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Thread: Put up or shut up time

  1. #1
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    Put up or shut up time

    Archangel in recent weeks has made it a habit to continually accuse me (and others, but I'll let them speak for themselves) of what amounts to pathological dishonesty. Time after time, when confronted, he refuses to actually validate this claim. Instead, he begins name calling while saying I am the one who constantly insults him. His latest offence occured in this post today. Thanks to admin, I now have a forum where I can challenge AA to back up his claims of my continual dishonesty, rather than derailing an existing thread to defend myself.

    So, what of it Archie? Are you going to provide a few examples of my continual dishonesty? Keep in mind, me trying to actually get an answer out of you does not constitute lying (see this thread for an example of this definition of "lying" by Archie). I want examples of where I deliberately and knowingly either posted, engaged in, or perpetuated a lie.
    "Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night."
    Isaac Asimov

    "Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived"
    Oscar Wilde

  2. #2
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    As expected, AA is the target of many.

  3. #3
    Archangel Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by T.Q View Post
    Archangel in recent weeks has made it a habit to continually accuse me (and others, but I'll let them speak for themselves) of what amounts to pathological dishonesty. Time after time, when confronted, he refuses to actually validate this claim. Instead, he begins name calling while saying I am the one who constantly insults him. His latest offence occured in this post today. Thanks to admin, I now have a forum where I can challenge AA to back up his claims of my continual dishonesty, rather than derailing an existing thread to defend myself.

    So, what of it Archie? Are you going to provide a few examples of my continual dishonesty? Keep in mind, me trying to actually get an answer out of you does not constitute lying (see this thread for an example of this definition of "lying" by Archie). I want examples of where I deliberately and knowingly either posted, engaged in, or perpetuated a lie.
    First of all, you are again lying by claiming that i have never supported my assertions that you have purposely misinterpreted what i have said in order to twist my arguments completely out of context. I have pointed it out at the time and refuse to play your childish games, or submit to your ridiculous demands. And secondly, posting a 8 page thread as evidence that I have lied is just another example of your deceptive and corrupt methods of making accusations you can't support. Who among us will read more than 80 posts in order to find the one I allegedly lied in? Don't you know how to post an individual post that proves your point?

    I suspect you really don't want to because in the process your own deceptive and philosophical cowardice will be exposed for what it is. So I'll tell you what TQ, if you really want to go forward and prove I am such a liar, post the specific alleged lies I have told and I will, by using your own examples show how you have abused, misinterpreted, corrupted and outright lied about my responses as you twisted what i have said in so many, if not all debates we have had. So I'll adopt your battle cry TQ, PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!!
    ================================================== ===============================================


    Just to make things interesting TQ, and only because this just jumped out at me, I see no reason not to point out one excellent example of your corrupt and disingenuous tactics.

    Here on the cave painting thread, after I had magnanimously conceded to Kronus about the 1656 years between Adam and Noah, shown here: http://www.4forums.com/political/sho...1&postcount=57 you, being the ungracious and sanctimonious thug that you are, made this post accusing me of changing the goal posts now and reverting to the estimated 6000 year creation date when my argument of the time span between Adam and Noah was accepted as accurate. Here is your post.

    http://www.4forums.com/political/sho...9&postcount=73

    Now here is my very first post in that thread regarding the subject of the date of the World. And as you can see, it was based on the over all Creation age, not just the time span between Adam and Noah.

    http://www.4forums.com/political/sho...04&postcount=6

    So why would you accuse me of changing the goal posts when i was simply restating the very original concern i had from my earliest post on this subject? Is that what you call honest debating TQ?
    Last edited by Archangel; 02-19-2008 at 06:50 PM.

  4. #4
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    As expected, AA is the target of many.
    Yeah, look at us all attack him! Oh,wait. No, he's the one making allegations, while I'm asking him to actually support them. How is saying "Stop calling me a liar unless you can prove it" an attack? Are you both from Bizarro world or what?


