Originally Posted by Easyrider

The Bible isn't a science book. It's more of an historical work. And if you think science can replicate ancient historical events then you're mistaken. Science can't even identify, with conclusive DNA evidence, who any of mans direct line ancestors are. Not a one of them. Nor can they replicate abiogenesis or even explain, in depth, the minute by minute accounts of how it allegedly occurred.

On the other hand, a great many famous Nobel Laureates and scientists believe in Jesus Christ and or a Creator God.

Scientists of the Christian Faith: A Presentation of the Pioneers, Practitioners and Supporters of Modern Science

"For the scientist that has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance. He is about to conquer the highest peak. As he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greated by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."
~Robert Jastrow (NASA Scientist) - God and the Astronomer

As for intelligence, Obama is supposedly smart, but like Bill Clinton with Monica Lewinsky, he doesn't possess Godly wisdom.

On top of a mountain of ignorance is where you will find religious people who have been sitting there for centuries?

Why would you post something like that, you stupid or something?

Originally Posted by gansao

But what happened to me was, far from being delusional, as real or more real than any event in my life. That includes my wedding day and the birth of my two sons." He added: "I've spent decades as a neurosurgeon at some of the most prestigous medical institutions in our country. I know that many of my peers hold as I myself did to the theory that the brain, and in particular the cortex, generates consciousness and that we live in a universe devoid of any kind of emotion, much less the unconditional love that I now know God and the universe have toward us.

"But that belief, that theory, now lies broken at our feet. What happened to me destroyed it


Afterlife exists says top brain surgeon - Telegraph

During his illness Dr Alexander says that the part of his brain which controls human thought and emotion "shut down" and that he then experienced "something so profound that it gave me a scientific reason to believe in consciousness after death."


This should leave the pseudo scientists flipping and flopping. A neuroscientist experiences an out of body experience when the part of the brain claimed to produce out of body experiences is destroyed. This is by no means proof of the afterlife but it is evidence that neuroscience has not progressed as far as the 3rd rate intellectuals would have us believe.

I happen to believe in life after death as well, because of the scientific fact that energy can never be created or destroyed, every thing that makes me who I am will always exist in some form.

But I ask why do we need God anymore? Why don't we put faith in things we know to be true?

Ez science is entirely based on replication of experiments and we do have a good picture of how we came into existence. The evidence in support of human evolution is so vast that its not really even debated in scientific circles. Unless you have evidence that can disprove the theory its what is going to be accepted and taught. Evolution is a scientific fact because we can observe it in nature.(just to be clear you should at least accept that Im assuming you disagree with the theory of human evolution but i may give you to much credit)

The bible is not a scientific document and can only be considered historical fiction therefore has no place in any argument that is based on truth. Third time I've had to tell you this.

Why as a society do we need god anymore? Has god been replaced with science?

Originally Posted by gansao

Afterlife exists says top brain surgeon - Telegraph

LMAO! Read all about it in my new book.

Originally Posted by captainrolfe

I happen to believe in life after death as well, because of the scientific fact that energy can never be created or destroyed, every thing that makes me who I am will always exist in some form.

Life after death as in the life that a rabbit has after a fox has eaten and assimilated it?

Originally Posted by captainrolfe

But I ask why do we need God anymore? Why don't we put faith in things we know to be true?

No one asks you to believe in God. Science is fine.Its the scientists I dont trust and pseudo scientists even less

Originally Posted by captainrolfe

Ez science is entirely based on replication of experiments and we do have a good picture of how we came into existence. The evidence in support of human evolution is so vast that its not really even debated in scientific circles. Unless you have evidence that can disprove the theory its what is going to be accepted and taught. Evolution is a scientific fact because we can observe it in nature.(just to be clear you should at least accept that Im assuming you disagree with the theory of human evolution but i may give you to much credit)

How do you know that we have a good picture of how we came into existence? Is it because you read it in National geographic...or that ' everybody knows'?
Could you possibly tell me in your own words how everything that exists came into existence?I define a ' good picture' as a complete explanation...how about you?
Some form of evolution must have occured( and still is) . That doesnt exclude a creator or an intelligent designer .In fact it would not be unreasonable to speculate this

Originally Posted by captainrolfe

The bible is not a scientific document and can only be considered historical fiction therefore has no place in any argument that is based on truth. Third time I've had to tell you this.

