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Thread: Christian Nation Quiz

  1. #1
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    Christian Nation Quiz

    It seems to me that if the founding fathers of this country were very bright, and I think they were, then their intentions to form a "Christian Nation" would be clearly evident in our founding documents. I mean, aside from their private writings where no indication of such intent can be found, wouldn't such intent be clear in the very documents that declared and established this country?

    To that end, I have examined some of the early documents, written by these founding fathers, upon which this nation was founded. First, there is the Declaration of Independence. While the view of the founding fathers was that the Declaration did not found a new nation, but rather returned the power to govern to the source, i.e., the people, this document is often cited as evidence of a “Christian Nation” by advocates of a repressive theocracy. The Declaration of Independence left the 13 Colonies without a legislative body and without law. As the founding fathers expressed at the time, the people were returned to the state of nature.

    Second, I have examined the eleven constitutions, written concurrently with or immediately after the Declaration in 1776 and 1777, which reestablished governments in ten of the newly independent states, and also established the independent Republic of New Connecticut (now known as Vermont) from the disputed territories that were claimed by Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and New York. Three colonies (Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Connecticut) didn't draft and adopt constitutions until later and instead reverted to a previous charter.

    Third, I examined the Articles of Confederation, the initial founding document of The United States of America, The Constitution itself, and the Bill of Rights.

    So here are some questions about these documents. Keep in mind that the intent of the founding fathers to form a “Christian Nation” should be quite clear in these documents, if that were their intent.

    1. The Declaration shows the intention to form a “Christian Nation” in that it mentions Jesus Christ how many times? a. zero, b. one, c. three, d. five.

    Of course, everyone knows the answer. This initial document of the United States mentions Jesus zero times. A bit peculiar upon the founding of a “Christian Nation,” don’t you think?

    2. The Declaration shows the intention to form a “Christian Nation” in that it mentions God how many times? a. zero, b. one, c. three, d. five.

    I’m sure you all got this right too. God is mentioned one time. Sadly for the “Christian Nation” crowd, “Nature and Nature’s God” is an expression typical of deism, written by Thomas Jefferson, an undisputed deist. The deity was typically mentioned as the “Creator,” or “Divine Providence” (also in the Declaration). The idea was that nature was established by the deity who then had no further part in the course of events – thus, “Nature’s God.”

    3. How many times in the 11 state constitutions of 1776 & 1777 is Jesus mentioned?. a. zero, b. one, c. five, d. eleven.

    A hint. It’s more than zero. It’s true. Even at the state level, in founding Christian governments, the drafters of the state constitutions failed to mention Jesus Christ more than a single time, specified in the oath taken by the legislators in a single state, Delaware. While it may not have been a Christian Nation, at least in Delaware only Christians and liars could be members of the legislature.

    4. How many times in the 11 state constitutions of 1776 & 1777 is the word “Christian” used? a. zero, b. three, c. six, d. nine

    Bet you thought you had this one too. The correct answer is six times in three of the 11 constitutions. But that isn't necessarily a good thing for the “Christian Nation” advocates. Let’s consider New York first. Article XXXV of the Constitution of New York of April, 1777 states in part, “That all such parts of…common law, and…statutes and acts…as may be construed to establish or maintain any particular denomination of Christians or their ministers, …are repugnant to this constitution,…and they hereby are, abrogated and rejected.”

    The Constitution of Virginia of June 1776 states in Sec 16 of the Bill of Rights, “That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator…can be directed only by reason and conviction…and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other.” That isn't really establishing a “Christian” government but an encouragement to the people to respect the right of each person to practice religion as he sees fit.

    Finally, there is the Maryland Constitution of November, 1776. Christianity is mentioned twice in Article XXXIII where it states that every man has the right and duty to worship God any such a manner as seems most acceptable to him. It mentions Christians when it specifically extends the same right to those “professing the Christian religion.” In that same article, the legislature is authorized to levy taxes for the support of religion. However, control of where that money is to be spent is retained by the citizen rather than being given to the established state religion. Further on, in Articles XXXV and again in Article LV, a belief in the “Christian Religion,” along with requirements to reject the sovereignty of the King and to swear allegiance to the state, is specified as a requirement to hold elective or appointive office. It also states that no further religious test is required. It is interesting to note that the Supreme Court found a similar provision in the Maryland Constitution unconstitutional when a man appointed as a notary public was denied that commission by a court clerk because he refused to declare his belief in God. (Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961))

    At any rate, here in the Constitution of Maryland we do find intent to form a “Christian Nation.” However, I don’t think that two of the 13 states that we have found so far are enough to ascribe that view to the founding fathers from all states.

    5. How many times in the 11 state constitutions of 1776 & 1777 is there a reference to the “Creator?” a. zero, b. four, c. eight, d. twelve

    Did you take a lucky guess and say eight? Then you are wrong because it is four. In the Constitution of New York of April, 1777 the Declaration of Independence is quoted, all of it. Thus, just as the Declaration contains one reference to the Creator, so does the Constitution of New York.

