Religious Tolerance: After seeing your narrow-minded dissmisal of religion, I wrote a big old ignorant rant about how atheism is evil. I have decided not to post it, because I don't want to say what needs to ...
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After seeing your narrow-minded dissmisal of religion, I wrote a big old ignorant rant about how atheism is evil. I have decided not to post it, because I don't want to say what needs to be said in that manner. Anyone who wants to think about their belief that religion is bad/illogical/stupid, atheism is good/rational, Please read at least the first of these articles.
http://www.boundless.org/2000/depart.../a0000223.html
http://www.boundless.org/2001/regula.../a0000541.html
http://www.boundless.org/2001/regula.../a0000528.html
http://www.boundless.org/2001/depart.../a0000588.html
http://www.boundless.org/1999/features/a0000097.html
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Originally Posted by
Robbie
Char has a singular minded concept of God and his must be right. That is why he can declare that God and religion are the most intolerant.
Christians have certainly had their bouts of intolerance. But christians have also had some of the most selfless tolerance. These would include Mother Theresa, the Red Cross, The Salvation Army, and Hospice.
Char: You do present as narrow minded, accepting only your concept of God and dismissing evidence that is obvious.
epaphras_faith
He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose. (Jim Elliot)
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Originally Posted by
epaphras_faith
Char has a singular minded concept of God and his must be right. That is why he can declare that God and religion are the most intolerant.
Christians have certainly had their bouts of intolerance. But christians have also had some of the most selfless tolerance. These would include Mother Theresa, the Red Cross, The Salvation Army, and Hospice.
Char: You do present as narrow minded, accepting only your concept of God and dismissing evidence that is obvious.
Looking at all of history one can see that religion has done far more real harm than atheism ever has. More than enough to outweight any good. When I speak of religion I didn't just mean Christianity, but all religions. Yours is an arrogant attitude that yours is the only true religion.
Most Christians do this sort of thing not because it is the right thing to do, but it is expected of them from their god.
BTW, I'm not an atheist. I'm an agnostic. Don't argue the person, argue the topic. To do otherwise shows that you have nothing.
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Robbie
After seeing your narrow-minded dissmisal of religion, I wrote a big old ignorant rant about how atheism is evil. I have decided not to post it, because I don't want to say what needs to be said in that manner. Anyone who wants to think about their belief that religion is bad/illogical/stupid, atheism is good/rational, Please read at least the first of these articles.
Irrelevant. Atheism is not a belief system in the same sense as Christianity, Islam, or Judaism are. What one atheist does in regards to all other atheists is irrelevant since atheism is not a cohesive belief system like C/I, or J. It is totally difference in regards to theists. Plus, on a per capita basis religion has been responsible for the deaths of entire peoples and cultures.
All that an atheist may have in common with another atheist is that they either don't believe in the existence of god, or believe that god doesn't exist.
Finally, most of the examples given as proof against atheism are still influenced by religion. Hitler was a Christian who killed the Jews in god's name. Lenin had a brother who was to be hung for theft and Lenin had asked the Church to pardon him, but they refused and let him be hung. Stalin was a seminary student. As for Far Eastern countries. Many of their religions are actually non-theistic to begin with so you really can't say that their leaders were atheists.
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Originally Posted by
Charchuk
Looking at all of history one can see that religion has done far more real harm than atheism ever has. More than enough to outweight any good. When I speak of religion I didn't just mean Christianity, but all religions. Yours is an arrogant attitude that yours is the only true religion.
Most Christians do this sort of thing not because it is the right thing to do, but it is expected of them from their god.
BTW, I'm not an atheist. I'm an agnostic. Don't argue the person, argue the topic. To do otherwise shows that you have nothing.
Your lack of knowledge of theology is excusable but you should not use it to argue your point.
Your statement is that it is obvious that religion has caused more harm than good. Please back that up with some statistics. Have you not seen the statistics from the US department of health that shows that people that are religious lead happier and healthier lives?
What good has atheism done? I did not say mine was the only true religion only that it has produced some very very good things. You make a counter claim but provide no evidence. I am arguing the topic and pointing out your issues as logical weaknesses in your argument. You are the one who uses phrases to insult.
epaphras_faith
He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose. (Jim Elliot)
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Originally Posted by
Charchuk
Looking at all of history one can see that religion has done far more real harm than atheism ever has. More than enough to outweight any good. When I speak of religion I didn't just mean Christianity, but all religions. Yours is an arrogant attitude that yours is the only true religion.
Most Christians do this sort of thing not because it is the right thing to do, but it is expected of them from their god.
BTW, I'm not an atheist. I'm an agnostic. Don't argue the person, argue the topic. To do otherwise shows that you have nothing.
Religions aren't all the same. I don't want to deny that some Christians did horrible things. I do want to deny that Christians have done worse than atheists.
So, Christians are arrogant and narrow-minded because we believe a particular religion is right. Do you believe all religions are wrong in their belief about God?
Let's say 3 people imagined what my car looks like. Am I arrogant to beleive that my car is actually an old boat, when the 3 people imagined it was different? I don't mean to imply that I know/own the truth about God. What I'm saying is that there are not 4 different beliefs about my car, and all of them are right. There are 4 different beleifs about my car and one of them is right. Hinduism says there are millions of Gods. Atheism says there is no God. Christianity says there is one. They can't all be right.
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Originally Posted by
Charchuk
Finally, most of the examples given as proof against atheism are still influenced by religion. Hitler was a Christian who killed the Jews in god's name. Lenin had a brother who was to be hung for theft and Lenin had asked the Church to pardon him, but they refused and let him be hung. Stalin was a seminary student. As for Far Eastern countries. Many of their religions are actually non-theistic to begin with so you really can't say that their leaders were atheists.
http://www.boundless.org/2001/regul...n/a0000541.html
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Originally Posted by
epaphras_faith
Your lack of knowledge of theology is excusable but you should not use it to argue your point.
Your statement is that it is obvious that religion has caused more harm than good. Please back that up with some statistics. Have you not seen the statistics from the US department of health that shows that people that are religious lead happier and healthier lives?
What good has atheism done? I did not say mine was the only true religion only that it has produced some very very good things. You make a counter claim but provide no evidence. I am arguing the topic and pointing out your issues as logical weaknesses in your argument. You are the one who uses phrases to insult.
Irrelevant. One just has to study all of history to see the truth of the matter. You conveniently forget Christianity's own bloody history as well.
Who gathers these statistics and how? Do they ask everyone if they believe in god or not and isn't illegal now to ask someone that question? Plus, you speak of only one limited sample of one country out of billions of peopleon the entire planet.
Health in general is higher than it has been during any period in history.
Like I had said, I speak of all religion. You are just using a too small a sample in comparison.
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Originally Posted by
Robbie
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Originally Posted by
Robbie
Religions aren't all the same. I don't want to deny that some Christians did horrible things. I do want to deny that Christians have done worse than atheists.
On a per capita basis theists have done far worse. Just look to Central and South American as a good example of this.
So, Christians are arrogant and narrow-minded because we believe a particular religion is right. Do you believe all religions are wrong in their belief about God?
The problem isn't that they belief such, the problem is when they try to force it on others and they don't see this as something evil when they make others believe as you do wheither they want to or not.
Let's say 3 people imagined what my car looks like. Am I arrogant to beleive that my car is actually an old boat, when the 3 people imagined it was different? I don't mean to imply that I know/own the truth about God. What I'm saying is that there are not 4 different beliefs about my car, and all of them are right. There are 4 different beleifs about my car and one of them is right. Hinduism says there are millions of Gods. Atheism says there is no God. Christianity says there is one. They can't all be right.
Apples and oranges.
I only have to respect your right to believe what you want, not the belief itself.
Also, as I had said elsewhere, I'm an agnostic. I think that theists and atheists are both wrong since they can't prove it either way.
I neither believe in the existence of a god nor do I disbelieve. I'm neutral. I always ask either side to provide credible, verifible, or unbiased evidence to prove their belief. So, trying such tactics as the above with word games and "logic" puzzels without any actual evidence mean nothing to me. The burden of proof belongs on both of you, not me.
On the question of wheither there is an actual creator of the universe or not I just say I don't know, but when it comes to religions about such all I've ever seen is a case of creating god in their own image. Christianity is no different. The lyrics maybe be different, but the melody is the same.
Last edited by Charchuk; 11-05-2003 at 12:10 PM.
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Originally Posted by
Charchuk
Irrelevant. One just has to study all of history to see the truth of the matter. You conveniently forget Christianity's own bloody history as well.
Who gathers these statistics and how? Do they ask everyone if they believe in god or not and isn't illegal now to ask someone that question? Plus, you speak of only one limited sample of one country out of billions of peopleon the entire planet.
Health in general is higher than it has been during any period in history.
Like I had said, I speak of all religion. You are just using a too small a sample in comparison.
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh.............The good ole, one just has to look to see argument.
I will get you the specific studies. I do not forget the bloody history of christianity. That however does not deny the good that it has the potential to do. Do not blame God for what people do.
The department of health services does surveys on people and their health and what they believe. The correlation (and yes I admit that it is a correlation) controls for factors such as increased health as it is a comparison across current populations rather than a historical look. It also notes that people with a religious belief have fewer stress related illnesses. They respond more positively to crises and they are generally more productive in the work force.
As I said, I will get specific statistics and studies and post them.
