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Thread: I Challenge Jo Bennett To A Debate:

  1. #1
    Archangel Guest

    I Challenge Jo Bennett To A Debate:

    I am challenging Jo to a one on one debate about "How the bible views Homosexuality" for a couple of reasons. One to see real evidence one way or the other regarding whether or not the bible really condemns homosexuality, or if that is just a homophobic interpretation. Since Jo also claims to be religious, at least he wont attempt to question the legitimacy of the bible itself but this will be a debate about the accuracy of our interpretations. I base this challenge on these statement by Jo.

    Jo Bennett]
    You do exactly the same thing, you frequently talk about "gay apologist websites" with reference to translations of the Bible that son't condone your homophobia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jo Bennett
    You attack the sources because you don't like the conclusions. You are unable to refute the conclusions themselves so you dismiss the source itself. That is precisely what you accuse Penfold of doing. Also, your conflation of Jewish and Israeli is noted.

    Who are you to judge how the Bible was intended to be interpreted?
    Jo Bennett
    You really need to learn the difference between presenting an alternative explanation and proving that it is the correct one. You have done the former but not the latter.

    The parallel in this situation is apt because while it may not be possible to directly disprove the claims made by IRIS, the fact that they are a pro-Israel lobby group with a vested interest in demonising arabs does undermine them as a reliable source. You don't accept a pro-gay source, Penfold won't accept a pro-Israel source.
    And I will start by posting all of the verses in the bible referring to same gender sex.

    Taken from the HOLY BIBLE: NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION (C) 1978 by the New
    York Bible Society, used by permission of Zondervan Bible Publishers.

    GEN 19:1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was
    sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet
    them and bowed down with his face to the ground.

    2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can
    wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the
    morning." "No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."

    3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his
    house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they
    ate.

    4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of
    Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house.

    5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring
    them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

    6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him

    7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.

    8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring
    them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do
    anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

    9 "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came
    here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse
    than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break
    down the door.

    10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and
    shut the door.

    11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and
    old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

    12 The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here--sons-in-law,
    sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them
    out of here,

    13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD
    against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."

    ============================================

    LEV 18:22 "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is
    detestable.

    29 "'Everyone who does any of these detestable things--such persons must
    be cut off from their people.

    20:13 "'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them
    have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will
    be on their own heads.

    ================================================

    ROM 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their
    women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.

    27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and
    were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with
    other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things
    deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also
    approve of those who practice them.

    ===============================================

    1CO 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of
    God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
    adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

    10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers
    will inherit the kingdom of God.

    11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were
    sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by
    the Spirit of our God.

    =============================================

    1TI 1:8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

    9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers
    and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those
    who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

    10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers-
    -and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
    Last edited by Archangel; 07-28-2008 at 05:34 PM.

  2. #2
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    I can't see how going over this again will get us anywhere. Neither of us is an expert in Greek or Hebrew, it will simply be a case of appeals to authority on interpretations and translations. There is not a debate to be had here, just a restatement of position. My position is that there is more than one plausible translation of interpretation of each of the passages that you cite. There is no way that either of us can produce evidence on this beyond the aforementioned appeals to authority.

    As a consequence I respectfully decline your invitation.
    “When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
    “It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
    "It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
    "We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

  3. #3
    Archangel Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jo Bennett View Post
    I can't see how going over this again will get us anywhere. Neither of us is an expert in Greek or Hebrew, it will simply be a case of appeals to authority on interpretations and translations. There is not a debate to be had here, just a restatement of position. My position is that there is more than one plausible translation of interpretation of each of the passages that you cite. There is no way that either of us can produce evidence on this beyond the aforementioned appeals to authority.

    As a consequence I respectfully decline your invitation.
    Oh, I don't know, since you never actually defended your position with evidence but just disregarded mine out of hand, I thought that actually facing this issue could put it to rest for good. But you still aren't prepared to defend your claim I see. That sounds about right since your perspective is indefensible. How you, as someone who claims to respect the bible could insist that any of those passages above aren't perfectly clear in their message proves that attempting to have a rational debate with you would most likely be a waste of time anyway.

  4. #4
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    Didn't I deal with a lot of these off the top of my head, which you dismissed out of hand?

    http://www.4forums.com/political/showthread.php?t=11339
    The truth may be out there, but lies are in your head.

  5. #5
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    You did iangb, let's take Arch's post and modify it shall we?

    Since you [Arch] never actually defended your position with evidence but just disregarded mine out of hand, I thought that actually facing this issue could put it to rest for good. But you still aren't prepared to defend your claim I see. That sounds about right since your perspective is indefensible. How you, as someone who claims to respect the bible could insist that any of those passages above aren't perfectly clear in their message proves that attempting to have a rational debate with you would most likely be a waste of time anyway.

    lol. Succulent irony.
    "You are, of course, free to make your own calls on how much rationality you want to impose upon yourself." - Kronus

  6. #6
    Archangel Guest
    Sure I defended my position against his claims, which is why I didn't respond to his post. And I used a valid biblical source, not wikipedia which was dealing with Homosexuality and Christianity, not how the bible sees homosexuality as a sin from a theological point of view. All anyone need do is follow his own link and follow that debate for themselves. I wanted to debate with at least a person who believes in the bible, God and a spiritual perspective. And I was cutting it close with Jo at that.

    http://www.4forums.com/political/sho...07&postcount=8

  7. #7
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    I'm referring to the rest of your arguments. Much of them in the evolution forum.