The fourth time you tell EZ will be as much of a failure as the previous three

Originally Posted by captainrolfe

Why as a society do we need god anymore? Has god been replaced with science?

In what way should we replace god with science? Should we worship the technology that has developed from it. I can understand you saying that we should abandon god but not replace god with a process .

Also what has the quote got to do with your post?

Originally Posted by Dani

LMAO! Read all about it in my new book.

This guy has been an author and co author of scores of medical publications and has an incredible academic record.
I doubt that he would publish this book for money..I doubt that he would need it.

The point is Dani that this person claims to have had an out of body experience at the time that ( according to science) the part of the brain that would produce out of body experiences was not working. This doesnt mean that he actually experienced heaven but it does mean that the scientific wisdom at the time was wrong.Concentrate on that...
If you read the the OP you will see how this is relevant . Hope your arse is OK .

Originally Posted by gansao

I doubt that he would publish this book for money..

Oh I'm sure he wouldn't!! LMAO! Go have a look at his website. LOL!

"Friends of Eternea is open for membership to the general public on a worldwide basis

Annual membership levels include:
$50 - $149 Supporter
$150 - $599 Advocate
$600 - $1,199 Angel
$1,200 and higher Archangel"
Eternea - the convergence of science and spirituality

The point is Dani that this person claims to have had an out of body experience at the time that ( according to science) the part of the brain that would produce out of body experiences was not working.

The point is, he's a charlatan trying to make money out out gullible godzombies. You can become one of his 'Archangels' for just €1,200...but he's not in it for the money mind you! LMFAO!!!

Hope your arse is OK .

Fine thanks. Yours?

Originally Posted by Dani

Oh I'm sure he wouldn't!! LMAO! Go have a look at his website. LOL!

"Friends of Eternea is open for membership to the general public on a worldwide basis

Annual membership levels include:
$50 - $149 Supporter
$150 - $599 Advocate
$600 - $1,199 Angel
$1,200 and higher Archangel"
Eternea - the convergence of science and spirituality

Heres another guy making money out of religion..http://richarddawkinsfoundation.org/..wicked aint it ?

Originally Posted by Dani

The point is, he's a charlatan trying to make money out out gullible godzombies. You can become one of his 'Archangels' for just €1,200...but he's not in it for the money mind you! LMFAO!!!

Is he spending the money on himself or using it to spread the word about his experience? Do some more research and get back to me.

Originally Posted by Dani

Fine thanks. Yours?

Mine doesnt fall off when I laugh.

The theory of relativity, The theory of atomic mass, The theory gravitational pull, The Theory of linear algebraic equations, and The theory of human evolution what these all have in common is the scientific theories. When something becomes a scientific theory it means we have a pretty good understanding of it. So as a scientific community in whole we have a pretty good understanding of are origins.

You miss understood the point science hasnt replaced god just made him obsolete. Like it has done in the past, centuries ago there was a common believe that god caused volcanic eruptions, tidal movements, and land to become infertile. But we now know what truly causes events like these. Today we know that everywhere in the observable universe things follow the same scientific laws, we have observed dying stars and know they can be reborn, measured the expansion of the universe, put together situations on how planets are formed, and created anti-matter. Everywhere in are observable universe from stars to atoms we have scientific laws that all cooperate and within these laws a christian version of god is not possible. Therefore if you have a understanding of basic science it has made god obsolete.

Originally Posted by gansao

Heres another guy making money out of religion..http://richarddawkinsfoundation.org/..wicked aint it ?

Well at least Dawkins doesn't have claims for professional malpractice stacked up against him...unlike the good doctor.

Is he spending the money on himself or using it to spread the word about his experience? Do some more research and get back to me.

OK, I've done the research and I'd say he uses the money to replenishing his bank balance after paying out compensation to all the patients that have brought claims against him for 'malpractice'.