    In the Constitution of Pennsylvania of September, 1776, the form of the oath to be taken by members of the state assembly contains the word “Creator.” “I do believe in one God, the creator and governor of the universe, the rewarder of the good and the punisher of the wicked. And I do acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine inspiration.” It goes on to state that there should be no further religious test. Here was the perfect place to specify a “Christian Nation” (or at least a Christian State) and it misses the mark. It doesn't require a belief in Christianity and thus, even deists could be members of the state assembly. Thus, Benjamin Franklin was not only a member, but the President of the Executive Council.

    Since the Constitution of Vermont of July, 1777 was an almost verbatim copy of the Constitution of Pennsylvania, it contains one reference to a “Creator” in the oath sworn by members of the state legislature.

    The single mention of a “Creator” in the Constitution of Virginia has already been mentioned in question 4. Remember that it was in reference to the duty to practice religion and that every man is free to do so as he sees fit.

    Also remember that use of “Creator” for the deity was typical of deists and apparently acceptable for Christians.

    6. How many times in the 11 state constitutions of 1776 & 1777 is there a reference to “God?” a. zero, b. eight, c. eighteen, d. twenty-eight.

    Of course, the mention of God is not an indication that one is a Christian. Such a claim would be silly in the extreme. However, the 11 state constitutions mention God a total of twenty eight times. Delaware = 2 – both times in the profession of faith for legislators. Georgia = 4 – in all cases as “so help me God” in the form of the oaths for various offices. Maryland = 1 – in the previously mentioned (in question 4) statement of freedom of religion from Article XXXIII. New Jersey = 1 – in a rather forceful statement of religious freedom in Article XVIII. New York = 2 – the first being the previously mentioned quote of the entire Declaration of Independence and the second being in Article XXXIX, where it prohibits ministers of religion from holding any state office. Peculiar if the intent was to establish a “Christian Nation.” North Carolina = 2 – once in a weak statement of religious freedom, and once in Article XXXII, where denial of God or the Protestant faith prohibits service in any state office. (So that makes 3 “Christian Nations.”) Pennsylvania = 3 – twice in Article II, a forceful statement of religious freedom, and once in Sect. 10, in the oath taken by legislators. South Carolina = 1 – in the oath taken by legislators. Vermont = 12 – 9 are in the form of various oaths, and 3 are in the statement of religious freedom.

    7. In how many of the 13 original states plus the Republic of Vermont were members of the clergy allowed to sit in the legislature? a. fourteen, b. nine, c. five, d. three.

    I presume that the answer is five, since nine states expressly forbade members of the clergy from being elected to the legislature. Some were stricter than others and prohibited clergy members from holding any office in government or commission in the militia. The states were Maryland, Virginia, Delaware, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Georgia, New York, South Carolina, and New Hampshire.

    8. How many total times did the Articles of Confederation mention God, Jesus, Christian, Creator, or religion? a. zero, b. three, c. five, d. seven

    You’re getting the hang of this by now, aren't you? Yes, it’s true. The initial founding document of the United States of America, the Articles of Confederation, contained references to any of the above zero times. Wouldn't it be more logical that if it were the intent of the men who wrote the Articles of Confederation to establish a “Christian Nation” there would be some mention of Jesus, God, or religion?

    9. How many times does the Constitution of the United States mention God, Jesus, Creator, or Christian? a. zero, b. three, c. five, d. seven.

    I’m sure you got this one right too. Again, the answer is zero times. It’s a peculiar state of affairs for a document that is purported to establish a “Christian Nation.”

    10. How many times does the Constitution of the United States make any reference to religion? a. zero, b. one, c. two, d. three.

    I know that it seems strange for a “Christian Nation,” but the answer is once, in 3. of Article VI. “but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

    11. How many times does the Bill of Rights mention God, Jesus, Creator, Christian, or make any reference to religion? a. zero, b. one, c. two, d. three.

    You all got this one too, right? The answer is, of course, one time in the First Amendment. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” Again, strange if the purpose was the establishment of a “Christian Nation.”

    12. How many of the 13 original colonies had an established religion at one time or another in their history? a. thirteen, b. twelve, c. eight, d. five.

    Every one of them with the exception of Rhode Island. One of the final works of James Madison before he left for the Continental Convention of 1787 was to defeat a bill that would have paid “teachers of Christian religion” from taxes, and then to reintroduce Jefferson’s religious freedom bill that essentially disestablished the Anglican church in Virginia. The last state to have an established church was the Congregational church of Massachusetts. There is a letter from Thomas Jefferson to John Adams congratulating Adams on the occasion.

    13. “Christian Nation” advocates claim that they are correct because most of the people of the 13 colonies were Christians. In reality, according to historians, what percentage of the people actually attended any church at around the time of the Revolution? a. 75-90%, b. 50-75%, c. 20-50%, d. 5-20%.

    Did you guess d? Right. For example, Lynn R. Buzzard, executive director of the Christian Legal Society states that not only were a good many of the revolutionary leaders deists, but that perhaps as little as 5% of the populace were church members. Other sources (I have 5 more) place the number as low as 4% up to 10-15%.

    14. True or false. The Constitution of the United States does not mention the separation of church and state.

    A big talking point with the “Christian Nation” crowd, it is true. But our Constitution is based on the principle that any power not granted to the federal government by the Constitution is reserved to the people and the states. Thus, since no religious powers are granted, the federal government has no right to legislate in religious matters. At least this is what was argued at the time of the ratification of the Constitution. Nevertheless, the First Amendment formalized the restriction on the Congress. It was actually Thomas Jefferson who stated that the purpose of the First Amendment was to erect a “wall of separation” between church and state.

