Constitution would allow that in those cases (rapes) where the woman aborts to defend herself against an un-invitd pregnancy,... the death penalty would be warranted for the rapist who attacked her.

    I for one, won't be wasting any more of either of our time,... trying to change your mind on the issue. I'll thank you to not worry about trying to change mine.
    "How can a government that has the authority to grant or to deny "personhood" to a prebirth child not also have the authority to define "marriage" as it sees fit to address the general welfare of the nation?" - Chuz Life

    Something smells!

  11. #11
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    Thanks for the announcement,...

    Quote Originally Posted by simone View Post
    Absolutely nothing could persuade me to change my mind.

    It is absolutely abhorrent to me that a woman would be denied ownership and autonomy over her own body. It is a gross violation of human rights and liberty.

    Here I stand, for liberty and human rights. I shall not be moved.
    Human rights?

    Is a human fetus (a human child in the fetal stage of their life) not a human life?

    Do I even need to bother with linking to a dictionary on this one anymore?

    Just one word; "Hypocrisy"
    "How can a government that has the authority to grant or to deny "personhood" to a prebirth child not also have the authority to define "marriage" as it sees fit to address the general welfare of the nation?" - Chuz Life

    Something smells!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    Yet, in another thread you said that you feel abortion is a "horrible" thing.
    Demanding complete autonomy to my body at ALL times and finding abortion horiible are not mutually exclusive. I do believe there are many (and more effective) ways to reduce abortion than criminalization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    I for one, won't be wasting any more of either of our time,... trying to change your mind on the issue. I'll thank you to not worry about trying to change mine.
    Gladly!
    “But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most? ” ~ Mark Twain

    "Those who are easily shocked... should be shocked more often" ~ Mae West

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jitobear View Post
    My grandmother raised 11 children in one room shack with an abusive husband who would not work. This was the 40s and 50s where divorce and recourse for women was virtually non-existant. She tried to get birth control and was thrown out of the doctor's office for daring to ask without her husband's consent. Once my grandfather died and she was past child-rearing years, she volunteered at a women's health clinic that provided all kinds of reproductive care, including abortions.

    My mother had a miserable pregnancy with my brother. He was her third, and came early. Afterwards, she decided she was done having babies. However, she could not get her tubes tied without my father's permission, something that was only obtained by her doctor telling my father that my mother could not have anymore successful pregnancies (a lie). This same man, who held the keys to her womb, abandonded his children ten years later.

    I would also like to point it wasn't until well past the time of both these stories that spousal rape started becoming illegal. It some places it still isn't.

    When I was 22 years old I was living in Spain. I was walking home one night when a man grabbed me by the neck and pulled me into an alley. I suspect the gory details aren't relevant.

    When I was 27 I married. My husband would not let me leave (except to work), read, or do much of anything. He was a mean drunk and a frequent one. He could also be violent. I was able to finally break free of him.

    The direct and implied lessons of these stories is clear. I stand with Simone on this one. I will not budge.

    women who have that kind of men trouble (excluding rape of course) is usually because they get hitched to a low class good for nothing unenlightened chauvinist male

    Now they marry them so they are partly to blame. So it seems the women in your family are very unlucky or very foolish when it comes to chosing men.

    a life is sacrosant to those religious, therefore to extinguish a life in the womb, is no different to extinguishing a life outside the womb

    This is the position of most people in my home country Chile. For the socialist government to get legislation approved to allow the 'morning after' pill they had to prove that it was an anticonceptive measure not an abortive one.

    A foetus is in the body of the mother but is not part of the mother, it is not a limb or an organ or a tumor.

  14. #14
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    Winston, unfortunately, American women have been encouraged to have very low standards in regard to men. American women are constantly told they are nothing, a nobody, without a man and that even a rotten, terrible man is better than to be without a man.
    Brother, you can believe in stones as long as you do not hurl them at me. Wafa Sultan

    “War is an American way to teach geography,” British soldier

    War is sweet to those who have not tasted it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach. – Pindar

  15. #15
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    Generally offensive,...

    Quote Originally Posted by simone View Post
    Winston, unfortunately, American women have been encouraged to have very low standards in regard to men. American women are constantly told they are nothing, a nobody, without a man and that even a rotten, terrible man is better than to be without a man.
    Surely such ad hominem type generalizations as this are against the forums rules?
    "How can a government that has the authority to grant or to deny "personhood" to a prebirth child not also have the authority to define "marriage" as it sees fit to address the general welfare of the nation?" - Chuz Life

    Something smells!

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