Dr. Alexander III's Background Check
Malpractice
Malpractice history found

Settlement
Amount or Range: Average
Nature of Complaint: Practitioner Comments: Although cervical discectomy/fusion performed adjacent to intended level, patient had dramatic reduction in symptoms. Surgeon did not recognize that surgery performed one level above intended level due to favorable course. Patient’s symptoms recurred, requiring repeat surgery months after surgeon left practice. Settled in mediation at insurer’s recommendation to avoid litigation costs.

Settlement (6/8/2009)
Amount or Range: Average

Settlement
Amount or Range: Average
Nature of Complaint: Location: Worcester, MA Practitioner Comments: Patient developed infection in a deep brain stimulator. Infected unit was removed expeditiously, but a small plastic piece remained in her neck. This provided a nidus for ongoing infection, necessitating a second procedure for its removal. Patient hospitalized for 2 days, discharged with no ill effects. Insurer recommended settling out of court to avoid costs of litigation.

Sanctions
Sanctions history found
Disciplinary action in another state (6/21/2010)
Action Taken: Reprimand
Allegation of Complaint: Dr. Eben Alexander, III; License # 30888

Nature of Complaint:

The physician has been the subject of disciplinary action in another state.

The physician on 03-23-2009 entered into a Consent Order with the Virginia Board of Medicine related to the physician's treatment of two patients. The physician was issued a reprimand, imposed a fine, and required to complete continuing medical education in ethics and professionalism.

The physician on 06-27-2007 with regard to the first patient mistakenly performed a diskectomy and fusion surgery for a herniated disc at C4-5 instead of at C5-6 and failed to inform the patient of this in a timely manner.

The physician on 07-10-2007 with regard to the second patient mistakenly performed a diskectomy and fusion at C5-6 instead of at C6-7 and failed to follow-up in a timely manner on a postoperative x-ray report.

The physician as of 09-21-2009 satisfied the terms and conditions of the 03-23-2009 Virginia Board Consent Order. The physician currently has a full and unrestricted license to practice medicine in the State of Virginia.

Action Taken:

The physician has entered into a Consent Order with the North Carolina Medical Board as follows:

The physician has been issued a Reprimand by the board.
The physician shall obey all laws and all rules and regulations governing the practice of medicine.
The physician shall provide written notification to the board of any change in his residence and practice addresses within ten days.
The physician shall meet with the board or members of the board for an interview upon the board's request.

State: North Carolina

Unknown (6/16/2010)
Action Taken: Reprimand
Allegation of Complaint: Dr. Eben Alexander, III

Nature of Complaint:

Unknown at this time.

Action Taken-Consent Order

The physician has been issued a Reprimand by the Massachusetts Board of Registration in Medicine.
State: Massachusetts

Board action history found
Wrong-site surgery (3/23/2009)
Action Taken: Education
Allegation of Complaint: Dr. Eben Alexander, III; License # 0101239440

Nature of Complaint:

The physician on 06-27-2007 performed an anterior cervical diskectomy and allograft bone fusion on a patient at the wrong surgical site. The physician performed the surgery at C4-5 instead of at the intended C5-6. The physician also on 07-12-2007 after reviewing x-rays indicating that he performed the surgery at the wrong surgical site, failed to disclose the error to the patient. The physician also altered his original operative report to show that he performed the surgery at C4-5 and implied that the C4-5 was the intended site by stating that the pre-operative history and physical should have referred to C4-5 not C5-6 as the site of decompression. The physician made the same inaccurate statement in his 07-12-2007 letter to the patient’s referring physician and failed to disclose that wrong-site surgery had occurred. The physician did not disclose the surgical error to the patient until 10-11-2007.

The physician also on 07-10-2007 performed an anterior cervical diskectomy and allograft bone fusion on another patient at the wrong surgical site. The physician performed the surgery at C5-6 instead of at the intended C6-7. The physician also failed to follow up on the 07-11-2007 postoperative x-ray report in which the radiologist noted that the patient had undergone fusion of C5-6.

Action Taken:

The physician has entered into a Consent Order with the Virginia Board of Medicine subject to the following terms and conditions:

The physician has been issued a Reprimand by the board.
The physician shall pay a penalty in the amount of $3,500.00 within six months.
The physician shall complete twelve hours of board approved continuing medical education in ethics and professionalism within six months.
The physician shall submit satisfactory proof of completion of the required continuing medical education within twenty-one days to the board.
The physician shall comply with the requirements of Title 54.1, Chapter 29 of the Code and all laws of the State of Virginia.