    And isn't it funny that “Christian Nation” advocates think that it is meaningful that the separation of church and state isn't specifically mentioned, and yet have no problem with the fact that God, Jesus, and Christian Nation aren't mentioned either?

    15. How many of the first 7 Presidents of the United States were Christians? a. zero, b. two, c. four, d. six.

    According to the Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, “among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion.” Rev. Wilson, in the same sermon in 1831 asserted that the founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had to that time been elected, not a one had professed a belief in Christianity. Those Presidents were Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, J.Q. Adams, and Jackson. During his time as President Jackson was never known to attend church. However, after he left the Presidency and retired to Nashville, he joined the First Presbyterian Church. He was over 70 at the time.

    It seems to me that if it was the intention to found a “Christian Nation” that their intent would be quite clear. The founding fathers of at least three states had no problem in making their intentions known. To participate in those governments a citizen had to be a Christian. In others, it seems that deism would also have been acceptable. But in our “Christian Nation” matters of religion are dealt with only in the form of restrictions on the part of the government to interfere with the free practice of any religion. To me the intent to form a secular nation is quite clear.

    Tell us how you did on this quiz.
    Last edited by pandion; 07-16-2011 at 12:04 AM.
    From The Treaty of Tripoli, Art. 11, negociated under Washington, passed unanimously by the senate, and signed by Adams -- "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"

  2. #2
    Zorba Guest
    Rather than responding to your childish and very inaccurate quiz which makes massive fallacious assumptions and asks all of the wrong questions regarding your bogus claim that born again evangelicals "which is implied but not stated categorically by you," or any knowledgable americans believe the founders ever intended to form a CHRISTIAN NATION, Let me offer the truth regarding their intention in forming this new country.

    I mean, any schmuck should be able to deduce that it was England that had a State Religion which was in fact a christian sect, and the Puritans left England in order to escape that forced and oppressive religious indoctrination. So why would our founders attempt to create a form of government that imposed any type of state religion upon its citizenry? It makes absolutely no sense so the complete premise of this thread is not only stupid but bogus, to the max.

    In all of your mindless rant you never pointed out one true original intent of the founding Fathers. Simply put, the founders were painfully clear that the Government "could not" EVER impose any State Religion on the People who in fact are the reason for the government existing for the people, by the people and of the people.

    How this intent could ever be interpreted by anyone as the founders wanting to create a "CHRISTIAN NATION" is beyond me. The only people who make this claim are militant atheists who are seeking to create a red herring issue in order to further erase God from the public square through a manufactured paranoia of a non existent religious intrusion or expansion by Christians.

    What is in fact reality and has always been a reality in America is that Christianity is to be freely practiced without fear of intimidation just as every other religion is free to be practiced by however large or small a segment of the population.

    When Madalyn Murray O'Hair successfully had prayer and bible reading in public schools declared unconstitutional in 1963, she affectively created an issue where none had existed prior to her godless crusade. I know this because I was a 10 year old moslem child in public school at the very time of the ruling and I was never forced to say any type of christian prayer or any prayer at all in school.

    We were not pressured to pray or made to feel guilty if we didn't pray. I went to school with JWs who wouldn't pledge allegiance to the flag and don't remember any of them ever being harassed for practicing that part of their religion.

    Atheists must create nonexistent issues in order to further oppress the freedom of religion that must always exist in America while never being forced on anyone to practice any specific religion at all. It was this fundamental freedom of religion that made America the great melting pot that became the richest, freest and most industrious nation in the history of the planet, in the shortest amount of time.

    Only in this country could immigrants come here, and one generation later have children who had assimilated to become successful first generation americans with full confidence that the government existed to protect them and their rights as full and equal citizens.

    It is the radical agenda of divide and conquer from the militant atheist that has done so much damage to the unity that once existed in this country. Those who must demonize anyone who holds to spiritual values are the people who have created dissent and mistrust to the point of damaging the very confidence in the republic for which we once stood as a people, rather than the fragmented groups of peoples we are today in this fractured country of US vs THEM.

    That atmosphere exists because of you and your ilk pandion, not me and mine. And this libelous and inaccurate thread is solid evidence of the ignorance and divisiveness that defines your type.
    Last edited by Zorba; 07-16-2011 at 02:08 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
    Atheists must create nonexistent issues in order to further oppress the freedom of religion that must always exist in America while never being forced on anyone to practice any specific religion at all. It was this fundamental freedom of religion that made America the great melting pot that became the richest, freest and most industrious nation in the history of the planet, in the shortest amount of time.
    I've heard it spewed from the mouth of the religious my entire life.. " This Nation was founded on the Premise of GOD".. get your facts straight Zorbo... Atheists didn't make this story up to create anything. pandion's post is the truth, and as usual you can't handle the truth when it shows your religion for what it really is.. get over it.
    "You're too stupid to be saved." -- EasyRider.