    Arch, you're an inspiration. Your existence is a reminder to me to never lose my critical thinking skills. Never to stop using reason. To never stop applying logic. To never stop relying on facts rather then emotion. To never stop to see the flaws and circular reasoning in things.

    After all, if I stop those, I'll end up like you.
    "You are, of course, free to make your own calls on how much rationality you want to impose upon yourself." - Kronus

  8. #8
    Archangel Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by obvious_child View Post
    I'm referring to the rest of your arguments. Much of them in the evolution forum.

    Arch, you're an inspiration. Your existence is a reminder to me to never lose my critical thinking skills. Never to stop using reason. To never stop applying logic. To never stop relying on facts rather then emotion. To never stop to see the flaws and circular reasoning in things.

    After all, if I stop those, I'll end up like you.
    You think you're a critical thinker child, you think you're applying logic in what you believe and know in life. You actually believe that you're relying on facts rather than emotion in the foolishness you accept as factual reality such as your religion of evolution? All I can say to the delusions and the lies that you rely on as facts is, MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOU FOR THE BLINDNESS AND THE IGNORANCE THAT DEFINES YOU AS A PERSON. But I respect how confident you are as you go running through life towards destruction, with your fingers in your ears. As for being an inspiration I know I am, I wish I could say the same for you. You see, I've been where your at, so I know what it means to be spiritually dead. I wish you knew what life felt like because you would then truly see through my eyes.

  9. #9
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    You're funny Arch.
    "You are, of course, free to make your own calls on how much rationality you want to impose upon yourself." - Kronus

  10. #10
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    Sure I defended my position against his claims, which is why I didn't respond to his post. And I used a valid biblical source, not wikipedia which was dealing with Homosexuality and Christianity, not how the bible sees homosexuality as a sin from a theological point of view. All anyone need do is follow his own link and follow that debate for themselves.
    If they were to read the link, they would see that my use of Wikipedia was merely to get the list of bible quotes which, ironically, Archie uses in the OP to this thread, and that between me and Archie the more recent poster has been me.

    Perhaps you should read before you condemn?
    The truth may be out there, but lies are in your head.

  11. #11
    Archangel Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by iangb View Post
    If they were to read the link, they would see that my use of Wikipedia was merely to get the list of bible quotes which, ironically, Archie uses in the OP to this thread, and that between me and Archie the more recent poster has been me.

    Perhaps you should read before you condemn?
    As I said iangb, I have debated this issue in much more depth than you have come close to attaining. Here is the link to it here with Jo and others who broke in and around it. But none of them came close to supporting the premise that homosexuality is not condemned in the bible. Here is the original translation that cannot be denied as to its accuracy which has nothing at all to do with what I would personally believe in any way. http://www.4forums.com/political/sho...ion#post312261 Scroll back to post 205 to get to the beginning of the real evidence. And notice that you had already abandoned the debate by this time. I defy and challenge you to refute my evidence with equally valid and reliable translation sources that aren't specifically intended to promote homosexuality.
    Last edited by Archangel; 08-01-2008 at 01:18 AM.

  12. #12
    Archangel Guest
    Here's 1 cor. 6:1-9 in the original greek with the precise english translation. Notice how the english doesn't flow like most english translations? That's because this version is going for precise accuracy and not for easy reading. Now, Just click on the greek words in question and it will further define its meaning for you. Here they are at verse 9.
    http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvst...FRMB46C006.htm

    malakos
    mal-ak-os'

    of uncertain affinity; soft, i.e. fine (clothing); figuratively, a catamite:--effeminate, soft.

    ================================================== ============================================
    arsenokoites
    ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace

    from arrhn - arrhen 730 and koith - koite 2845; a sodomite:--abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.


    Or have you already conceded that this is way deeper than you intended to go in debating this issue?

  13. #13
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    Firstly, Corinthians (just as Romans and Timothy) is not the Word of God. Instead, it is a letter from Paul - who has previously demonstrated his Old Testament mentality.

    Looking at the rest of the passage quoted - 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. - before this point in the bible, there is little to say about 'drunkards'. A (Christian) source tells me that the warnings against drunkenness, in fact, all come from around Paul's era -Corinthians, Ephesians, Peter etc.

    So my first reason would be that the passage itself is from a corrupted human version of 'morality', just like Romans.

    My second would be that your translation is one of many. Here, for example, lists several others (yes, I googled 'arsenokoitai'. Meh.)
    The truth may be out there, but lies are in your head.

  14. #14
    Archangel Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by iangb View Post
    Firstly, Corinthians (just as Romans and Timothy) is not the Word of God. Instead, it is a letter from Paul - who has previously demonstrated his Old Testament mentality.
    Oh really? Since the content of the letters are too powerful and convicting in their content, you now reject them as the word of God? Great iangb, this statement in itself is ample evidence as to why it's a complete waste of time debating any spiritual issue with someone who is lacking any grasp at all regarding the authenticity of the bible.

    Since nothing else you have posted is the least bit valid or accurate, there is nothing more to say to you. I will let my posts stand as evidence you can't refute with valid theological sources. And by the way, religioustolerance.com isn't an honest theological source at all, but exists in order to oppose the accepted understandings and interpretations within the bible.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
    Since nothing else you have posted is the least bit valid or accurate, there is nothing more to say to you. I will let my posts stand as evidence you can't refute with valid theological sources. And by the way, religioustolerance.com isn't an honest theological source at all, but exists in order to oppose the accepted understandings and interpretations within the bible.
    Note here how Archangel, once again, dismisses sources he disagrees with, without saying why they're incorrect. This is precisely what he was accusing others of that led to this discussion in the first place.
    “When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
    “It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
    "It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
    "We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

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