September 21, 2009-Terms Terminated

The physician has complied with the terms and conditions pursuant to the 03-23-2009 Consent Order.

The Virginia Board of Medicine has terminated the terms placed on the physician’s license. The physician currently has a full and unrestricted license to practice medicine and surgery in the State of Virginia.
State: Virginia
Malpractice & Sanctions Information for Dr. Eben Alexander III, MD - Neurosurgery - Lynchburg, VA

[QUOTE=captainrolfe;464214]The theory of relativity, The theory of atomic mass, The theory gravitational pull, The Theory of linear algebraic equations, and The theory of human evolution what these all have in common is the scientific theories. When something becomes a scientific theory it means we have a pretty good understanding of it. So as a scientific community in whole we have a pretty good understanding of are origins..[/ QUOTE]

I do not think any scientist will state that science knows exactly how the universe ( indeed some think there are multi universes) originated. Science can take us back to the singularity that became the ' big bang' and then it breaks down. So science does have a good understanding of our ' origins' after the big bang. It cannot explain the big bang ( but can speculated with intelligent guesses, indeed some very intelligent ones but they are speculation all the same). There cannot be a ' before' the big bang but the singularity that became the universe was unlikely to come from nothing.
You must admit that there is a paradox here and until science can completely explain this paradox God will never be proven to be obsolete.In fact speculating that something outside our understanding of reality created what we perceive as reality and that creator actually created the laws that govern our reality is less counter intuitive than reasoning that reality is what it is because it is and the laws that govern our universe( and all the rest that are speculated) are the products of chance.

[QUOTE=captainrolfe;464214]You miss understood the point science hasnt replaced god just made him obsolete. Like it has done in the past, centuries ago there was a common believe that god caused volcanic eruptions, tidal movements, and land to become infertile. But we now know what truly causes events like these. Today we know that everywhere in the observable universe things follow the same scientific laws, we have observed dying stars and know they can be reborn, measured the expansion of the universe, put together situations on how planets are formed, and created anti-matter. Everywhere in are observable universe from stars to atoms we have scientific laws that all cooperate and within these laws a christian version of god is not possible. Therefore if you have a understanding of basic science it has made god obsolete.[/ QUOTE]

The view that God creates volcanic eruptions , planets and butterflys can be just as valid as it was in the days before scientific knowledge if one believes that god created the laws that govern the universe. Im not saying God DID create the universe, I am saying that scientific knowledge cannot make the notion of a creator God obsolete until it can create a model in which God cannot be squeezed in. Good luck with that . People seem to need a God, one doesnt need the aid of neuroscience to see that.
However the question is, do we need God because God actually exists or do we need the notion of a universal chief and father that can make our moral decisions for us and deliver us from death ?
Maybe when science can tell us exactly how reality works, how to live our lives and how we can become immortal then God will become obsolete.
Strangely enough the Bible seems to suggest that God will destroy humans just before humans think they dont need him...spooky eh?
The early Christian fathers knew a thing or two about the human psyche.

Originally Posted by Dani

Well at least Dawkins doesn't have claims for professional malpractice stacked up against him...unlike the good doctor.

OK, I've done the research and I'd say he uses the money to replenishing his bank balance after paying out compensation to all the patients that have brought claims against him for 'malpractice'.

Dr. Alexander III's Background Check
Malpractice
Malpractice history found

Settlement
Amount or Range: Average
Nature of Complaint: Practitioner Comments: Although cervical discectomy/fusion performed adjacent to intended level, patient had dramatic reduction in symptoms. Surgeon did not recognize that surgery performed one level above intended level due to favorable course. Patient’s symptoms recurred, requiring repeat surgery months after surgeon left practice. Settled in mediation at insurer’s recommendation to avoid litigation costs.

Settlement (6/8/2009)
Amount or Range: Average

Settlement
Amount or Range: Average
Nature of Complaint: Location: Worcester, MA Practitioner Comments: Patient developed infection in a deep brain stimulator. Infected unit was removed expeditiously, but a small plastic piece remained in her neck. This provided a nidus for ongoing infection, necessitating a second procedure for its removal. Patient hospitalized for 2 days, discharged with no ill effects. Insurer recommended settling out of court to avoid costs of litigation.