    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
    Epicurus

  4. #4
    Zorba Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Xcaliber View Post
    I've heard it spewed from the mouth of the religious my entire life.. " This Nation was founded on the Premise of GOD".. get your facts straight Zorbo... Atheists didn't make this story up to create anything. pandion's post is the truth, and as usual you can't handle the truth when it shows your religion for what it really is.. get over it.
    As usual, you must rewrite history in order to support your godless world view. Here is the FIRST, mind you the VERY FIRST AMENDMENT to our Constitution:

    Amendment I
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Amendments

    People like you and pandion are purposely perverting the fact that back before laws were written on the books in america's judicial system the laws that applied in England along with the bible was considered an authoritative source of moral and ethical wisdom that played a large part in what was considered the "common law" of the land.

    Because the bible was originally used as a source to determine the moral laws of America you must infer that it was christians attempting to force their values upon the masses. Nothing could be further from the truth since members of the judiciary used the bible as a reliable source of moral authority. Believe it or not, not every generation of unbelievers in Jesus as their personal Saviors were devout and avowed enemies of God as you modern atheists are. They weren't necessarily personally religious but they held to the moral standards in the bible along with the English common laws which were also founded in the bible.

    And why is it that all I ever get from your side is cheap lip service as you insist you're right while offering no practical or historical evidence at all? You leftist hate mongers have nothing more to offer than lies that seek to insist how right you are because you want to believe you're right. The truth or historical accuracy means absolutely nothing to you or your ilk which is why debating any issue with you is a complete waste of time.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
    As usual, you must rewrite history in order to support your godless world view. Here is the FIRST, mind you the VERY FIRST AMENDMENT to our Constitution:

    Amendment I
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Amendments

    People like you and pandion are purposely perverting the fact that back before laws were written on the books in america's judicial system the laws that applied in England along with the bible was considered an authoritative source of moral and ethical wisdom that played a large part in what was considered the "common law" of the land.

    Because the bible was originally used as a source to determine the moral laws of America you must infer that it was christians attempting to force their values upon the masses. Nothing could be further from the truth since members of the judiciary used the bible as a reliable source of moral authority. Believe it or not, not every generation of unbelievers in Jesus as their personal Saviors were devout and avowed enemies of God as you modern atheists are. They weren't necessarily personally religious but they held to the moral standards in the bible along with the English common laws which were also founded in the bible.

    And why is it that all I ever get from your side is cheap lip service as you insist you're right while offering no practical or historical evidence at all? You leftist hate mongers have nothing more to offer than lies that seek to insist how right you are because you want to believe you're right. The truth or historical accuracy means absolutely nothing to you or your ilk which is why debating any issue with you is a complete waste of time.
    No, no , no.. Don't change your tune now that you've been called out.. You made the claim that it was a Atheist Conspiracy to somehow make religious freaks look bad... I know full well the U.S. was not founded as a Christian Nation. You religious Zealots are the ones going around claiming otherwise. You religious zealots are the ones ignoring History, or completely re-writing history to fit the U.S. into your ignorant book of fairy tales.

    Protestants came here so that they could practice their own version of the Christian Faith, and to distance themselves from England which was controlled by the Catholic Church. The " Nation" was founded because Citizens living here in the 13 colonies didn't want to pay Taxes without being allowed a representative in parliament. Religion, God, nor Jebus had anything to do with "Why" we formed a Nation. You delusional Christian crackpots are the ones who like to ignore the truth and claim the U.S. as "Gods" land...

    Perhaps you should read some more history and get at least some facts straight before you attempt to subvert the truth and write your own version.
    "You're too stupid to be saved." -- EasyRider.


