Originally Posted by poet

The founders were liberals

why would you say that??? Any idea???

Originally Posted by poet

who were fed up with the robber barons of England and the court. You're confused.

robber barrons?? was that in the Declaration?? Any document from the period??? THe courts???? Was that the subject of the Declaration. Confused??? See why we are positive a liberal will be slow

Originally Posted by White Bread

The term liberal today and in Jefferson's day have dramatically differing meanings. A liberal in Jefferson's days was essentially a Libertarian by today's standards.
A modern liberal is a big-government statist. That's as far removed from Jefferson as you can get.

Not really. Napoleon was also a liberal, and certainly not a libertarian. The definition has not changed. We have just attached the label to a party and people fling it around like it is some kind of insult.

Even if you wanted to play liberal=democrat, Jefferson was probably a lot closer to a modern democrat than a modern republican.

During that time period, the only real wealth was land. You had land, you were wealthy. You didnt, you werent. When it came to land, the economies of most of Europe were still pretty much operating on a feudal economic system. You had the land, you leased it to people who worked it, they paid you, that was your wealth.

Here in the US, guys like Jefferson advocated GIVING land away. It was the most socialist thing the world had ever seen. They advocated rule by the common man, not the aristocracy. They had NO respect for personal property...if you found an abandoned house, you could just move into it and it was yours.

Karl Marx based much of his doctrine on the founding of the United States and the actions of the founding fathers. When the US was founded, the means of production was LAND.

What Marx did was take it a step further and say "If they can do it with land, why not with the factories that come later...."

Originally Posted by daewoo

Not really. Napoleon was also a liberal,

absurd and idiotic!! A man most noted for attempting to conquer the world and kill millions in the process is a liberal??? I suppose Hiter and Stalin were liberals too??

Originally Posted by daewoo

The definition has not changed. We have just attached the label to a party and people fling it around like it is some kind of insult.

too stupid!!! Obama is a liberal and 100% agree. Why not go with the obvious definition in use today and not try to think on your own.

Originally Posted by daewoo

Even if you wanted to play liberal=democrat, Jefferson was probably a lot closer to a modern democrat than a modern republican.

perfectly insane. He founded the Republican Party in 1794 to start a revolution for freedom and liberty from government which, even then, he thought was way to big!!! If you doubt it read your ABC's, "Jefferson's Second Revolution"!! How dare you talk when you don't know word one!!

Originally Posted by daewoo

When the US was founded, the means of production was LAND.

What Marx did was take it a step further and say "If they can do it with land, why not with the factories that come later...."

OMG!!! land was made by God, factories were private property. Moreover, once Jefferson gave you land that was not his or the governments or created or owned by anybody, you were 100% on your own in a capitalist econony. He was 100% Republican capitalist. He read Adam Smith and even translated De Tracy from the French as the first economics text in America.

Originally Posted by Brutus

why would you say that??? Any idea???




robber barrons?? was that in the Declaration?? Any document from the period??? THe courts???? Was that the subject of the Declaration. Confused??? See why we are positive a liberal will be slow

Our Founding Fathers Were Liberal, NOT Conservative

Answers.com - Where would the Founding Fathers fit into today's political climate


Be enlightened.

Originally Posted by poet

Our Founding Fathers Were Liberal, NOT Conservative

Answers.com - Where would the Founding Fathers fit into today's political climate


Be enlightened.

why not try to put into words why freedom and liberty from government is liberal when liberals want more and more government.

Originally Posted by Brutus

absurd and idiotic!! A man most noted for attempting to conquer the world and kill millions in the process is a liberal??? I suppose Hiter and Stalin were liberals too??

Actually Hitler was a conservative. Stalin was, however, a liberal.

Again...those words have actual meaning. Look them up.

perfectly insane. He founded the Republican Party in 1794 to start a revolution for freedom and liberty from government which, even then, he thought was way to big!!! If you doubt it read your ABC's, "Jefferson's Second Revolution"!! How dare you talk when you don't know word one!!

Your response has nothing at all to do with my statement.

OMG!!! land was made by God, factories were private property. Moreover, once Jefferson gave you land that was not his or the governments or created or owned by anybody, you were 100% on your own in a capitalist econony. He was 100% Republican capitalist. He read Adam Smith and even translated De Tracy from the French as the first economics text in America.

So, once you go the land...the only store of value at the time...you were 100% on your own. To put that in modern terms "Once he inherited the 20 million from his dad, he was a completely self made man...."

Land was created by god, and the king was appointed by god so got to administer the land. I am not sure you have a good enough grasp of history to understand exactly how liberal jeffersons ideas were.

Marx just took things a step further. Just as Jefferson and the other founding fathers removed land from the monarch and pretty much tossed it out there for the common good, Marx advocated doing the same with factories. The US government made the initial investment (roads, protection, etc...) to make the land productive. Marx advocated the government making the initial investment in building the factories that would later provide wealth.

You can throw all the hissy fits you want, but the FACT is that much of Marxist theory was based on what the founding fathers did here in America.

Originally Posted by Brutus

why not try to put into words why freedom and liberty from government is liberal when liberals want more and more government.

Then why is it that for the last 40 years government growth has consistently been slower under democratic presidents (liberals) than republican ones (conservatives)?

Originally Posted by daewoo

Actually Hitler was a conservative. Stalin was, however, a liberal.

Again...those words have actual meaning. Look them up.

insane but perfectly liberal!!! the words obviously have had many different meanings at different times and places. What to do? Use the most common modern definition and so the most relevant and widely understood definition.