    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
    First of all, you are again lying by claiming that i have never supported my assertions that you have purposely misinterpreted what i have said in order to twist my arguments completely out of context. I have pointed it out at the time and refuse to play your childish games, or submit to your ridiculous demands. And secondly, posting a 8 page thread as evidence that I have lied is just another example of your deceptive and corrupt methods of making accusations you can't support. Who among us will read more than 80 posts in order to find the one I allegedly lied in? Don't you know how to post an individual post that proves your point?

    I suspect you really don't want to because in the process your own deceptive and philosophical cowardice will be exposed for what it is. So I'll tell you what TQ, if you really want to go forward and prove I am such a liar, post the specific alleged lies I have told and I will, by using your own examples show how you have abused, misinterpreted, corrupted and outright lied about my responses as you twisted what i have said in so many, if not all debates we have had. So I'll adopt your battle cry TQ, PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!!
    Oh, Archie, you just put a big smile on my face. You want me to show where you've lied? OK, here's just one of your recent hits:

    1) Pandion catches you quote mining your siggy here

    2) You respond by saying it's not a quote mine here

    3) You pull your usual tactic when your caught in a lie here. You see it as an unfair attack and try to make the one who caught you lying look like the bad guy. You for some reason don't see that when you post something inaccurate/false in support of your argument, you are the one responsible for fact checking it. As I stated here, the fact that you post so many fraudulent links means one of three things:
    a) you didn't know any better, i.e. your knowledge of the subject your attempting to debate is too little to recognize falsehood, or
    b) you didn't bother to research the claims made in the link you posted as support for your position. i.e) you're lazy/incompetent, and just post things that you believe support you without actually verifying the information, or
    c) you recognized the falsehoods and posted the link anyway, making you a liar and fraud as well.

    As a sidenote, the fact that you constantly state that you abandon threads because we twist what you sayis especially hypocritical due to your reliance on quote mines. I've posted one of my responses to you, along with your claim of my "twisting" what you said, despite quoting you verbatim. I'd also like the readers to know this was Archie's last response of any substance in that thread. He couldn't answer me, so he accused me of dishonesty, insulted me, and ran.

    4)OK, back to the siggy. After declaring your innocence of quote mining, we flash forward to about 8-9 days later. In response to your insistence that it I twisted what you said to mean something completely different, I brought up when Pandion caught you quote mining your signature. You respond here.

    For those reading along, this is what Archie's siggy was:
    "can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?"
    This is what he claims it always was:
    "can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?"

    5) When confronted about this by myself, O_C and Electrolyte, you responded as such, using your usual tactic of claiming innocence while blaming those who've caught you out.

    6) Electrolyte found a google cache page showing that you had changed your siggy. Giant Oreo copied and pasted it here

    To sum up:
    1) you had a quote mine as your signature
    2) you were called on it. You stated it wasn't a quote mine, as you copied it from a web site (it doesn't matter if you mined it or found it already mined, it's a quote mine)
    3) You ranted about being attacked because you were again caught being dishonest
    4) You state that I misrepresented what you said, when I quoted you verbatim. Continual requests for clarification resulted in nothing from you. To clarify what twisting what someone is saying actually looks like, I referenced the quote mine signature that Pandion uncovered.
    5) It was at this point that it was discovered that you had since changed your signature. You, however, tried to pretend that you hadn't changed your signature by copying your current (corrected) signature along with the source that Pandion had previously provided. You then claimed we were trying to "demonize" you by pointing out how you again were lying.
    6)Electrolyte found a google cache page, which Giant Oreo copied and pasted, proving that you had in fact changed your signature, despite your denials.

    There we go. That's one example of your dishonesty. I could also provide many more, as could OC, Electrolyte, Kronus, Pandion, and pretty much anyone else who's read your posts.
    "Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night."
    Isaac Asimov

    "Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived"
    Oscar Wilde

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by isly ilwott View Post
    As expected, AA is the target of many.
    but the difference is that we have evidence where he does not.
    "You are, of course, free to make your own calls on how much rationality you want to impose upon yourself." - Kronus

  6. #6
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    Just to be perfectly clear, this portion of Archie's post that I'm responding to was an edit, added on after I had begun my above posted response.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
    Just to make things interesting TQ, and only because this just jumped out at me, I see no reason not to point out one excellent example of your corrupt and disingenuous tactics.