    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
    Epicurus

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
    Rather than responding to your childish and very inaccurate quiz which makes massive fallacious assumptions and asks all of the wrong questions regarding your bogus claim that born again evangelicals "which is implied but not stated categorically by you," or any knowledgable americans believe the founders ever intended to form a CHRISTIAN NATION, Let me offer the truth regarding their intention in forming this new country.
    Wow! That's pretty shrill. It's hard to discuss things with a small child having a tantrum, but I'll try. First, you state that my quiz is inaccurate. Please point out those inaccuracies. Be specific. What did I get wrong. For example, where is your god mentioned in the Constitution? Secondly, the christian nation claim is quite common from ignorant christians. If you had paid attention you would have heard it from the both Presidents Bush, Newt Gingrich, Sarah Palin, Rick Santorum, Michele Bachmann, etc. I certainly would never think that anyone who had actually read the Constitution or any of the historical documents would think that this was founded as a christian nation. Someone expressed that idea to me. I was stunned.
    [quote]I mean, any schmuck should be able to deduce that it was England that had a State Religion which was in fact a christian sect, and the Puritans left England in order to escape that forced and oppressive religious indoctrination.[quote]Any schmuck should be able to deduce that the OP has nothing to do with England and any of the christian cults. By the way, the Puritans left England to establish a colony where they could enforce their own oppressive religious indoctrination. Any schmuck who can read and has made an effort knows that the Puritans established one of the most oppressive governments ever. You are aware that the Puritans of Massachusetts Bay Colony actually used to hang religious dissenters, aren't you?
    So why would our founders attempt to create a form of government that imposed any type of state religion upon its citizenry? It makes absolutely no sense so the complete premise of this thread is not only stupid but bogus, to the max.
    I don't know why, but 12 of the 13 original colonies did so. And, as mentioned, I have heard such claims from christians all my life. Perhaps you remember Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe, 530 U.S. 290 (2000). It was a case that involved prayer at school events. That case and the aftermath, including cross burning on the lawns of Jewish families by the christians who blamed the Jews, was on the news around here almost every night. Interviews with the citizens of Santa Fe were often aired wherein they quite clearly stated that this is a christian nation. So it seems that you are insulting christians with your whinning.
    In all of your mindless rant you never pointed out one true original intent of the founding Fathers. Simply put, the founders were painfully clear that the Government "could not" EVER impose any State Religion on the People who in fact are the reason for the government existing for the people, by the people and of the people.
    Could you point out where I even hinted that the intent of the founding fathers was to form a christian nation? You didn't read the OP did you? Of course I am well aware that efforts (by christians) to introduce religion into our government were defeated. I am aware that most of the leading founding fathers were not christian, but Deists. Even John Adams denied the divinity of Christ - he was a Unitarian you know. Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, Thomas Paine, Paul Revere, William Dawes, George Washington and others were Deists.
    How this intent could ever be interpreted by anyone as the founders wanting to create a "CHRISTIAN NATION" is beyond me.
    Me too, but there are enough ignorant chrisians that make the claim.
    The only people who make this claim are militant atheists who are seeking to create a red herring issue in order to further erase God from the public square through a manufactured paranoia of a non existent religious intrusion or expansion by Christians.
    So you are aware of the efforts by christians to introduce religion into government and to erect religious symbols on public buildings? How on earth did you miss their justification for doing so? I guess you weren't paying attention.
    What is in fact reality and has always been a reality in America is that Christianity is to be freely practiced without fear of intimidation just as every other religion is free to be practiced by however large or small a segment of the population.
    Except that has never been the case. Christians have always been only too willing to oppress other religions. They still are, as far as I can see.
    When Madalyn Murray O'Hair successfully had prayer and bible reading in public schools declared unconstitutional in 1963, she affectively created an issue where none had existed prior to her godless crusade. I know this because I was a 10 year old moslem child in public school at the very time of the ruling and I was never forced to say any type of christian prayer or any prayer at all in school.
    But you didn't attend all of the schools where children were forced to pray. Further, god has no place in a public school. The silly mythology of religion should be taught in churches, not in schools.

    I'll just ignore the rest of your non-responsive, silly rant. Perhaps you should read the OP before you make yourself look even sillier. You might actually address the topic in future posts.
    From The Treaty of Tripoli, Art. 11, negociated under Washington, passed unanimously by the senate, and signed by Adams -- "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"

  7. #7
    Zorba Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Xcaliber View Post
    No, no , no.. Don't change your tune now that you've been called out.. You made the claim that it was a Atheist Conspiracy to somehow make religious freaks look bad... I know full well the U.S. was not founded as a Christian Nation. You religious Zealots are the ones going around claiming otherwise. You religious zealots are the ones ignoring History, or completely re-writing history to fit the U.S. into your ignorant book of fairy tales.

    Protestants came here so that they could practice their own version of the Christian Faith, and to distance themselves from England which was controlled by the Catholic Church. The " Nation" was founded because Citizens living here in the 13 colonies didn't want to pay Taxes without being allowed a representative in parliament. Religion, God, nor Jebus had anything to do with "Why" we formed a Nation. You delusional Christian crackpots are the ones who like to ignore the truth and claim the U.S. as "Gods" land...

    Perhaps you should read some more history and get at least some facts straight before you attempt to subvert the truth and write your own version.
    Everything you say here is absolute horse dung where reality is concerned. Especially since I, a born again believer is here adamantly denying that I or every christian community I have ever been associated with would ever support or endorse a christian oligarchy in the USA.

    That belief is solely the delusion of you godless heathens who claim to have the intellectual capacity to categorize us as wanting to use our faith in God to dominate you. Well, nothing could be further from the truth.

    I realize full well that for any religion to rule the masses and be forced on the countries people would relegate the USA to become as oppressive and tyrannical a force as England was when the Puritans determined to escape England for the new world.

    You thrive on labeling us and laying these accusations of power mongering on us because we dare to stand up to your immoral and perverted world views with our traditional value system that existed when America became the richest, most respected and most powerful nation on Earth.

    What you reprobate atheists are too stupid to realize is that we are declining as a world superpower only since your degenerate leftist/socialist/progressive ideology has taken hold through its gradually accelerated promotion in our public schools over the past 4 decades which is leading our social infrastructure as a nation into the same reprobate gutter that your moral value system came out of.

    Unfortunately for you and your fellow victims, you have been so thoroughly brainwashed and you are so simple minded that you can't recognize that you have been molded into precisely the type of mindless lemmings the powers that be need you to be so that you will respond and react on command at the hot button words they speak according to their timetable.

  8. #8
    Zorba Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by pandion View Post
    Wow! That's pretty shrill. It's hard to discuss things with a small child having a tantrum, but I'll try. First, you state that my quiz is inaccurate. Please point out those inaccuracies. Be specific. What did I get wrong. For example, where is your god mentioned in the Constitution? Secondly, the christian nation claim is quite common from ignorant christians. If you had paid attention you would have heard it from the both Presidents Bush, Newt Gingrich, Sarah Palin, Rick Santorum, Michele Bachmann, etc. I certainly would never think that anyone who had actually read the Constitution or any of the historical documents would think that this was founded as a christian nation. Someone expressed that idea to me. I was stunned.
    I mean, any schmuck should be able to deduce that it was England that had a State Religion which was in fact a christian sect, and the Puritans left England in order to escape that forced and oppressive religious indoctrination.
    Any schmuck should be able to deduce that the OP has nothing to do with England and any of the christian cults. By the way, the Puritans left England to establish a colony where they could enforce their own oppressive religious indoctrination. Any schmuck who can read and has made an effort knows that the Puritans established one of the most oppressive governments ever. You are aware that the Puritans of Massachusetts Bay Colony actually used to hang religious dissenters, aren't you?

