Originally Posted by Easyrider

Isaiah 53:How Do the Rabbis Interpret This?

You posted this nonsense before, and it was busted.

Brown took a very selective and partial quote out of Driver and Neubauer. He didn't identify for his readers anything about R' Moshe Alshich which would XXXX away his argument that he "claimed Isaiah 53 refers to the messiah."

Now let me address the misuse and out of context "quote" of his Brown gave from D&N. Moshe el Sheikh was R Moshe Alshich.

R Moshe Alshich lived from 1508-1593.

But Alshich lived 500 years after Rashi supposedly changed the Jewish concept of the servant from the messiah to Israel. How does Brown explain this major time discrepency? He doesn't. Brown is notorious for throwing out references and quotes with abandon hoping that there is so much mud thrown up that no one will bother to check each one of his facts -- or if they did the reader / listener would get so bored they'd tune out the truth.

Now if Rashi CHANGED the servant from the messiah to Israel 500 years before R' Ashlich then why would any Jew state as a fact that the servant is the mesiah? Does this make any sense? Did Alshich not know the Jews had conspired to changed the interpretation (per Chrstians like Brown)?

So already you can see this doesn't make sense. The literal meaning of the servant in Isaiah is Israel. Using homily the servant has been applied to many different people -- including Moses, Abraham and others.

Have you ever heard of PaRDeS? Torah is understood on many levels, PaRDeS.

* P'shat (פְּשָׁט) - the "plain" ("simple") meaning of a passage
a
* Remez (רֶמֶז) - "hints" implied in the text but not explicit

* Drash (דְּרַשׁ) - which is a deeper or even midrashic meaning -- often inferred from other scripture
e
* Sod (סוֹד) - "secret" ("mystery") meanings

These four levels (PaRDeS) are all valid, but the meaning of a passage is always derived from the plain (pshat) reading. R' Alshich's quotes are Drash. Ergo Brown (and D&N and many other Chrstians who quote one section out of context) either don't understand PaRDeS or simply choose to lie to their readers and lead them to believe that what is pshat (plain meaning) is really drash (midrashic).

The Pusey book never gives original sources, so it is hard to track down these quotes. In the case of R Moshe Alshich it comes from a very obscure work called Marot HaTsobeot" (Collected Visions), on the prophets and their prophecies. Marot HaTsobeot is an exegetical and mystical commentary. That is, by definition it isn't what the passage means in any ordinary sense. So once again we are dealing with Midrash Aggadah allegory. It is NOT meant to be taken at face value. It is homily -- not a literal interpreation.

But even so the Pusey version is self serving and not true to the original at all. For example, the Pusey has R Moshe Alshich saying what Brown quoted him as saying:

Quote: our rabbis with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet is speaking of the King Messiah and we shall ourselves also adhere to the same view

That is not what R Moshe Alshich says. He doesn't say doesn't say "our Rabbis of blessed memory". R Moshe Alshich uses a common abbreviation: R"ZL. The usual assumption would be that that's what it means, but the abbreviation also stands for *my* Rabbis of blessed memory.

R' Moshe was a mystic and using aggudah (homily) he was writing about the highly mystical homilies used by other mystics like himself.

Using allegory R Moshe equates the Messiah with King David (who was a messiah). He then writes about different worlds populated by angels.

He, R' Moshe was a mystic, writing in the center of Jewish mysticism, is transmitting a mystical interpretation of the text.

In other words this is not pshat (plain meaning).

It is not intended to be taken literally by anyone. It is simply homily and R Moshe says that HIS rabbis envision it (homiletically).

This makes the passage of my Rabbis of blessed memory" logical. He is explaining where his homily stems from. He is NOT saying "all the Rabbis who ever lived" as the Chrstians infer.

Pusey and his translators may not have understood Jewish mysticism or they may simply have ignored context because they were trying to prove that Jews speak of the servant in Isaiah as the messiah. Their error (or they ignored it) was in misusing and mistranslating a common abbreviation: R"ZL.

He states that the servant is Israel and then using Midrash (allegory) first says king messiah IS king David not Jsus or some other messiah, and BTW David was a messiah, an anointed king of Israel). Then R Moshe Alshich compares the servant to MOSES. Folks: this is midrash! Allegory!!! Midrashim were written in an allegorical style that was NEVER meant to be taken literally.

So R Moshe Alshich never meant for any of this to be taken literally, but using Kabbalist reasoning meant it to be viewed as allegory.