    Here on the cave painting thread, after I had magnanimously conceded to Kronus about the 1656 years between Adam and Noah, shown here: http://www.4forums.com/political/sho...1&postcount=57
    And that is what I have been saying all along too. I'm not questioning what the bible DOES SAY. I'm questioning WHAT IT DOESN'T SAY. But for the time being, until I can support what bothers me about dating the Creation of the World using genealogies, then I must concede that this record from Adam to the flood is as accurate a record as is possibly available at this time according to the bible.
    You're basically saying here that you know you're right, but can't prove it. This is after five or so people tried to teach you second grade math to show you your error, and after your pastor told you you were wrong.

    you, being the ungracious and sanctimonious thug
    Here's the insults, as expected.

    that you are, made this post accusing me of changing the goal posts now and reverting to the estimated 6000 year creation date when my argument of the time span between Adam and Noah was accepted as accurate. Here is your post.

    http://www.4forums.com/political/sho...9&postcount=73
    Yes, I did accuse you of moving the goal posts. As did Pandion. That's because you did. Kronus' argument was to the maximum amount of time that could have elapsed between creation and present day, using the genealogies in the bible. You, in your "magnanimous withdrawal" stated that you still didn't agree with him that 6K years had passed between creation and the present (you favor the 30K-50K year range). You demanded that Kronus prove the genealogies between Adam and Noah was unbroken as chronicled in the bible. This tells me you don't read the bible much. And that is the point he proved. Using common sense and logic, Kronus explained to you after you "graciously" admitted you were wrong that you're "wanted date" of 30K-50K was impossible, here

    Now here is my very first post in that thread regarding the subject of the date of the World. And as you can see, it was based on the over all Creation age, not just the time span between Adam and Noah.

    http://www.4forums.com/political/sho...04&postcount=6

    So why would you accuse me of changing the goal posts when i was simply restating the very original concern i had from my earliest post on this subject? Is that what you call honest debating TQ?
    I may have actually been incorrect here. You didn't move the goal posts so much as removed them from the field.
    "Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night."
    Isaac Asimov

    "Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived"
    Oscar Wilde

  7. #7
    Archangel Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by T.Q View Post
    Yeah, look at us all attack him! Oh,wait. No, he's the one making allegations, while I'm asking him to actually support them. How is saying "Stop calling me a liar unless you can prove it" an attack? Are you both from Bizarro world or what?
    Oh, Archie, you just put a big smile on my face. You want me to show where you've lied? OK, here's just one of your recent hits:

    1) Pandion catches you quote mining your siggy here

    2) You respond by saying it's not a quote mine here

    To sum up:
    1) you had a quote mine as your signature
    2) you were called on it. You stated it wasn't a quote mine, as you copied it from a web site (it doesn't matter if you mined it or found it already mined, it's a quote mine)
    3) You ranted about being attacked because you were again caught being dishonest
    4) You state that I misrepresented what you said, when I quoted you verbatim. Continual requests for clarification resulted in nothing from you. To clarify what twisting what someone is saying actually looks like, I referenced the quote mine signature that Pandion uncovered.
    5) It was at this point that it was discovered that you had since changed your signature. You, however, tried to pretend that you hadn't changed your signature by copying your current (corrected) signature along with the source that Pandion had previously provided. You then claimed we were trying to "demonize" you by pointing out how you again were lying.
    6)Electrolyte found a google cache page, which Giant Oreo copied and pasted, proving that you had in fact changed your signature, despite your denials.
    This is precious, as usual. This isn't even worth responding to as it was about a lousy quote and not a debate subject at all. I never claimed to research quotes before using them so how did I lie just because I was cornered by you thugs. I get called out about a quote about Jefferson and because I am attacked over it I am lying about PURPOSELY QUOTE MINING IT, when I never even had a clue that it wasn't said by Jefferson exactly as I posted it. And then when I continued to insist that I posted it as I found it, you guys again accuse me of lying. Even though I corrected it to what Jefferson actually said so it would be an accurate reflection of his original quote. I mean, would you expect me to actually admit any error to you guys so you'll have ammo precisely like this to bring up forever?

