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Thread: True communism- tried and found wanting!

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by CUNxTime View Post
    Again, the USSR is bigger than the US and has more resources. How come they weren't doing so well? You've got to admit that it is our SYSTEM that allows a country that isn't the biggest, the most populous, or with the most resources. Its the system.
    The climate certainly has an impact, as does the starting point, which you keep trying to wriggle out of. Russia only emancipated its serfs in the late 19th century, something which happened centuries earlier in western europe. It took the capitalist system 300 years to achieve what centralised planning managed in 50. It's also worth noting that during the quickest phases of development, both the US and western europe were heavily protectionist and supportive of their own industries, they developed best with the addition of central support, much as China is doing today and South Korea did previously.
    “When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
    “It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
    "It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
    "We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

  2. #32
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    Do you know what pre-communist Russia was like? What the rest of the eastern block areas were like? How advanced they were compared to the west?

    Well, for starters try this: my very own Slovenia was an averagely developed area of Austro-Hungary (how do you English call it, anyway?), and when it became a part of Yugoslavia, it benefited because it was suddenly the most advanced region of Yugoslavia.

    The US has had a long war free period to develop in while the soviet Russia started during an exhausting war, faced another war soon after, and even before the first war was underdeveloped.



    Anyway, all beside the point. The basics of communism were only barely tried. And not in russia - poor Yugoslavia took the most experimental approaches. Marx' ideas were a critique and a proposed solution to the excesses of capitalism gone rampant. WHile the methods he proposed are suspect, at least you may want to think about what it must have been like that people went for them.



    One final thought I'd like to offer, my own evaluation of communism: while it did not work out as it was supposed to (for starters, it never actually got implemented), it did offer an alternative to western capitalism, and the very existence of this alternative has made capitalist systems restrain themselves, which made capitalism better.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by CUNxTime View Post
    Again, the USSR is bigger than the US and has more resources. How come they weren't doing so well? You've got to admit that it is our SYSTEM that allows a country that isn't the biggest, the most populous, or with the most resources. Its the system.
    As other posters have pointed out, climate has a lot to do with it, as does the fact that they had their industrial revolution later than we did and did not have the socialist, anti private property policies that the US had in place to encourage productive resource utilization. Additionally, while they do have large amounts of some resources, they were not lucky enough to end up with literally millions of tons of gold that they could just wash out of streams or that could be accessed with 19th century mining technology.

    The USSR failed because we engaged them in an expensive proxy war for decades, after they took MASSIVE losses in WWII.
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by CUNxTime View Post
    Again, the USSR is bigger than the US and has more resources. How come they weren't doing so well? You've got to admit that it is our SYSTEM that allows a country that isn't the biggest, the most populous, or with the most resources. Its the system.
    Interestingly enough, it has relatively little to do with capitalism. The USSR industrialized and grew its GDP to relatively near the the US, except it did it in 30~40 years where the US took 200. Britain took even longer. That's a serious accomplishment. What is preventing Russia to grow outside of hydrocarbons it is serious lack of the necessary legal and regulatory framework for capitalism to function. Perestroika & Glasnost essentially screwed over Russia. Too much too soon. It's not Communism vs Capitalism that is preventing Russian growth. It is the lack of a proper legal and regulatory framework.
    "You are, of course, free to make your own calls on how much rationality you want to impose upon yourself." - Kronus

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jo Bennett View Post
    The climate certainly has an impact, as does the starting point, which you keep trying to wriggle out of. Russia only emancipated its serfs in the late 19th century, something which happened centuries earlier in western europe. It took the capitalist system 300 years to achieve what centralised planning managed in 50. It's also worth noting that during the quickest phases of development, both the US and western europe were heavily protectionist and supportive of their own industries, they developed best with the addition of central support, much as China is doing today and South Korea did previously.
    The USSR wasn't EVER able to properly support its people. The only reason that system was able to last as long as it did was because the people were beaten into submission. The people of the USSR and other communist countries only allowed the system to persist because they either were 1. in control or 2. controlled. That communist could ever compete with capitalism is impossible and wouldn't have lasted half as long as it did without the iron fist of the govt.