    I don't know why, but 12 of the 13 original colonies did so. And, as mentioned, I have heard such claims from christians all my life. Perhaps you remember Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe, 530 U.S. 290 (2000). It was a case that involved prayer at school events. That case and the aftermath, including cross burning on the lawns of Jewish families by the christians who blamed the Jews, was on the news around here almost every night. Interviews with the citizens of Santa Fe were often aired wherein they quite clearly stated that this is a christian nation. So it seems that you are insulting christians with your whinning.

    Could you point out where I even hinted that the intent of the founding fathers was to form a christian nation? You didn't read the OP did you? Of course I am well aware that efforts (by christians) to introduce religion into our government were defeated. I am aware that most of the leading founding fathers were not christian, but Deists. Even John Adams denied the divinity of Christ - he was a Unitarian you know. Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, Thomas Paine, Paul Revere, William Dawes, George Washington and others were Deists.

    Me too, but there are enough ignorant chrisians that make the claim.

    So you are aware of the efforts by christians to introduce religion into government and to erect religious symbols on public buildings? How on earth did you miss their justification for doing so? I guess you weren't paying attention.

    Except that has never been the case. Christians have always been only too willing to oppress other religions. They still are, as far as I can see.

    But you didn't attend all of the schools where children were forced to pray. Further, god has no place in a public school. The silly mythology of religion should be taught in churches, not in schools.

    I'll just ignore the rest of your non-responsive, silly rant. Perhaps you should read the OP before you make yourself look even sillier. You might actually address the topic in future posts.
    Sorry you find the truth to be so shrill. (I've quoted my post in question so objective observers can judge for themselves which of us is shrill.) But since you prefer the lie to the truth which is all you ramble on here with, its no surprise to me that you choose to see it that way.

    As for your 3rd degree and continued questioning of me as if i'm obligated to answer your stupid questions, let me say that I answered you and made my point in the quoted post. Why I would even attempt to reason with someone who would post such a ridiculously inaccurate thread subject with absolutely no supporting evidence that christians like me actually do claim this country was created to be a christian oligarchy simply boggles my mind.

    You people create an issue of logical irrelevance by accusing christians of claiming this Country was founded to be a Christian Nation, and continue to insist we believe that in spite of the fact that I, a self proclaimed born again Christian is insisting REPEATEDLY that I reject that claim and oppose any attempt to make this country a christian oligarchy with every fibre of my being.

    To summarize pandion, before attempting to weigh me down by challenging me to respond to your tedious, shallow and ignorant drivel, please first proffer evidence that what you are claiming is founded in any kind of reality at all. Ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
    Rather than responding to your childish and very inaccurate quiz which makes massive fallacious assumptions and asks all of the wrong questions regarding your bogus claim that born again evangelicals "which is implied but not stated categorically by you," or any knowledgable americans believe the founders ever intended to form a CHRISTIAN NATION, Let me offer the truth regarding their intention in forming this new country.

    I mean, any schmuck should be able to deduce that it was England that had a State Religion which was in fact a christian sect, and the Puritans left England in order to escape that forced and oppressive religious indoctrination. So why would our founders attempt to create a form of government that imposed any type of state religion upon its citizenry? It makes absolutely no sense so the complete premise of this thread is not only stupid but bogus, to the max.

    In all of your mindless rant you never pointed out one true original intent of the founding Fathers. Simply put, the founders were painfully clear that the Government "could not" EVER impose any State Religion on the People who in fact are the reason for the government existing for the people, by the people and of the people.

    How this intent could ever be interpreted by anyone as the founders wanting to create a "CHRISTIAN NATION" is beyond me. The only people who make this claim are militant atheists who are seeking to create a red herring issue in order to further erase God from the public square through a manufactured paranoia of a non existent religious intrusion or expansion by Christians.

    What is in fact reality and has always been a reality in America is that Christianity is to be freely practiced without fear of intimidation just as every other religion is free to be practiced by however large or small a segment of the population.

    When Madalyn Murray O'Hair successfully had prayer and bible reading in public schools declared unconstitutional in 1963, she affectively created an issue where none had existed prior to her godless crusade. I know this because I was a 10 year old moslem child in public school at the very time of the ruling and I was never forced to say any type of christian prayer or any prayer at all in school.

    We were not pressured to pray or made to feel guilty if we didn't pray. I went to school with JWs who wouldn't pledge allegiance to the flag and don't remember any of them ever being harassed for practicing that part of their religion.

    Atheists must create nonexistent issues in order to further oppress the freedom of religion that must always exist in America while never being forced on anyone to practice any specific religion at all. It was this fundamental freedom of religion that made America the great melting pot that became the richest, freest and most industrious nation in the history of the planet, in the shortest amount of time.