    As evidence of why that is such a bad idea, go to Cave Drawings and start at post 57 where I conceded to kronus and then read the next 20 posts as your gang of thugs continued to pounce on me proving for all to see that none of you have a gracious or gentlemanly bone in your bodies. It wasn't until Peeling commented on how small you were acting that some of you had backed off, except for dane of course who is the newest Troll to join your ranks.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
    As evidence of why that is such a bad idea, go to Cave Drawings and start at post 57 where I conceded to kronus and then read the next 20 posts as your gang of thugs continued to pounce on me proving for all to see that none of you have a gracious or gentlemanly bone in your bodies.
    See, that's a lie there. You didn't concede, you waffled. You said you don't like the answer but can't show anything wrong with it, so you'll bide your time till you think of some other tack to take. Or, to quote you exactly:

    "I'm not questioning what the bible DOES SAY. I'm questioning WHAT IT DOESN'T SAY. But for the time being, until I can support what bothers me about dating the Creation of the World using genealogies, then I must concede that this record from Adam to the flood is as accurate a record as is possibly available at this time according to the bible. "

    To paraphrase Lincoln, putting the word "concede" in a sentence doesn't make it a concession. Trying to call waffling a "concesion" is not going to go unnoticed, or uncommented upon.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
    This is precious, as usual. This isn't even worth responding to as it was about a lousy quote and not a debate subject at all.
    Who said anything about debate subjects? You wanted an example of your dishonesty. This is one such example.

    I never claimed to research quotes before using them[/Quote]
    How do you not understand this!??!? If you post/quote somehting, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR DETERMINING ITS VERACITY. Failure to do so reflects poorly on you.

    so how did I lie just because I was cornered by you thugs.
    Again with the name calling. And that is not where you lied.

    I get called out about a quote about Jefferson and because I am attacked over it I am lying about PURPOSELY QUOTE MINING IT, when I never even had a clue that it wasn't said by Jefferson exactly as I posted it.
    No, you're either not understanding, or being dishonest again. You got called on a quote mine. Rather than say, "woops, my bad." and correcting it, you threw a hissy fit, saying we were attacking you, and you denied it was a quote mine because you copied and pasted it of a website.

    And then when I continued to insist that I posted it as I found it,
    Which makes no difference to whether or not it's a quote mine.

    you guys again accuse me of lying.
    No, we again told you that it didn't make a difference to whether or not it was a quote mine. Posting something without even attempting to verify its truth is intellectually dishonest and lazy. Once or twice, ok, a mistake has been made. But this is common with you.

    Even though I corrected it to what Jefferson actually said so it would be an accurate reflection of his original quote.
    Which you then tried to pretend you had never done!!!!

    I mean, would you expect me to actually admit any error to you guys so you'll have ammo precisely like this to bring up forever?
    At this point, I have to conclude that AA is severely lacking in basic ethical principles, and is seriously disconnected from reality. I am not saying this to flame him or otherwise insult him. This is the only logical explanation for this post.

    I'm going to trim of the last paragraph, as it consists of nothing but more insults, which is standard behaviour when AA is caught.
    "Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night."
    Isaac Asimov

    "Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived"
    Oscar Wilde

  10. #10
    Archangel Guest
    Gee TQ, I concluded months ago that you are severely lacking in any ethical principles, just like the rest of your gang is. That's why you travel in a pack like wolves, because you know that alone I will pummel you so you surround me and attack my arguments from every conceivable angle, thereby insuring that I never can get my footing or hold a train of thought. It is the cowardly method that allows you to claim victories over issues about a siggy when we were debating something real when that thread was derailed by such infantile minutia.

    Now, my challenge to you stands, to post lies I have told in debates on this forum, and I maintain that from your accusatory posts regarding my honesty, I will expose your own dishonesty and lies about what I debated at the time. So come on TQ, prove me a liar and I will use your own evidence to prove it is you who is the liar. And that same challenge goes out to obvious child and electrolyte.