Sanctions
Sanctions history found
Disciplinary action in another state (6/21/2010)
Action Taken: Reprimand
Allegation of Complaint: Dr. Eben Alexander, III; License # 30888

Nature of Complaint:

The physician has been the subject of disciplinary action in another state.

The physician on 03-23-2009 entered into a Consent Order with the Virginia Board of Medicine related to the physician's treatment of two patients. The physician was issued a reprimand, imposed a fine, and required to complete continuing medical education in ethics and professionalism.

The physician on 06-27-2007 with regard to the first patient mistakenly performed a diskectomy and fusion surgery for a herniated disc at C4-5 instead of at C5-6 and failed to inform the patient of this in a timely manner.

The physician on 07-10-2007 with regard to the second patient mistakenly performed a diskectomy and fusion at C5-6 instead of at C6-7 and failed to follow-up in a timely manner on a postoperative x-ray report.

The physician as of 09-21-2009 satisfied the terms and conditions of the 03-23-2009 Virginia Board Consent Order. The physician currently has a full and unrestricted license to practice medicine in the State of Virginia.

Action Taken:

The physician has entered into a Consent Order with the North Carolina Medical Board as follows:

The physician has been issued a Reprimand by the board.
The physician shall obey all laws and all rules and regulations governing the practice of medicine.
The physician shall provide written notification to the board of any change in his residence and practice addresses within ten days.
The physician shall meet with the board or members of the board for an interview upon the board's request.

State: North Carolina

Unknown (6/16/2010)
Action Taken: Reprimand
Allegation of Complaint: Dr. Eben Alexander, III

Nature of Complaint:

Unknown at this time.

Action Taken-Consent Order

The physician has been issued a Reprimand by the Massachusetts Board of Registration in Medicine.
State: Massachusetts

Board action history found
Wrong-site surgery (3/23/2009)
Action Taken: Education
Allegation of Complaint: Dr. Eben Alexander, III; License # 0101239440

Nature of Complaint:

The physician on 06-27-2007 performed an anterior cervical diskectomy and allograft bone fusion on a patient at the wrong surgical site. The physician performed the surgery at C4-5 instead of at the intended C5-6. The physician also on 07-12-2007 after reviewing x-rays indicating that he performed the surgery at the wrong surgical site, failed to disclose the error to the patient. The physician also altered his original operative report to show that he performed the surgery at C4-5 and implied that the C4-5 was the intended site by stating that the pre-operative history and physical should have referred to C4-5 not C5-6 as the site of decompression. The physician made the same inaccurate statement in his 07-12-2007 letter to the patient’s referring physician and failed to disclose that wrong-site surgery had occurred. The physician did not disclose the surgical error to the patient until 10-11-2007.

The physician also on 07-10-2007 performed an anterior cervical diskectomy and allograft bone fusion on another patient at the wrong surgical site. The physician performed the surgery at C5-6 instead of at the intended C6-7. The physician also failed to follow up on the 07-11-2007 postoperative x-ray report in which the radiologist noted that the patient had undergone fusion of C5-6.

Action Taken:

The physician has entered into a Consent Order with the Virginia Board of Medicine subject to the following terms and conditions:

The physician has been issued a Reprimand by the board.
The physician shall pay a penalty in the amount of $3,500.00 within six months.
The physician shall complete twelve hours of board approved continuing medical education in ethics and professionalism within six months.
The physician shall submit satisfactory proof of completion of the required continuing medical education within twenty-one days to the board.
The physician shall comply with the requirements of Title 54.1, Chapter 29 of the Code and all laws of the State of Virginia.

September 21, 2009-Terms Terminated

The physician has complied with the terms and conditions pursuant to the 03-23-2009 Consent Order.