Jefferson saw history as a battle between big government liberal steatites versus those who wanted freedom and liberty from the state. Jefferson was a Republican; the statistic opposition at the time was called Federalist. Today Republicans stand for the same thing as Jefferson's Republicans and are called conservative, while today Democrats are called liberal steatites. Like Hitler (national socialist statist) and Stalin/Mao( communists liberal statist) they are opposed to freedom and liberty from the state.

To call Hitler and Stalin conservatives when they were the greatest statists in human history only confuses people who routinely use conservatism to refer to freedom and liberty from the state.

Do you see why we are positive the liberal will be slow? He can't even get past basic words, let alone understand conceptual matters.

Originally Posted by Brutus

insane but perfectly liberal!!! the words obviously have had many different meanings at different times and places. What to do? Use the most common modern definition and so the most relevant and widely understood definition.

Yours is not the most common modern definition nor is it the most relevant and widely used. You seem to be the only person on the planet that actually understands your definition of the word "liberal".

Mine, on the other hand, you can look up in pretty much any dictionary.

Jefferson saw history as a battle between big government liberal steatites versus those who wanted freedom and liberty from the state. Jefferson was a Republican; the statistic opposition at the time was called Federalist. Today Republicans stand for the same thing as Jefferson's Republicans and are called conservative, while today Democrats are called liberal steatites. Like Hitler (national socialist statist) and Stalin/Mao( communists liberal statist) they are opposed to freedom and liberty from the state.

WRONG. Oh, so laughably, stupidly WRONG. Jefferson did not seek freedom FROM government. He saw the government as an essential ingredient to freedom and liberty. You cannot be out pursuing happiness if you have to stay at home 24/7 and guard your wife and kids against marauding bands of pirates. The primary job of Jeffersons government was to protect the people.

To call Hitler and Stalin conservatives when they were the greatest statists in human history only confuses people who routinely use conservatism to refer to freedom and liberty from the state.

Hitler was a conservative. Stalin was a liberal. Your reading comprehension sucks.

Do you see why we are positive the liberal will be slow? He can't even get past basic words, let alone understand conceptual matters.

ROTFLMAO. I see what you mean. You are so slow you cannot understand basic words From dictionary.com:

lib·er·al
   [lib-er-uhl, lib-ruhl

1.favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.

2.( often initial capital letter ) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.

3.of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism.

4.favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.

5.favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.

6.of or pertaining to representational forms of government rather than aristocracies and monarchies.

con·serv·a·tive
   [kuhn-sur-vuh-tiv] Show IPA
–adjective
1. disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.

2. cautiously moderate or purposefully low: a conservative estimate.
3. traditional in style or manner; avoiding novelty or showiness: conservative suit.

4. ( often initial capital letter ) of or pertaining to the Conservative party.

5. ( initial capital letter ) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of Conservative Jews or Conservative judaism.

Do you understand now why everybody thinks you are a nitwit??? Look at the actual definitions.

Now modify your use of the words to match the definitions and we will all stop laughing at you behind your back for being slow.

Originally Posted by Brutus

why not try to put into words why freedom and liberty from government is liberal when liberals want more and more government.

Government isn't the problem. Direction and ideology is the problem.
Government is supposed by the people and for the people...if it ain't, then we're supposed to fix it. Truth of the matter is author P.J O'Rourke summed up the truth in his tome about Congress, "Parliament of Whores". We need to get rid of the prostitutes, and lock them up, and start over.

Originally Posted by Brutus

insane but perfectly liberal!!! the words obviously have had many different meanings at different times and places. What to do? Use the most common modern definition and so the most relevant and widely understood definition.

Jefferson saw history as a battle between big government liberal steatites versus those who wanted freedom and liberty from the state. Jefferson was a Republican; the statistic opposition at the time was called Federalist. Today Republicans stand for the same thing as Jefferson's Republicans and are called conservative, while today Democrats are called liberal steatites. Like Hitler (national socialist statist) and Stalin/Mao( communists liberal statist) they are opposed to freedom and liberty from the state.

To call Hitler and Stalin conservatives when they were the greatest statists in human history only confuses people who routinely use conservatism to refer to freedom and liberty from the state.

Do you see why we are positive the liberal will be slow? He can't even get past basic words, let alone understand conceptual matters.

Understand this:
Conservatism: The Politics Of Ignorance and Self-Interest

everything is there.

Originally Posted by daewoo

Yours is not the most common modern definition nor is it the most relevant and widely used. You seem to be the only person on the planet that actually understands your definition of the word "liberal".

Mine, on the other hand, you can look up in pretty much any dictionary.

actually every human being on earth knows BO is a liberal statist who, for example, wants statist Obamamcare, while every human being also knows conservative Republicans wants non statist capitalist health care.

Jefferson created America and its political parties around this concept 200 years ago. Where have you been that you can't grasp the most obvious basics?

,

Originally Posted by poet

Understand this:
Conservatism: The Politics Of Ignorance and Self-Interest

everything is there.

OF course if so why be so afraid to tell us why Jefferson was ignorant to create American around the concept freedom or liberty from governemnt?? What does your fear tell you about liberalism?

Originally Posted by poet

Government isn't the problem. Direction and ideology is the problem.
Government is supposed by the people and for the people...if it ain't, then we're supposed to fix it. Truth of the matter is author P.J O'Rourke summed up the truth in his tome about Congress, "Parliament of Whores". We need to get rid of the prostitutes, and lock them up, and start over.

PJ is very very conservative, i.e., very very against government and for freedom. He moved to NH, the live free or die state. Freedom is his ideology!! Its is not a problem. It is what the Revolution was fought for.