    Only in this country could immigrants come here, and one generation later have children who had assimilated to become successful first generation americans with full confidence that the government existed to protect them and their rights as full and equal citizens.

    It is the radical agenda of divide and conquer from the militant atheist that has done so much damage to the unity that once existed in this country. Those who must demonize anyone who holds to spiritual values are the people who have created dissent and mistrust to the point of damaging the very confidence in the republic for which we once stood as a people, rather than the fragmented groups of peoples we are today in this fractured country of US vs THEM.

    That atmosphere exists because of you and your ilk pandion, not me and mine. And this libelous and inaccurate thread is solid evidence of the ignorance and divisiveness that defines your type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
    Everything you say here is absolute horse dung where reality is concerned. Especially since I, a born again believer is here adamantly denying that I or every christian community I have ever been associated with would ever support or endorse a christian oligarchy in the USA.
    Hmm.. does that include the Muslim Communities you were associated with too?.. We know as rational people that Denial is the Christians best weapon. You should seriously consider increasing your medications..

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
    That belief is solely the delusion of you godless heathens who claim to have the intellectual capacity to categorize us as wanting to use our faith in God to dominate you. Well, nothing could be further from the truth.
    Wrong again.. Man you are as dumb as a rock aren't you... or is it just the religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
    I realize full well that for any religion to rule the masses and be forced on the countries people would relegate the USA to become as oppressive and tyrannical a force as England was when the Puritans determined to escape England for the new world.
    Because of the Fundamental Radical Right in this Country we are one of the most oppressive and tyrannical nations , even more so than old England was when we came here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
    You thrive on labeling us and laying these accusations of power mongering on us because we dare to stand up to your immoral and perverted world views with our traditional value system that existed when America became the richest, most respected and most powerful nation on Earth.
    Oh stop driveling, it's not doing you any good. You're by far the most ignorant of the Christians I have had the displeasure of crossing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
    What you reprobate atheists are too stupid to realize is that we are declining as a world superpower only since your degenerate leftist/socialist/progressive ideology has taken hold through its gradually accelerated promotion in our public schools over the past 4 decades which is leading our social infrastructure as a nation into the same reprobate gutter that your moral value system came out of.
    Wrong yet again.. it's because of Religion driving half of our Government that is sending the U.S. into a decline . Ignorant Christian M-o-r-o-n-s thinking they know how to govern. You're Moral code is by far worse than your hypocrisy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
    Unfortunately for you and your fellow victims, you have been so thoroughly brainwashed and you are so simple minded that you can't recognize that you have been molded into precisely the type of mindless lemmings the powers that be need you to be so that you will respond and react on command at the hot button words they speak according to their timetable.
    Trust me, I'm far from brainwashed. I for one don't follow the invisible man in the sky and I damn sure don't let a book of fairy tales rule my life. See the Difference between Me and You is that I don't need a Imaginary friend to tell me what is right and wrong. I don't need a Jewish Zombie to validate my life. I'm perfectly aware and fully understand that we as Humans only have one life, I don't waste mine seeking some imaginary delusion of immortality.

    I know you're not capable of comprehending all of this, and you may have to have an adult read it back to you so you can understand it. Or maybe you can ask your imaginary friend to help you out.. you seem to let him tell you what to do anyway.....
    "You're too stupid to be saved." -- EasyRider.


    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
    Epicurus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
    You people create an issue of logical irrelevance by accusing christians of claiming this Country was founded to be a Christian Nation, and continue to insist we believe that in spite of the fact that I, a self proclaimed born again Christian is insisting REPEATEDLY that I reject that claim and oppose any attempt to make this country a christian oligarchy with every fibre of my being.
    Here dumbass..

    Hot Topic: Is U.S. A "Christian Nation?" - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

    Newsweek polling found that 62 percent of Americans believe theirs to be a Christian nation – which, despite being down from 69 percent last year, is a formidable number.

    62% of Americans.. I would say that's a majority of airheads in this country. I'm fairly certain that you believe this too, you're just in denial. I'll be looking back through some of your old posts because I'm certain you have claimed this yourself.. better start editing now.... roflmao...

    what a hypocrite
    "You're too stupid to be saved." -- EasyRider.


    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
    Epicurus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
    To summarize pandion, before attempting to weigh me down by challenging me to respond to your tedious, shallow and ignorant drivel, please first proffer evidence that what you are claiming is founded in any kind of reality at all. Ok?
    Why the hysteria? My point is that there was no intent by the founding fathers to found the US as a christian nation, especially since the major players in that founding weren't christians. I'm not sure what you are screaming about, but it isn't relevant to the intent of this thread. You keep screaming about my inaccuracies and lies and yet have been unable to point out a single one. And yet you whine loudly about the elimination of christian prayer from public schools. Did you forget to take your meds?

    You couldn't possibly be more of an embarrassment to christianity. Notice the complete lack of christian posters after you made christianity look stupid.

    I presume that your rabid anger is because you did so badly on the quiz.
    From The Treaty of Tripoli, Art. 11, negociated under Washington, passed unanimously by the senate, and signed by Adams -- "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandion View Post
    Why the hysteria? My point is that there was no intent by the founding fathers to found the US as a christian nation, especially since the major players in that founding weren't christians.
    According to Dr. M.E. Bradford of the University of Dallas, of the 55 framers, 28 were Episcopalians, 8 were Presbyterians, 7 were Congregationalists, and there were two each of Lutherans, Dutch Reformed, Methodists and Roman Catholics. That left, by Bradford's counting, three deists and one founder whose religious views cannot be determined definitively.