This particular part of the midrash explains that the messiah of whom R Moshe Alshich speaks is King David himself (who was a messiah):

Quote: The Messiah is of course David, who, as is well known, was "anointed", and there is a verse in which the prophet, speaking in the name of HaShem, says expressly, "My servant David shall be king over them" (Ezekiel 37:24). The ex-pression My servant, therefore, can justly be referred to David

He then goes on to say the following:

Quote: The Almighty, however, says that there is no need for surprise at their attitude of incredulity in the presence of these marvels [of the restoration of Israel], for who believed our report--the report, namely, which we made known to you from heaven, but which the kings had not heard of? So fearful was it, that in the eyes of everyone who did hear it [of the restoration of Israel], it was too wondrous to behold. . .

He even references Moses in relation to Isaiah 53

Quote: And he made his grave with the wicked. I will show you an instance of this in the chief of all the prophets [Moses], who, by still suffering after his death, endured a heavier penalty than others who had suffered for their generation. Moses was buried away from the Promised Land

He goes on at length relating Isaiah to Moses. In other words: to try and say the interpretation of el-Sheikh is that Isaiah is speaking of the messiah and only the messiah is untrue and simplistic -- and in the case of Chrstian missionaries deceptive.

Originally Posted by Xcaliber

Do Donkey's Talk?...

You do. At least you try.

Originally Posted by trebor

You posted this nonsense before, and it was busted.

Wrong. You didn't bust anything. You're the one who always takes it right in the shorts with your lies, out of context quotes, and misinformation.

Originally Posted by trebor

http://halakhah.com/pdf/nezikin/Sanhedrin.pdf

The link I presented on the Rabbi had:

The Messiah -- what is his name? . . . The Rabbis say, the leprous one; those of the house of Rabbi say, the sick one, as it is said, "Surely he hath borne our sicknesses." (Sanhedrin 98b)


The link you provided with Sanhedrin 98 has:

The Rabbis said: His (the Messiah's) name is ‘the leper scholar,’ as it is written, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Both reference words from Isaiah 53.

And you are busted with your own website!

Originally Posted by Easyrider

The link I presented on the Rabbi had:

The Messiah -- what is his name? . . . The Rabbis say, the leprous one; those of the house of Rabbi say, the sick one, as it is said, "Surely he hath borne our sicknesses." (Sanhedrin 98b)


The link you provided with Sanhedrin 98 has:

The Rabbis said: His (the Messiah's) name is ‘the leper scholar,’ as it is written, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Both reference words from Isaiah 53.

And you are busted with your own website!

Nah..The thing is.. YOU ARE NOT READING IN CONTEXT. It also says that Hillel thought that Heizekah was the messiah. .. and someone else said that the time fo a messiah has come and gone, and there won't be any. So..

THere is a technique known as 'Quote mining'.. used by dishonest people, XXXXXX and XXXXXX. That is what you are doing.

Originally Posted by trebor

Nah..The thing is.. YOU ARE NOT READING IN CONTEXT. It also says that Hillel thought that Heizekah was the messiah.

We're not talking about your Hezekiah rabbi (who's full of horse manure, by the way, since many stiff-necked Jews are still expecting their Messiah), we're talking about the other rabbi IN YOUR OWN LINK who referenced Isaiah 53 as being the Messiah.

So quit trying to weasel your way out of it.

Rabbi Moses Alschech(1508-1600) says:
"Our Rabbis with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet is speaking of the Messiah, and we shall ourselves also adhere to the same view."

You're busted, pure and simple.

Originally Posted by Easyrider

You do. At least you try.

Typical, still can't defend your book of fairy tales I see....

Originally Posted by Easyrider

We're not talking about your Hezekiah rabbi (who's full of horse manure, by the way, since many stiff-necked Jews are still expecting their Messiah), we're talking about the other rabbi IN YOUR OWN LINK who referenced Isaiah 53 as being the Messiah.

So quit trying to weasel your way out of it.

Rabbi Moses Alschech(1508-1600) says:
"Our Rabbis with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet is speaking of the Messiah, and we shall ourselves also adhere to the same view."

You're busted, pure and simple.

Moshe Alshich lived from 1508-1593.

But Alshich lived 500 years after Rashi supposedly changed the Jewish concept of the servant from the messiah to Israel. How does Brown explain this major time discrepancy? He doesn't. Brown is notorious for throwing out references and quotes with abandon hoping that there is so much mud thrown up that no one will bother to check each one of his facts -- or if they did the reader / listener would get so bored they'd tune out the truth.

Now if Rashi CHANGED the servant from the messiah to Israel 500 years before R' Ashlich then why would any Jew state as a fact that the servant is the mesiah? Does this make any sense? Did Alshich not know the Jews had conspired to changed the interpretation (per Chrstians like Brown)?

So already you can see this doesn't make sense. The literal meaning of the servant in Isaiah is Israel. Using homily the servant has been applied to many different people -- including Moses, Abraham and others.

