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Thread: Planning under way for Obama holiday

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by chester View Post
    Ethmi,

    What say we do as the Finns do, tax all income over $1M per annum at 100%? It hasn't seemed to hurt their economy.

    If that's a bit too progressive for you, how about we follow the Japanese law and mandate that no executive of any corporation may earn more than 100x what the lowest paid shop floor employee does.

    I don't see Honda, Toyota, or Nissan running to their government begging for bailouts.
    The Japanese do not have the UAW to contend with. The Japanese are bailing out their banks and some big businesses.

    I am personally against the US auto industry bailout unless the unions agree to massive cuts in worker pay, union dues and excessive pensions.

  2. #62
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    Thumbs down Capitalism - take from the needy and give to the greedy

    Quote Originally Posted by isly ilwott View Post
    The Japanese do not have the UAW to contend with. The Japanese are bailing out their banks and some big businesses.

    I am personally against the US auto industry bailout unless the unions agree to massive cuts in worker pay, union dues and excessive pensions.
    New hires at the Big 3 automakers make $17/hr. Just how low would you go - to the level of a Wal-Mart greeter, perhaps? Just maybe that way they will be unable to purchase the vehicles they make.

    No, you right wingers are not going to place either the blame or the solution for the mismanagement crisis in the auto industry on the backs of its workers.

    How about management agree to give up their pensions, their options, their lifetime medical care, their company vehicles, and their jobs?

    They created this mess; they ought to do the honorable thing and act as Japanese managers do - stand up, be a man, apologize for their stupidity, resign, and forfeit all their benefits.

  3. #63
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    Thumbs down Capitalism - take from the needy and give to the greedy

    A Modern Parable

    A Japanese company ( Toyota) and an American company (Ford Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

    On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

    The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

    Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 7 people steering and 2 people rowing.

    Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.

    They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.

    Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 2 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

    They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 2 people rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rowers. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses. The pension program was trimmed to 'equal the competition' and some of the resultant savings were channeled into morale-boosting programs and teamwork posters.

    The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

    Humiliated, the American management laid off one rower, halted development of a new canoe, sold all the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses.

    The next year, try as he might, the lone designated rower was unable to even finish the race (having no paddles,) so he was laid off for unacceptable performance, all canoe equipment was sold and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India.

    Sadly, the End.

    Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

    TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results:

    TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

    Ford folks are still scratching their heads, and collecting bonuses... and asking for a 'bail-out'...

    IF THIS WEREN'T SO TRUE IT MIGHT BE FUNNY

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by chester View Post
    Ethmi,

    What say we do as the Finns do, tax all income over $1M per annum at 100%? It hasn't seemed to hurt their economy.

    If that's a bit too progressive for you, how about we follow the Japanese law and mandate that no executive of any corporation may earn more than 100x what the lowest paid shop floor employee does.

    I don't see Honda, Toyota, or Nissan running to their government begging for bailouts.
    The Finland thing is not true and I doubt the Japan one is either. Finland does have a high tax rate and this is actually a problem they admit they have and it is believed to be responsible for not moving up faster in the world.

    Don't let the truth get in the way though.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by chester View Post
    New hires at the Big 3 automakers make $17/hr. Just how low would you go - to the level of a Wal-Mart greeter, perhaps? Just maybe that way they will be unable to purchase the vehicles they make.

    No, you right wingers are not going to place either the blame or the solution for the mismanagement crisis in the auto industry on the backs of its workers.

    How about management agree to give up their pensions, their options, their lifetime medical care, their company vehicles, and their jobs?

    They created this mess; they ought to do the honorable thing and act as Japanese managers do - stand up, be a man, apologize for their stupidity, resign, and forfeit all their benefits.
    I don't see a source for your claim. Maybe the starting wage for janitors at the plant is $17.00. That might be considered high in some areas.