    @dae You want to talk about Massive losses, Stalin killed 20,000,000 people. Obviously they had population to spare.

    @ O.C. I'm talking more about the USSR, not so much the problems of Russia today (which are many). The point is that A. communism never competed with capitalism economically since we were able to win the Guns AND Butter races and B. the main difference is that people in capitalist societies participate because they CAN and in Communist countries because the HAVE to. People are much more productive doing things that the choose to do rather than things they are forced to do....
    -Computer $1500.00
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by CUNxTime View Post
    The USSR wasn't EVER able to properly support its people. The only reason that system was able to last as long as it did was because the people were beaten into submission. The people of the USSR and other communist countries only allowed the system to persist because they either were 1. in control or 2. controlled. That communist could ever compete with capitalism is impossible and wouldn't have lasted half as long as it did without the iron fist of the govt.
    And then somebody whispers "Sweden" and your entire argument swirls down the toilet. Sweden is a nation of granola crunching socialists and they have the highest standard of living in the world...higher even than the US.

    I admit that I have not kept up on world events quite as well since I retired, but I have not seen any stories about Swedish death camps or about the tyrannical conditions under which the swedes live.

    @dae You want to talk about Massive losses, Stalin killed 20,000,000 people. Obviously they had population to spare.
    They did have population to spare....especially since so much of their industrial infrastructure and so many of their major cities had been completely WIPED OUT. That is why we won the "guns and butter" race. They had to start the race by building an entirely new industrial infrastructure and rebuilding several major cities. We started the race with a brand new industrial infrastructure and no war damage.

    In that same vein...how many European nations, which started rebuilding at the same time as the Soviets, but with massive aid from the US, managed to rebuild into a superpower?? I can not think of any off the top of my head.
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

  7. #37
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    I don't think the all the people in the US participate out of choice, for many they are forced to work horrendous hours for sub-survivable wages in order to scrape by. The unemployed are forced into work long distances from home simply to satisfy the middle class lust for punishment of the poor, with no thought to helping them secure retraining and a long term future. Not to mention all those living with chronic illnesses because they can't afford insurance or medical fees.
    “When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
    “It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
    "It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
    "We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jo Bennett View Post
    I don't think the all the people in the US participate out of choice, for many they are forced to work horrendous hours for sub-survivable wages in order to scrape by. The unemployed are forced into work long distances from home simply to satisfy the middle class lust for punishment of the poor, with no thought to helping them secure retraining and a long term future. Not to mention all those living with chronic illnesses because they can't afford insurance or medical fees.
    Jo, even unemployeed people on welfare have flatscreen tvs and cable.
    -Computer $1500.00
    -Monthly internet connection $35.00
    -Monthly electricity bill $245.00
    -Convincing a Socialist that incentive is the mother of motivation,

    Priceless!

  9. #39
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by daewoo View Post
    And then somebody whispers "Sweden" and your entire argument swirls down the toilet. Sweden is a nation of granola crunching socialists and they have the highest standard of living in the world...higher even than the US.
    Except the difference is that Sweden makes its money laundering everyone ELSE'S dirty money.

    I admit that I have not kept up on world events quite as well since I retired, but I have not seen any stories about Swedish death camps or about the tyrannical conditions under which the swedes live.
    No, and if the US was a tiny, mountainous, homogeneous country made of gold and banks full of well educated people who don't mind working for a living, we probably wouldn't have half the problems we have here today. But of course, then everyone would be speaking German, Italian, and Japoneese and the world would be just GREAT! yeehaa!


    They did have population to spare....especially since so much of their industrial infrastructure and so many of their major cities had been completely WIPED OUT. That is why we won the "guns and butter" race. They had to start the race by building an entirely new industrial infrastructure and rebuilding several major cities. We started the race with a brand new industrial infrastructure and no war damage.

    In that same vein...how many European nations, which started rebuilding at the same time as the Soviets, but with massive aid from the US, managed to rebuild into a superpower?? I can not think of any off the top of my head.