Have you ever heard of PaRDeS? Torah is understood on many levels, PaRDeS.

* P'shat (פְּשָׁט) - the "plain" ("simple") meaning of a passage
a
* Remez (רֶמֶז) - "hints" implied in the text but not explicit

* Drash (דְּרַשׁ) - which is a deeper or even midrashic meaning -- often inferred from other scripture
e
* Sod (סוֹד) - "secret" ("mystery") meanings

These four levels (PaRDeS) are all valid, but the meaning of a passage is always derived from the plain (pshat) reading. R' Alshich's quotes are Drash. Ergo Brown (and D&N and many other Chrstians who quote one section out of context) either don't understand PaRDeS or simply choose to lie to their readers and lead them to believe that what is pshat (plain meaning) is really drash (midrashic).

The Pusey book never gives original sources, so it is hard to track down these quotes. In the case of R Moshe Alshich it comes from a very obscure work called Marot HaTsobeot" (Collected Visions), on the prophets and their prophecies. Marot HaTsobeot is an exegetical and mystical commentary. That is, by definition it isn't what the passage means in any ordinary sense. So once again we are dealing with Midrash Aggadah allegory. It is NOT meant to be taken at face value. It is homily -- not a literal interpreation.

But even so the Pusey version is self serving and not true to the original at all. For example, the Pusey has R Moshe Alshich saying what Brown quoted him as saying:

Quote: our rabbis with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet is speaking of the King Messiah and we shall ourselves also adhere to the same view

That is not what R Moshe Alshich says. He doesn't say doesn't say "our Rabbis of blessed memory". R Moshe Alshich uses a common abbreviation: R"ZL. The usual assumption would be that that's what it means, but the abbreviation also stands for *my* Rabbis of blessed memory.

R' Moshe was a mystic and using aggudah (homily) he was writing about the highly mystical homilies used by other mystics like himself.

Using allegory R Moshe equates the Messiah with King David (who was a messiah). He then writes about different worlds populated by angels.

He, R' Moshe was a mystic, writing in the center of Jewish mysticism, is transmitting a mystical interpretation of the text.

In other words this is not pshat (plain meaning).

It is not intended to be taken literally by anyone. It is simply homily and R Moshe says that HIS rabbis envision it (homiletically).

This makes the passage of my Rabbis of blessed memory" logical. He is explaining where his homily stems from. He is NOT saying "all the Rabbis who ever lived" as the Chrstians infer.

Pusey and his translators may not have understood Jewish mysticism or they may simply have ignored context because they were trying to prove that Jews speak of the servant in Isaiah as the messiah. Their error (or they ignored it) was in misusing and mistranslating a common abbreviation: R"ZL.

He states that the servant is Israel and then using Midrash (allegory) first says king messiah IS king David not Jsus or some other messiah, and BTW David was a messiah, an anointed king of Israel). Then R Moshe Alshich compares the servant to MOSES. Folks: this is midrash! Allegory!!! Midrashim were written in an allegorical style that was NEVER meant to be taken literally.

So R Moshe Alshich never meant for any of this to be taken literally, but using Kabbalist reasoning meant it to be viewed as allegory.

This particular part of the midrash explains that the messiah of whom R Moshe Alshich speaks is King David himself (who was a messiah):

Quote: The Messiah is of course David, who, as is well known, was "anointed", and there is a verse in which the prophet, speaking in the name of HaShem, says expressly, "My servant David shall be king over them" (Ezekiel 37:24). The ex-pression My servant, therefore, can justly be referred to David

He then goes on to say the following:

Quote: The Almighty, however, says that there is no need for surprise at their attitude of incredulity in the presence of these marvels [of the restoration of Israel], for who believed our report--the report, namely, which we made known to you from heaven, but which the kings had not heard of? So fearful was it, that in the eyes of everyone who did hear it [of the restoration of Israel], it was too wondrous to behold. . .

He even references Moses in relation to Isaiah 53

Quote: And he made his grave with the wicked. I will show you an instance of this in the chief of all the prophets [Moses], who, by still suffering after his death, endured a heavier penalty than others who had suffered for their generation. Moses was buried away from the Promised Land

He goes on at length relating Isaiah to Moses. In other words: to try and say the interpretation of el-Sheikh is that Isaiah is speaking of the messiah and only the messiah is untrue and simplistic -- and in the case of Chrstian missionaries deceptive.

Originally Posted by trebor

Moshe Alshich lived from 1508-1593.

But Alshich lived 500 years after Rashi supposedly changed the Jewish concept of the servant from the messiah to Israel...