    I don't blame the workers at all. I blame the unions that convinced the workers to pay union dues so the unions could build up strike funds to be able to force the companies to pay excess wages and benefits for low productivity. Of course the higher wages enabled the unions to raise their dues and line the pockets of union officials.

    ..and their pension plans enable a surviving spouse to collect the benefits long after the worker is dead. Next thing you know, the unions will be hounding the big three to pass the pensions on in wills to generation after generation of one workers offspring. Just how stupid can we get?

    The unions have raped the auto industry. They have impeded the airline industry with exception of a few companies whose employees refused to vote them in.

    Screw the unions.

    The workers should be able to compete for jobs based on what the market can afford (and it will pay all that it can afford) instead of some wage established by a greedy union. Let the unions continue to have their way and there won't be an industry to strike against.

    Screw the unions.

    If it weren't for all the fallout that will result from failure of the big three car makers, I'd welcome a collapse of the whole thing just to get rid of the UAW.

    Screw the unions.

    We have laws to protect workers that we did not have when the unions came along to help us get rid of child labor and virtual slavery. Non-union companies seem to work more productively and in doing so still pay their people a living wage. You sound as if you think the auto workers should each become rich for installing lugnuts and wiper blades.

    Screw the unions.

    The Japanese law regarding the salaries of management is ridiculous also. I see no problem with executive salaries being governed by the market for their skills. I do think the bonuses and escape parachutes are ridiculous, especially when piled on top of the multi-million dollar salaries.


    Screw the unions. Let wages seek the market value for ALL jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steeeeve View Post
    The Finland thing is not true and I doubt the Japan one is either. Finland does have a high tax rate and this is actually a problem they admit they have and it is believed to be responsible for not moving up faster in the world.

    Don't let the truth get in the way though.
    The truth hasn't bothered him before. Why should he change?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steeeeve View Post
    The Finland thing is not true and I doubt the Japan one is either. Finland does have a high tax rate and this is actually a problem they admit they have and it is believed to be responsible for not moving up faster in the world.
    Why is it a value to be "moving up faster in the world?"

  7. #67
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    Unions are the only means of levelling the playing field between workers and corporations. Laws of supply and demand simply do not work for employment, free movement of labour is a myth.
    “When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
    “It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
    "It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
    "We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

  8. #68
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    Thumbs down Capitalism - take from the needy and give to the greedy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jo Bennett View Post
    Unions are the only means of levelling the playing field between workers and corporations. Laws of supply and demand simply do not work for employment, free movement of labour is a myth.
    Jo, that's just exactly the point.

    The hard right religious radical lunatic fringe doesn't WANT there to be anywhere near a level playing field.

    They would reduce the wages of working people to such a level that they would be unable to buy the goods they made.

    Didn't you know that the rich are more favored in the eyes of God?

    Just ask John Calvin.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jo Bennett View Post
    Unions are the only means of levelling the playing field between workers and corporations.
    When they effectively sink the corporation, it only does harm to the workers in the long run.

    Not to mention all the mafia-union ties.

    ("No job, and industry goin' down? Ah, 'fogetaboutit. It was an offa you can't refuse.")
    Last edited by jyoshu; 12-13-2008 at 04:50 PM.
    “We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.” - Reagan

    "A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading."
    - C. S. Lewis

    "I suffer more harassment as a former homosexual than I ever did as an out and proud homosexual." - Greg Quinlan, PFOX

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by chester View Post
    Jo, that's just exactly the point.

    The hard right religious radical lunatic fringe doesn't WANT there to be anywhere near a level playing field.
    Leftist, pro-gay, pro-choice, anti-gun, anti-religion, environmentalist, people were uncommon when you were kid (unless you're lying about your age). And back when people actually respected their country, war protests and troop-bashing were almost unheard of. I don't believe that you're as old as you claim to be. Anyhow, Osama's definition of rich, as I said, has its way of dropping. It started at 250k. What is it now? 120k? Could be lower.