    And the three deists, Benjamin Franklin among them, were not true deists.

    Were the Founders Christians? Yep, no doubt about it

    In addition, Jefferson and many other founding fathers attended church services in government buildings, even AFTER Jefferson wrote his Danbury "separation" letter.

    So please get your facts straight.
    Last edited by Easyrider; 07-17-2011 at 07:15 AM.
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandion View Post
    From The Treaty of Tripoli, Art. 11, negociated under Washington, passed unanimously by the senate, and signed by Adams -- "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"
    Article 11 (which is in dispute, by the way) merely says that the government of America is not founded on the Christian religion, as in a theocracy. This does not mean that the majority of Americans were not of the Christian faith, and it certainly doesn't address the numerous Judeo-Christian principles upon which our country was founded. In those respects, it falls short in describing America.
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandion View Post
    I am aware that most of the leading founding fathers were not christian, but Deists. Even John Adams denied the divinity of Christ - he was a Unitarian you know. Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, Thomas Paine, Paul Revere, William Dawes, George Washington and others were Deists.
    <Flush>

    See my prior posts on the religious beliefs of the founding fathers. And to go further, let's look at what a deist is and what a number of your examples are on record as saying.

    One of the standard definitions of Deism, then and now, is this:

    Deism is defined in Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1941, as: "[From Latin Deus, God.Deity] The doctrine or creed of a Deist." And Deist is defined in the same dictionary as: "One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason."

    A true deist was one who believed God created the universe and then sat back and (1) did not involve himself in the affairs of men and nations and, (2) did not give (divine) revelation to man.

    Benjamin Franklin, for example, did not fit this mold. Franklin said the following during the Constitutional Convention:

    "I've lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing Proofs I see of this Truth —That God governs in the Affairs of Men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his Notice, is it probable that an Empire can rise without his Aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that except the Lord build the House they labor in vain who build it. I firmly believe this, —and I also believe that without his concurring Aid, we shall succeed in this political Building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our Projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a Reproach and Bye word down to future Ages." - Speech to the Constitutional Convention (June 28, 1787)

    It’s pretty obvious that Franklin believed in a God who did involve himself in the affairs of men and nations, and Franklin also alludes to the New Testament as “Sacred Writings” which also reveal God’s revelation to man. So scratch Franklin as a true deist.

    George Washington was an open promoter of Christianity. For example, in his speech on May 12, 1779, he claimed that what children needed to learn “above all” was the “religion of Jesus Christ,” and that to learn this would make them “greater and happier than they already are”; on May 2, 1778, he charged his soldiers at Valley Forge that “To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian”; and when he resigned his commission as commander-in-chief of the military on June 8, 1783, he reminded the nation that “without a humble imitation” of “the Divine Author of our blessed religion” we “can never hope to be a happy nation.” Washington's own adopted daughter declared of Washington that you might as well question his patriotism as to question his Christianity.

    In addition, the inscription on Washington's tomb at Mount Vernon is this:

    WITHIN THIS ENCLOSURE REST THE REMAINS OF GENL. GEORGE WASHINGTON." Over the door of the inner tomb is inscribed: "I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE."

    James Madison trained for ministry with the Rev. Dr. John Witherspoon, and Madison's writings are replete with declarations of his faith in God and in Christ. In fact, for proof of this, one only need read his letter to Attorney General Bradford wherein Madison laments that public officials are not bold enough about their Christian faith in public and that public officials should be “fervent advocates in the cause of Christ.” And while Madison did allude to a “wall of separation,” contemporary writers frequently refuse to allow Madison to provide his own definition of that “wall.” According to Madison, the purpose of that “wall” was only to prevent Congress from passing a national law to establish a national religion.

    Several of your other examples have serious issues too.

    If these are true deists then you are muddying the waters of what a deist actually believed - a common trick of liberals and atheists.
    “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

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    Quote Originally Posted by Easyrider View Post
    In addition, Jefferson and many other founding fathers attended church services in government buildings, even AFTER Jefferson wrote his Danbury "separation" letter.

    So please get your facts straight.
    How about you get your facts straight.. Jefferson was a Deist. Like most People today a persons religion is usually determined by the religion they were born into. A person who Doesn't attend Church, doesn't prey, or doesn't conform to religion will identify themselves with Christianity because their Parents were Christians. I've known Atheists who have attended church services, so the fact that Jefferson " Attended" church does not mean he believed.

    His own Words prove beyond any doubt he was not a Practicing Christian. All you need to do is read his book " The Jefferson Bible" .. you know , the one where he re-wrote the Bible removing the Supernatural events and Miracles because he didn't believe in the divinity of Jebus Christ.

    We all know how much you would like to think this was founded as a Christian Nation, but You'd be wrong. Christianity may have been the predominate religion at the time but the Founders specifically did not establish a national religion and never intended the U.S. to be a " nation Under God" ....
    "You're too stupid to be saved." -- EasyRider.


    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
    Epicurus

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