    Actually, their industrial infrastructure was put on trains and moved East to avoid war damage AND the US gave them plenty of Aid during the war. But I guess the fact that the entire 100,000,000 (-20,000,000 killed) population were basically slave labor helped too! And they were able to keep them enslaved for about 50 more years, until they realized its better to be free (and have butter and TV's)
    -Computer $1500.00
    -Monthly internet connection $35.00
    -Monthly electricity bill $245.00
    -Convincing a Socialist that incentive is the mother of motivation,

    Priceless!

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by CUNxTime View Post
    Jo, even unemployeed people on welfare have flatscreen tvs and cable.
    Prove it. Prove that every unemployed person has cable and a flatscreen TV. Heck, prove to me that more than half have them.

    EDIT: learn the difference between Sweden and Switzerland.
    “When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
    “It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
    "It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
    "We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jo Bennett View Post
    Prove it. Prove that every unemployed person has cable and a flatscreen TV. Heck, prove to me that more than half have them.
    I happen to know many people who receive benefits of various kinds. The particular example I was thinking of is a couple who have (including 2 of hers from a previous relationship) 4 kids, a drug problem, AND a computer and a flat screen TV. They get jobs every now and then but, as I said, still manage to keep the cable on (most of the time). Also, as I've said before, I grew up very poor in MD. I knew many people (and still do) who got food stamps (now called the independence card ) and HBO, they didn't have flat screens then-lol. There many, many examples of this. Our poor should be the envy of the world (or are) and most of their problems are, one way or another, of their own making.


    EDIT: learn the difference between Sweden and Switzerland.
    LOL, my glasses broke and its getting rather embarrassing
    -Computer $1500.00
    -Monthly internet connection $35.00
    -Monthly electricity bill $245.00
    -Convincing a Socialist that incentive is the mother of motivation,

    Priceless!

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by CUNxTime View Post
    LOL, my glasses broke and its getting rather embarrassing
    I too would be embarrassed, if I was as ignorant as you.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysticjbyrd View Post
    I too would be embarrassed, if I was as ignorant as you.
    Hey there, I've really never done any of these argument sites but my brother, Cunxtime (or Sep to the rest of us) really enjoyed it. He may have been many things but ignorant wasn't one of them. It cool though that a lot of his thoughts are here on this site. He talked a lot about his discussions. I'm going to try to figure out how this works and make an account...it's weird enough using his old computer. Give me a while to read through these old comments and I'll take a shot at defending him...certainly not as well as he would but still I can't have someone insulting my dead brother.
    -Computer $1500.00
    -Monthly internet connection $35.00
    -Monthly electricity bill $245.00
    -Convincing a Socialist that incentive is the mother of motivation,

    Priceless!

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by CUNxTime View Post
    Hey there, I've really never done any of these argument sites but my brother, Cunxtime (or Sep to the rest of us) really enjoyed it. He may have been many things but ignorant wasn't one of them. It cool though that a lot of his thoughts are here on this site. He talked a lot about his discussions. I'm going to try to figure out how this works and make an account...it's weird enough using his old computer. Give me a while to read through these old comments and I'll take a shot at defending him...certainly not as well as he would but still I can't have someone insulting my dead brother.
    Cunxtime was liked and respected by all but a few on this site.
    Dont be too offended by some insults..We all give and recieve them from time to time,its part of the fun!
    Thank you for confiming what most of us suspected but the person that insulted Sep would not have known that he had passed away.
    Maybe you will stick around and become one of the regular combatants!
    Please give my/our regards to Seps widow who was kind enough to let us know how ill he was.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by CUNxTime View Post
    Hey there, I've really never done any of these argument sites but my brother, Cunxtime (or Sep to the rest of us) really enjoyed it. He may have been many things but ignorant wasn't one of them. It cool though that a lot of his thoughts are here on this site. He talked a lot about his discussions. I'm going to try to figure out how this works and make an account...it's weird enough using his old computer. Give me a while to read through these old comments and I'll take a shot at defending him...certainly not as well as he would but still I can't have someone insulting my dead brother.
    You have my condolences over the passing of your brother.
    ‎"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." — Isaac Asimov

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