  11. #11
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    ONE SPECIFIC ACCUSATION PER THREAD!

    Read before you post something please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Description
    If someone claims you are lying, you can use this forum to have them prove it. A quote and a link to the accusation are mandatory. Keep it to one specific accusation per thread. Remember, being mistaken or wrong is not necessarily lying.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
    Gee TQ, I concluded months ago that you are severely lacking in any ethical principles, just like the rest of your gang is. That's why you travel in a pack like wolves, because you know that alone I will pummel you so you surround me and attack my arguments from every conceivable angle, thereby insuring that I never can get my footing or hold a train of thought. It is the cowardly method that allows you to claim victories over issues about a siggy when we were debating something real when that thread was derailed by such infantile minutia.

    Now, my challenge to you stands, to post lies I have told in debates on this forum, and I maintain that from your accusatory posts regarding my honesty, I will expose your own dishonesty and lies about what I debated at the time. So come on TQ, prove me a liar and I will use your own evidence to prove it is you who is the liar. And that same challenge goes out to obvious child and electrolyte.
    Already been done, chum. I've already proven your a liar. In case you missed the point of this thread though, you were supposed to defend your assertion of my dishonesty. Again though, in a thread dedicated to this very idea, you can't do it. Again you just call me a liar, say it's obvious, then continue name-calling and insulting. Your idea of me being "dishonest" is me disagreeing with you, or using your arguments against you. We've already seen that in another thread in this forum. And here you've resorted to your tried 'n true tactic-if you have no argument, insult, insult, insult!

    Now, would you like to retract the names and accusations? Or do you want them to stand with absolutely no justification so admin can see them?
    "Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night."
    Isaac Asimov

    "Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived"
    Oscar Wilde

  13. #13
    Archangel Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by T.Q View Post
    Already been done, chum. I've already proven your a liar. In case you missed the point of this thread though, you were supposed to defend your assertion of my dishonesty. Again though, in a thread dedicated to this very idea, you can't do it. Again you just call me a liar, say it's obvious, then continue name-calling and insulting. Your idea of me being "dishonest" is me disagreeing with you, or using your arguments against you. We've already seen that in another thread in this forum. And here you've resorted to your tried 'n true tactic-if you have no argument, insult, insult, insult!

    Now, would you like to retract the names and accusations? Or do you want them to stand with absolutely no justification so admin can see them?
    As usual, you have selective memory as you ignore my evidence that proves the tactics you use around here. And you don't dare point to any more alleged times that you have accused me of lying because it will just expose your own. So if you want to hold that siggy derailment up as the one example of me lying then I guess we can now see that you and your gang has attempted to libel and defame me, not based on lies I have told, but based on your inability to defeat me in debates. Here's my evidence that I have done more than just call you a liar here, but have proven it.

    http://www.4forums.com/political/sho...39&postcount=3

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
    As usual, you have selective memory as you ignore my evidence that proves the tactics you use around here. And you don't dare point to any more alleged times that you have accused me of lying because it will just expose your own. So if you want to hold that siggy derailment up as the one example of me lying then I guess we can now see that you and your gang has attempted to libel and defame me, not based on lies I have told, but based on your inability to defeat me in debates. Here's my evidence that I have done more than just call you a liar here, but have proven it.

    http://www.4forums.com/political/sho...39&postcount=3
    Which has been addressed, and rebutted above. Why do you insist on repeating your arguments when they've already been adressed? Do you think that copying and pasting it for the umpteenth time somehow gives it added weight?

    I say again, back up your accusation that I lie, or withdraw it. That is all I will address from this point forward in this thread.
    "Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night."
    Isaac Asimov

    "Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived"
    Oscar Wilde

  15. #15
    Archangel Guest
    I did TQ, I proved it here:
    http://www.4forums.com/political/sho...39&postcount=3

    And you admitted it here:
    http://www.4forums.com/political/sho...50&postcount=6

    What more do you want?

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