The Virginia Board of Medicine has terminated the terms placed on the physician’s license. The physician currently has a full and unrestricted license to practice medicine and surgery in the State of Virginia.
State: Virginia
Malpractice & Sanctions Information for Dr. Eben Alexander III, MD - Neurosurgery - Lynchburg, VA

Thats very good! Well done!
Unfortunately none of your research actually shows any evidence that
a) The doctor is spending the money earned from his website on himself( minus expenses, expenses are fine)
The last part of your research suggests that the doctor is still practicing ( or at least is licensed to do so) so he is probably earning well( whats the going rate for a neurosurgeon?)
b) that he did not experience the ' hallucination' that was the out of body experience.

Also I would like to see just how common reprimands , complaints and eventual settlements are amongst surgeons, particularly neurosurgeons.
This might be far more common than one might expect and considering he still had a licence to practice in 2009 I doubt that he is considered incompetent by the authorities.

So nice try but no cigar

Originally Posted by gansao

Unfortunately none of your research actually shows any evidence that
a) The doctor is spending the money earned from his website on himself( minus expenses, expenses are fine)

Perhaps not but it is verifiable evidence of his professional incompetence..

The last part of your research suggests that the doctor is still practicing ( or at least is licensed to do so)....

Even someone that kills a child in a hit-and-run when driving whilst drunk gets his licence back and is allowed to drive again. It doesn't alter what he's done.

b) that he did not experience the ' hallucination' that was the out of body experience.

Why should I have to show evidence for that. He's the one that's making the claim..let him show that it's true.

whats the going rate for a neurosurgeon?

Clearly not as much as someone that can sell bullcrap to gullible godzombies. Face it dude. He's an opportunistic charlatan who is preying on people's fears in order to sell a book.

PS. Have you sent him $1200 yet...so that you can be one of his 'angels' LMFAO!!


Newsweek panders to the deluded again – Pharyngula

Originally Posted by Dani

Perhaps not but it is verifiable evidence of his professional incompetence..

So you went out looking for apples and came back with oranges.
You havent shown that his ' incompetence' has anything to do with his claim

Originally Posted by Dani

Even someone that kills a child in a hit-and-run when driving whilst drunk gets his licence back and is allowed to drive again. It doesn't alter what he's done.

It doesnt alter that you have done nothing to show that his site is simply for monetary gain either
Also please show that the criteria for getting your driving licence back after killing a child when drunk driving is similar to the criteria for keeping a licence to practice neurosurgery after a reprimand or admit your comparison was worthless hyperbole

Originally Posted by Dani

Why should I have to show evidence for that. He's the one that's making the claim..let him show that it's true.

Good point.Now show your claim is true

Originally Posted by Dani

Clearly not as much as someone that can sell bullcrap to gullible godzombies. Face it dude. He's an opportunistic charlatan who is preying on people's fears in order to sell a book.

Possibly but you havent even started to prove this assertion

Originally Posted by Dani

PS. Have you sent him $1200 yet...so that you can be one of his 'angels' LMFAO!!

I note that you tend to insult people when you cannot prove your point. Hows your arse?

Originally Posted by Dani

Newsweek panders to the deluded again – Pharyngula

Blogs can be written by anyone. This one has no more value than your speculation

Originally Posted by captainrolfe

We are at the very tip of an age of enlightenment and reason where intelligence and knowledge are more available than ever before. Today no honest and informed person can maintain that the universe came into being a few thousand years ago and assumed its current form in six days. Neuroscience can explain why people are drawn to the belief in a higher power, neuroscience and psychology can explain the human experience our soul. The study of earth life has shown that evolution is an observable fact in nature and we have the theories of human evolution that build more evidence every day. Morality has been proven to not even need a god for it is a natural rewarded part of the human existence.

More and more with each scientific advancement, breakthrough, and greater understanding it shows that this world no longer needs gods. The day we put the money we spend on religion into science and understanding will be the greatest day in the history of humanity.

Quite to the contrary. We are at a point where the enlightenment is slowing down with the masses. The exact opposite is happening. According to Richard Dawkins, there is an alarming trend of people regressing from reason and logic. We are living in a time of reverse enlightenment (dibbs on coining the term). A positive stigma is placed on those who "turn to god and preach his word"... We live in a time where it is popular in school to stand up in front of your biology teacher and say, "No! God made that dinosaur and Jesus rode one!" then storm out. Knowing that a religious community will back them up and make them feel good for disrupting a place of learning.