    They would reduce the wages of working people to such a level that they would be unable to buy the goods they made.
    Working? Are you saying that CEOs just sit there all day? You make it sound like typical American citizens live in sewers or cardboard boxes. There are people on that level, but you're exaggerating.

    Didn't you know that the rich are more favored in the eyes of God?

    Just ask John Calvin.
    Didn't you know that these kinds of comments make you a troll?
    My imaginary friend left me. He said his other friends didn't believe in me.

    Spending our way out of the recession is like drinking our way out of alcoholism.

    "My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
    ~ Thomas Jefferson

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jo Bennett View Post
    Unions are the only means of levelling the playing field between workers and corporations. Laws of supply and demand simply do not work for employment, free movement of labour is a myth.
    A local business, Peluso roofing, has workers whose wages are about the same as union workers. The difference is, workers for the Unions are on break half the time.
    My imaginary friend left me. He said his other friends didn't believe in me.

    Spending our way out of the recession is like drinking our way out of alcoholism.

    "My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
    ~ Thomas Jefferson

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethmi View Post
    A local business, Peluso roofing, has workers whose wages are about the same as union workers. The difference is, workers for the Unions are on break half the time.
    Evidence? Unions are simply a counterpoint of employer power. Recently my employer was going to be making people redundant at Christmas, after union pressure (and strikes) they've miraculously found the money to keep people in post and working until the end of August to give them time to find new work. And no, the shortage of money was not the fault of the employees, but financial mismanagement and lack of oversight on the part of the employer.
    “When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
    “It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
    "It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
    "We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethmi View Post
    Leftist, pro-gay, pro-choice, anti-gun, anti-religion, environmentalist, people were uncommon when you were kid (unless you're lying about your age). And back when people actually respected their country, war protests and troop-bashing were almost unheard of. I don't believe that you're as old as you claim to be.
    Yep, and proud of everything you list me as.

    Guess what, as a left/radical whose first vote was for Goldwater before I grew up, I have just as much right to fly the flag in front of my home as you do. I have just as much right to say the Pledge as you do.

    As Stephen Decatur said, "My country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be made right!"

    I'm sure you righties don't remember the last part.

    I, too, once respected our military, then My Lai, carpet bombing, Agent Orange, Abu Ghraib (Sp?), and cluster bombing happened, and I was educated.

    I realized that, if we act like our enemies to defeat our enemies, we have become what we say we despise.

    As to John Calvin, why not have someone read his Institutes of the Christian Religion to you in the original? You will find that what I posted is exactly true.

    Chester, H.S. Class of 1960, B.A., Class of 1964.

  14. #74
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    Individual wealth in Finland:
    From villa ownership to national leisure-time activity
    The construction of summer villas started in Finland already in the 19th century, but during the early years of Finnish independence, villa life was attainable only for a select few. In those days there were roughly 3,000 villas in Finland. Spending time at the summer cottage became a pastime for the entire population only in the 1950s. At the end of 2006 there were nearly half a million summer cottages in Finland.
    Hmm, interesting that Finns have such a good life, considering the incredible tax burden they are rumored to carry.

    Hmm, seems to me that all Scandinavian nations, all also rumored to have burdensome tax burdens, have an exquisitely high standard of living.

    Hmm, I wonder how the Hades that is ever possible?

    How can that be?

    Some so-called economics experts seem to believe that taxation and a high quality of life cannot co-exist.

    Are they in blinders perchance? Are they blinded by their very narrow political view of life?

    Hmm, I wonder.
    Brother, you can believe in stones as long as you do not hurl them at me. Wafa Sultan

    “War is an American way to teach geography,” British soldier

    War is sweet to those who have not tasted it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach. – Pindar

  15. #75
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    You're thinking of Sweden, Finlands taxes are relatively low. The top marginal rate is 31.5%, corporate taxes are also quite low.
    He or she who supports a State organized in a military way – whether directly or indirectly – participates in sin. Each man takes part in the sin by contributing to the maintenance of the State by paying taxes.

    ~ Gandhi

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