Well, as it turns out, Jesus Christ is the Messiah. He came at the time the Messiah was predicted to come, did the initial things the Messiah was supposed to do (including miracles and atoning for sin), and will come again to complete the remainder of the Messianic prophecies. Millions of Jews (now called Messianic Jews) around the world now realize this.

From John chapter 4:

9 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”


p.s. The wise rabbis understood the Messiah would be God.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 - The Messiah as God

Jesus is Lord!

Originally Posted by Easyrider

Well, as it turns out, Jesus Christ is the Messiah. He came at the time the Messiah was predicted to come, did the initial things the Messiah was supposed to do (including miracles and atoning for sin), and will come again to complete the remainder of the Messianic prophecies. Millions of Jews (now called Messianic Jews) around the world now realize this.

From John chapter 4:

9 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”


p.s. The wise rabbis understood the Messiah would be God.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 - The Messiah as God

Jesus is Lord!

Well, yoiu know.. what this 'new testament' book means' nothing about what the Jewish scriptures say and mean... and that page totally takes things out of context.

The passage states that the Messiah would be of the branch of David... mainly a direct male descendant, with an unbroken male line from David. As for his name being 'the lord is our righteousness', it was common , and still is , for Jewish names to have attributes of God in it. For example, both Isaiah and Joshua mean 'God is our salvation', and Hezekiah' means 'Mighty God'....

Heck, my Jewish name refers to God.. does that mean I am god too??


You Christian missionary types are SO obsessed with trying to redefine what the Jews believed way back when that you lie so much and get so busted all the time... yet you cling to your pitiful beliefs. Your faith must not be very strong to try to force your way of thinking onto another religion.

Originally Posted by Easyrider

Everyone has eternal life. But the unbelieving Christ-deniers will spend theirs in Hell, according to the Scriptures. It is a fearful thing that awaits them.

“I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." - John 8:24

“Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” - John 14:6

“But unless you repent, you too will all perish.” - Luke 13:3

WHAT JESUS CHRIST SAYS ABOUT HELL! "fire" Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41 "everlasting fire" Matt 18:8, 25:41 "eternal damnation" Mark 3:29 "hell fire" Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47 "damnation" Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47 "damnation of hell" Matt 23:33 "resurrection of damnation" John 5:29 "furnace of fire" Matt 13:42, 50 "the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43, 45 "the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44, 46, 48 "Where their worm does not die" Mark 9:44, 46, 48 "wailing and gnashing of teeth" Matt 13:42, 50 "weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30 "torments" Luke 16:23 "tormented in this flame" Luke 16:24 "place of torment" Luke 16:28 "outer darkness" Matt 8:12, 22:13 "everlasting punishment" Matt 25:46

Jesus Christ gave a solemn warning in Matthew 7:21-23:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. . . MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Watch "23 Minutes in Hell" Video - Bill Wiese

23 Minutes in HELL, by Bill Wiese, he explains the torments of what Hell is like



Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God - A Great Awakening Revival Sermon

Select Sermons | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Repent! Today is still a day of salvation.

Confronting Bible Abuse, Part 2: Beginning Again with God by Micah Royal

Originally Posted by trebor

Well, yoiu know.. what this 'new testament' book means' nothing about what the Jewish scriptures say and mean... and that page totally takes things out of context.

<Flush>

You need a lot of help with your theology, Trebor. You screw up everything you look at.

Originally Posted by poet

Confronting Bible Abuse, Part 2: Beginning Again with God by Micah Royal

From your link:

"Scripture assures that, though some may claim otherwise for God, God does not judge by externals like outward appearance, sexuality, and gender, but by who we are in our heart of hearts (1 Samuel 16:7)."

(end of quote)

So, God is okay with pedophiles, Sodomites, and adulterers?

Sure, God would like to save everyone and deliver them from their sinful lifestyles. But first, you need to do what Jesus commanded:

"I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." - Luke 13:3

Beware of those who seek to legitimize ungodly lifestyles!

Originally Posted by Easyrider

From your link:

"Scripture assures that, though some may claim otherwise for God, God does not judge by externals like outward appearance, sexuality, and gender, but by who we are in our heart of hearts (1 Samuel 16:7)."

(end of quote)

So, God is okay with pedophiles, Sodomites, and adulterers?

Sure, God would like to save everyone and deliver them from their sinful lifestyles. But first, you need to do what Jesus commanded:

"I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." - Luke 13:3

Beware of those who seek to legitimize ungodly lifestyles!

Pardon me, but where, in the highlighted "red" text, indicative of the words spoken by Jesus, does he address homosexuality or gay marriage?
Like I believe you aren't guilty of fornication and a host of other sins, you'd rather not mention. Hypocrite.