Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Gulf of Tonkin Conspiracy?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Minnesota--10,000 lakes
    Posts
    2,013

    Gulf of Tonkin Conspiracy?

    A historian in the NSA (National Security Agency) concluded that information obtained in the Gulf of Tonkin incident of August 1964 was deliberately falsified to make it appear North Vietnamese gunboats attacked an American destroyer patrolling in international waters.

    It has been widely assumed the attack was a mistaken cause of phantom radar blips, worsened by an edgy crew who were aware of a legitimate attack two days previous on another American ship. Most people have assumed it was an honest mistake. The historian, however, has determined that two mid-level employees deliberately manipulated intelligence information to make it appear as though the attack actually occurred.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NG99FGN521.DTL

    The Gulf of Tonkin incident gave President Lyndon Johnson the green light to escalate the war. Ten years later the quagmire was still raging on.

    The historian’s conclusions have been known for about four years, but government officials were reluctant to release the information, fearing parallels would be drawn to the coming Iraq war.

    Question: Does the culpability end with the mid-level employees, or is there a wider conspiracy? Was Johnson itching for this war? He has been quoted as saying he “knows where to look for power, where to find it, and how to use it.”
    - Which is worse--ignorance or apathy? For my part, I don't know and I don't care. -

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    2,558
    I'm not saying I'm sure that JBJ was invloved in making something like that happen, but I sure as heck wouldn't be surprised if he had.
    Truth gains more even by the errors of one who, with due study and preparation, thinks for himself, than by the true opinions of those who only hold them because they do not suffer themselves to think.
    -John Stuart Mill

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Sydney, Oz
    Posts
    3,253
    The Gulf of Tonkin incident was certainly staged, it was as much as admitted in the Northwoods document by the joint chiefs of staff, where faking a Cuban attack on American troops/interests is described as "creating a "Gulf of Tonkin" incident. I don't know who exactly would have decided for it to go ahead, it seems to me unlikely that mid-level employees would orchestrate such a thing.
    He or she who supports a State organized in a military way – whether directly or indirectly – participates in sin. Each man takes part in the sin by contributing to the maintenance of the State by paying taxes.

    ~ Gandhi

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Lincoln : England
    Posts
    1,876
    Although in his national television address, LBJ described the attacks on two American destroyers as "unprovoked", isn't it true that the ships had in fact been monitoring South Vietnamese raids against two North Vietnamese islands, and these raids had been planned by US military advisors ?

    Perhaps the Tonkin incident is best described as a snare deliberately set by American agents provocateurs.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    7,012
    Quote Originally Posted by billsco

    The historian’s conclusions have been known for about four years, but government officials were reluctant to release the information, fearing parallels would be drawn to the coming Iraq war.

    Question: Does the culpability end with the mid-level employees, or is there a wider conspiracy? Was Johnson itching for this war? He has been quoted as saying he “knows where to look for power, where to find it, and how to use it.”
    Nothing happens in our government without approval, formal or otherwise, from the top. We have a bureaucratic system, including the military, where CYA is the primary belief system.
    These are my principles. If you don't like them I have others. ~Groucho Marx~

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    1

    A wholly different take

    Having been aboard USS Turner Joy the night of 4 August 1964, I have a wholly different take on the "no-attack" interpretation propounded by the two "authoritative" accounts of the Tonkin Gulf Incident, Edwin Moise's book and NSA historian Robert J. Hanyok's declassified-in-2005 Cryptologic Quarterly article. I've critiqued both (and then-Commander James Stockdale's memoir) at http: // jimtranr . com / Whats_Wrong_with_Tonkin_Gulf_Incident_History . html.

    [Ignore the spaces in the URL. As a first-time poster, I can't post a direct link.]

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Chinatown, NYC
    Posts
    18

    no conspiracy

    unfortunately, there is no conspiracy. It is now a fact.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    660
    Quote Originally Posted by billsco View Post
    A historian in the NSA (National Security Agency) concluded that information obtained in the Gulf of Tonkin incident of August 1964 was deliberately falsified to make it appear North Vietnamese gunboats attacked an American destroyer patrolling in international waters.