Now, your turn, since all you are doing is arguing that my information is wrong, I would like you to back up your statements with evidence that shows that religions are actually the cause and that they do more harm than good. This should not be difficult since you say all one has to do is look. The studies and results should be plethora and google.
As for my comment about your theology, you state that God is a certain way and that he was made up and that people only do good in fear of him. This is a theological statement and has no basis in actual theology. You use no authority other than your own weak deductions with zero evidence. Back it up!
epaphras_faith
He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose. (Jim Elliot)
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Let me summarize the arguements
A) Theistic beleifs cause death/suffering more than Athestic ones. Also, Christianity has a bloody history- (I assume) as compared to Atheistic belief. I'm not sure if you are arguing against Theistic beleif in general, or Christianity. I wouldn't say that Theistic beleifs(excluding Christianity) have a defendable track record, so here, we agree. I am willing to argue for Christianity.
B) Christians are arrogant/narrow minded because they want to 'force their beleifs on others'. I will be argueing this point as well.
C) Hitler and Stalin were Christians. China's communism was based on agnosticism rather that atheism. I have/will argue this as well.
If there are any others anyone wants to add to this, feel free to point them out.
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Originally Posted by
epaphras_faith
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh.............The good ole, one just has to look to see argument.
I will get you the specific studies. I do not forget the bloody history of christianity. That however does not deny the good that it has the potential to do. Do not blame God for what people do.
That is almost as bad as saying, "But they were not real Christians".
The department of health services does surveys on people and their health and what they believe. The correlation (and yes I admit that it is a correlation) controls for factors such as increased health as it is a comparison across current populations rather than a historical look. It also notes that people with a religious belief have fewer stress related illnesses. They respond more positively to crises and they are generally more productive in the work force.
Is that across all theists, or just Christians?
As I said, I will get specific statistics and studies and post them.
http://my.execpc.com/~helberg/pitfalls/
And here is a book you should have a look at.
http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/inv.cgi...domain_id=1856
What I am saying is that yes, I bet that you could provide all of these things which show that you're right, but I could do the same as well and say the opposite. These things are only as reliable as those taking them and their motives.
As for my comment about your theology,
What theology of mine?
you state that God is a certain way and that he was made up and that people only do good in fear of him.
Most theistic morality is based on fear of being sent to hell. Whereas atheists, and agnostics, based their morality on reason. That it is in our best interests for survival to be "nice to each other".
Many theists believe that if they accept their god(s) rule that they will be rewarded with some kind of afterlife so this life is only a preparation for the next one. With atheists and agnostics this life is the only one they have and thus they have to "make it count".
This is a theological statement and has no basis in actual theology. You use no authority other than your own weak deductions with zero evidence. Back it up!
Please, your tactics are so paper thin that they hide nothing. Don't argue the issue, but argue the person. I'm only going from the example of history.
Last edited by Charchuk; 11-05-2003 at 02:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by
Robbie
Let me summarize the arguements
A) Theistic beleifs cause death/suffering more than Athestic ones. Also, Christianity has a bloody history- (I assume) as compared to Atheistic belief. I'm not sure if you are arguing against Theistic beleif in general, or Christianity. I wouldn't say that Theistic beleifs(excluding Christianity) have a defendable track record, so here, we agree. I am willing to argue for Christianity.
Atheistic beliefs cause nothing since there are none common to all atheists except for the belief that there is no god. Are you trying to say that all of those who believe in reason and science are atheists? That theists can't be scientists or rational?
I speak of all forms of theism.
Christians are arrogant/narrow minded because they want to 'force their beleifs on others'. I will be argueing this point as well.
The problem is that they believe that they are doing their god's will. I.E. Judge Moore, Pat Robertson, Ann Coultier, etc, etc...
C) Hitler and Stalin were Christians. China's communism was based on agnosticism rather that atheism. I have/will argue this as well.
Where did I say that China's communism was based on agnosticism? They are non-theistic. They persecute Buddhists just as much as Christians, or any belief system which questions their rule. They don't go after you JUST because you may believe in a god. You're just showning your martyr complex. Plus, what is used in China is Maoism rather than actually communism. And communism isn't based on any such thing as belief or non-belief in any god.
Communism is an economic system like Capitalism is. Canada is basically a socialistic country yet we have theists as wel as atheists.
Your tactic is still quite transparent, and proves nothing.
Last edited by Charchuk; 11-05-2003 at 02:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by
Charchuk
You're just showning your martyr complex. ...Your tactic is still quite transparent, and proves nothing.
What the heck is a martyr complex? I didn't know I had 'tactics'! I thought I was summarizing the arguements as I interpreted them, so it would be less confusing to continue the debate. If you don't agree with my interpretation then give your own. I wan't even trying to prove anything!!!!!!
I'll argue the points when I have time.
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