    It has been widely assumed the attack was a mistaken cause of phantom radar blips, worsened by an edgy crew who were aware of a legitimate attack two days previous on another American ship. Most people have assumed it was an honest mistake. The historian, however, has determined that two mid-level employees deliberately manipulated intelligence information to make it appear as though the attack actually occurred.

    Tonkin Gulf reports cooked? / Historian's research finds intelligence errors covered up

    The Gulf of Tonkin incident gave President Lyndon Johnson the green light to escalate the war. Ten years later the quagmire was still raging on.

    The historian’s conclusions have been known for about four years, but government officials were reluctant to release the information, fearing parallels would be drawn to the coming Iraq war.

    Question: Does the culpability end with the mid-level employees, or is there a wider conspiracy? Was Johnson itching for this war? He has been quoted as saying he “knows where to look for power, where to find it, and how to use it.”
    The Gulf of Tonkin incident was pretty much a set up. There had been so many US attacks by then, not just in Laos but North Viet Nam, that the administration was just waiting for anything to come along that would provide an excuse for the invasion.

    An old friend was a boson’s mate on the carrier Coral Sea; CV-43 and launched many F-14s in the named air strikes of August 1964.

    AllPolitics - Back in TIME for June 28, 1971

    By early 1964, the U.S. was supporting and directing a number of covert operations: air strikes over Laos by CIA-hired civilian pilots and by Thai flyers, South Vietnamese harassment raids (Operation 34A) along the North Vietnam coast, and U-2 reconnaissance flights over the North. Announced U.S. retaliatory air strikes against the North started in August 1964.

    CONCEALMENT AT TONKIN. The North Vietnamese PT-boat attacks on the U.S. destroyer Maddox in the Gulf of Tonkin in August 1964 were among the most pivotal and controversial events of the war -- and the Johnson Administration clearly deceived the public about them. U.S. officials claimed to be unaware that South Vietnamese naval units had been covertly operating in the area shortly before the Maddox was fired upon. McNamara was asked at a press conference on Aug. 5, 1964: "Have there been any incidents that you know of involving the South Vietnamese vessels and the North Vietnamese?" His reply: "No, none that I know of." Yet the secret Pentagon study declares that "at midnight on July 30, South Vietnamese naval commandos under General Westmoreland's command staged an amphibious raid on the North Vietnamese islands of Hon Me and Hon Ngu in the Gulf of Tonkin. Apparently [the North Vietnamese boats that attacked the Maddox] had mistaken Maddox for a South Vietnamese escort vessel." The rapidity of U.S. air reprisals -- within twelve hours of Washington's receipt of the news -- argued that the U.S. had been positioned to strike as soon as attacked.
    The entire war was a conspiracy actually, to get back the money we lent to France which was forfeit at Dien Bien Phu in 1954. The sad part is that Ho came to US first after WWII, but we had the Marshall Plan going on, so we referred to the French . . .
    He Lived in the Perfect Midfield Time

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    85
    I'm not sure if LBJ knew about it, but I am fairly sure that the CIA was behind the Gulf incident and the JFK assaination. Not to mention the Iraq war.

    Truman stated that creating the CIA was the worse mistake he ever made.
    "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security." - Ben Franklin
    “If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy” - James Madison
    "Those who believe absurdities can be made to commit atrocities" - Voltaire
    "What if the people wake up?" - Ron Paul

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    660
    Quote Originally Posted by USAMP1980 View Post
    I'm not sure if LBJ knew about it, but I am fairly sure that the CIA was behind the Gulf incident and the JFK assaination. Not to mention the Iraq war.

    Truman stated that creating the CIA was the worse mistake he ever made.
    LBJ knew exactly what was going on - all the time. JFK had actually begun the "training" during his administration, so by the time LBJ got the desk, the wheels were already in motion. I am thoughful of how it would have gone had not JFK been assinated. I don't think we'd have committed 500,000 troops to it.
    He Lived in the Perfect Midfield Time

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •