Taylor Marsh has posted the names of the Democrats who voted for the Stupak amendment (easy mneumonic).

She also quotes Ezra Klein.

Because of the limits placed on the exchanges, most of the participants will have some form of premium credit or affordable subsidy. That means most will be ineligible for abortion coverage. The idea that people are going to go out and purchase separate “abortion plans” is both cruel and laughable. If this amendment passes, it will mean that virtually all women with insurance through the exchange who find themselves in the unwanted and unexpected position of needing to terminate a pregnancy will not have coverage for the procedure. Abortion coverage will not be outlawed in this country. It will simply be tiered, reserved for those rich enough to afford insurance themselves or lucky enough to receive from their employers.

The stupak amendment will clearly have to go. Not as much a challenge doing so, in the Senate perhaps. About to be yet another controversy among progressives, as Taylor Marsh asserts this alone was enough reason for progressives to kill the bill.

By 5 votes...haha. 39 democrats desperately trying to save their job. I feel kinda bad for them. For comparison, social security passed something like 372 to 33. Medicare 313-115.

An all around fail job by the house. No one has read the bill no final report by the CBO. We'll just take our huge burden and add it to the sinking ship.

Originally Posted by Steeeeve

By 5 votes...haha. 39 democrats desperately trying to save their job. I feel kinda bad for them.

I don't feel bad for them.

For comparison, social security passed something like 372 to 33. Medicare 313-115.

From what I read, I don't see that it's on par with social security or Medicare either. Though for a different set of reasons than yourself. Plus, considering the crooks that now control Congress, and the outcome for so many millions of Americans, it's quite an achievement, and for this President.

An all around fail job by the house.

Well that's a ridiculous piece of bluster. I myself prefer more progressive legislation like H.R. 676. But in order for that to pass, likely there'd need to be major campaign finance reform.

No one has read the bill no final report by the CBO. We'll just take our huge burden and add it to the sinking ship.

The plan is projected to reduce the deficit. As you well know. You don't care about the sinking ship.

Plus, there are more economical ways to do this -- like Conyer's bill -- which you can't bring yourself to support either. All your side does is whine and complain without presenting any viable solution to the health care needs of so many of your fellow Americans.

Because you could care less if people are dying every day.

To wit, from November 5th:

Republicans are learning an unpleasant lesson this morning: The only thing worse than having no health-care reform plan is releasing a bad one, getting thrashed by CBO and making the House Democrats look good in comparison.

Late last night, the Congressional Budget Office released its initial analysis of the health-care reform plan that Republican Minority Leader John Boehner offered as a substitute to the Democratic legislation. CBO begins with the baseline estimate that 17 percent of legal, non-elderly residents won't have health-care insurance in 2010. In 2019, after 10 years of the Republican plan, CBO estimates that ...17 percent of legal, non-elderly residents won't have health-care insurance. The Republican alternative will have helped 3 million people secure coverage, which is barely keeping up with population growth. Compare that to the Democratic bill, which covers 36 million more people and cuts the uninsured population to 4 percent.

But maybe, you say, the Republican bill does a really good job cutting costs. According to CBO, the GOP's alternative will shave $68 billion off the deficit in the next 10 years. The Democrats, CBO says, will slice $104 billion off the deficit.

The Democratic bill, in other words, covers 12 times as many people and saves $36 billion more than the Republican plan. And amazingly, the Democratic bill has already been through three committees and a merger process. It's already been shown to interest groups and advocacy organizations and industry stakeholders. It's already made its compromises with reality. It's already been through the legislative sausage grinder. And yet it saves more money and covers more people than the blank-slate alternative proposed by John Boehner and the House Republicans. The Democrats, constrained by reality, produced a far better plan than Boehner, who was constrained solely by his political imagination and legislative skill.

This is a major embarrassment for the Republicans. It's one thing to keep your cards close to your chest. Republicans are in the minority, after all, and their plan stands no chance of passage. It's another to lay them out on the table and show everyone that you have no hand, and aren't even totally sure how to play the game. The Democratic plan isn't perfect, but in comparison, it's looking astonishingly good.Ezra Klein - Congressional Budget Office Thrashes Republican Health-Care Plan

Let us know if you come up with anything better, and that the American people approve of.

For now, though, looks like you've lost. Try not to be such a sore loser.

Rather than respond to the posts in your prior spam thread, you post a new spam thread. Well, answer these questions if you can ANTONIA.

Can anyone who is supporting socialized/government controlled healthcare show where this takeover is allowed in the constitution? NO? But who cares, right? As long as they can say it's good for us, that is all that matters.

But can they prove it's good for us in the final analysis? Not a chance. That's why they continue to spew the same lies and distortion of the reality of what this bill will accomplish and ignore every question which they can't honestly answer like these five.

1) For example, how can they say they are increasing healthcare services for the old and poor when they have cut FOUR HUNDRED PLUS MILLION DOLLARS from MEDICARE'S BUDGET?

2) And how can they say it will cost less than is currently being paid by consumers when the costs will be around 7,000$ a year for singles and as much as 14,000$ a year for families?

3) And how can they say it isn't a forced plan when people and employers will be penalized, as in FINED for not participating according to government regulatory requirements?

4) And if this legislation is so important NOW, and so critically needed today in order to ensure the health and welfare of americans TODAY, then why isn't it going to kick in until AFTER the 2012 election? Does Obama think we are so stupid that we can't see that he doesn't want the negative impact of this losers legislation to implode publicly for all to see until after he is hoping to be re-elected?

5) And most importantly for the sake of these inane threads that antonia continues to spam us with, my question to her is, is she so brain dead that she is unable to ask these same questions and to reconsider her position until she can get honest answers from the government proponents of this criminal and anti-american bill? I wont expect an answer of course since I understand antonia. But the argument needed to be framed for the rational members.

YouTube - House Passes Health Care Bill

Originally Posted by Archangel

Rather than respond to the posts in your prior spam thread, you post a new spam thread.

So I take it all your abortion threads are spam, according to your definition.

Well, answer these questions if you can ANTONIA.

That questions presumes, aside from your identity issues, that I'm an advocate of the bill. When you can respond to actual points I make, rather than challenge on the basis of partisan strawmen, perhaps we can then converse, OldSargeETAL.

Yawn.

You can also pick up some manners and stop breaking forum rules when you address others or reference them in posts.

Originally Posted by MarieAntoinette

From what I read, I don't see that it's on par with social security or Medicare either. Though for a different set of reasons than yourself. Plus, considering the crooks that now control Congress, and the outcome for so many millions of Americans, it's quite an achievement, and for this President.

Well considering you seem to like being a burden on society this would be a good thing for you.

Well that's a ridiculous piece of bluster. I myself prefer more progressive legislation like H.R. 676. But in order for that to pass, likely there'd need to be major campaign finance reform.

And significantly more people supporting it.

The plan is projected to reduce the deficit. As you well know. You don't care about the sinking ship.

As it stands right now the bill passed by the house is said to reduce the deficit by $200 billion over 10 years. No one is foolish enough to think this cost estimate will be right but the CBO does do a good job. Keep in mind this is not the final CBO projection and it does include a lot of uncertainty. More importantly will be the increase burden on everyone else. You think costs now are bad...ugh! Not only that, the public option is projected to cost more than your average health care plan...a total failure!

Plus, there are more economical ways to do this -- like Conyer's bill -- which you can't bring yourself to support either. All your side does is whine and complain without presenting any viable solution to the health care needs of so many of your fellow Americans.

Maybe because unemployment just hit over 10%. Perhaps we should worry about that before we start adding costs to the US taxpayer.

For now, though, looks like you've lost. Try not to be such a sore loser.

Single Payer lost which is good. Really our country has lost as we sink deeper and deeper thanks to people like yourself.

Still got the senate to go. Perhaps things can die there.

Originally Posted by Steeeeve

Well considering you seem to like being a burden on society this would be a good thing for you.

Exactly what is the meaning of this statement directed at me, personally? Because I don't believe we've ever met.

So why don't you come out from your cowardly, sniveling closet and say what you really mean or imagine.

And significantly more people supporting it.

Oh we're back to this bald-faced lie. 65% don't really support it. Really, I find it pathetically boring at this point.

As it stands right now the bill passed by the house is said to reduce the deficit by $200 billion over 10 years. No one is foolish enough to think this cost estimate will be right but the CBO does do a good job. Keep in mind this is not the final CBO projection and it does include a lot of uncertainty. More importantly will be the increase burden on everyone else. You think costs now are bad...ugh! Not only that, the public option is projected to cost more than your average health care plan...a total failure!

Strawmen.

Maybe because unemployment just hit over 10%. Perhaps we should worry about that before we start adding costs to the US taxpayer.

Well, looks unemployment will be getting a little higher. But those jobs have already been adding much burden to the American taxpayer.

Their employers should take their great capital and launch forth into new ventures that serve society, for a change.

Instead of ever whining for their corporate hand-out. While 45,000 of their fellow Americans die every year.

Originally Posted by MarieAntoinette

Instead of ever whining for their corporate hand-out. While 45,000 of their fellow Americans die every year.

Sorry you need evidence of cause and effect for this strawman. If you die of what ever how does the blame come to me, the company owner, who has nothing to do with you?

Originally Posted by MarieAntoinette

Exactly what is the meaning of this statement directed at me, personally? Because I don't believe we've ever met.

So why don't you come out from your cowardly, sniveling closet and say what you really mean or imagine.

How is this not clear? You want other people to pay for things you want to do. Whether it is getting arrested for disturbing people trying to do their jobs or wanting others to pay for sub-standard healthcare for you...you are a burden.

Oh we're back to this bald-faced lie. 65% don't really support it. Really, I find it pathetically boring at this point.

I agree, 65% don't support it...that is true. You need more than 50% to pass so how is that a lie?

54% oppose the health care reform bill: Health Care Reform - Rasmussen Reports

I'm not sure when your facts will be straight. Why should we even listen to you when you act like a drone?

Well, looks unemployment will be getting a little higher.

Good thing we'll have "rich" people paying for their every need...am I right!?!? High-five.

Their employers should take their great capital and launch forth into new ventures that serve society, for a change.

Ever wonder why they don't to that? Let's take one example, Intel. They are looking to build a few new fabs. Their CEO recently said it costs over a $1 billion more to put it here in the US.

"When looking where to build a new plant or fab from scratch, Otellini added the U.S. is the least attractive option.

"It's about a billion-dollar difference because of government incentives and tax rates, because [other countries] want those facilities in their backyards. The U.S. doesn't have that kind of industrial policy," he said. "

We have a policy of making it impossible to start a new venture and for it to be more profitable to spend money influencing congress than to try something new...health care reform will surely add to this.

Instead of ever whining for their corporate hand-out. While 45,000 of their fellow Americans die every year.

Now we have everyone whining for a corporate handout and a health insurance policy? Good job!

Originally Posted by Steeeeve

How is this not clear? You want other people to pay for things you want to do.

I am perfectly willing to pay my share in a society where we all bear responsibility and benefit from the positions of others.

You do not want to acknowledge how much you welch from this land and its people. Your industry ghouls are virtual vampires sucking the life blood of this great nation.

I agree, 65% don't support it...that is true. You need more than 50% to pass so how is that a lie?

When are you going to stop playing your second grade debate games?

54% oppose the health care reform bill:

Now you're creating another partisan strawman. Go back and read my posts comprehensively, and then come back for a discussion when you can actually indicate understanding of the other poster's positions.

In other words, grow up. Along with your other handles.

What I hope we'll be seeing in the news at this point is discussion among the more informed and thoughtful elements in the debate. For example, progressives in Congress and physicians from groups like PNHP. Those who see the bill as a means to a viable end, and those who do not. I'd also like to see a representative like Eric Massa in this discussion.

Too often, what the major media does is set up a dialogue between an intelligent individual and a extremely ignorant and dishonest sort.

I think it's time the nation stopped wasting its time listening to them, and focused on the finer nuances of issues and concerns. And how we can overcome these future challenges.

Originally Posted by MarieAntoinette

So I take it all your abortion threads are spam, according to your definition.

Really? How would you presume to know about my abortion debates unless you have been personally involved in them? It isn't as though I have been involved in one in the short time this persona of yours has been around! But antonia, that persona is another story and has opposed me many times in abortion debates. But here is a list of all the threads I have started here, only one is in the abortion forum. Is that what you call spamming an issue? http://www.4forums.com/political/sea...earchid=211586

That questions presumes, aside from your identity issues, that I'm an advocate of the bill. When you can respond to actual points I make, rather than challenge on the basis of partisan strawmen, perhaps we can then converse, OldSargeETAL.

You're kidding, right? You title the thread: House Passes Historic Health Care Reform And your very first line is: "Break out the champagne" And you want to imply that you're not an advocate of the bill? All I can say to that response is WOW!!! Your hubris is mind boggling...

Yawn.

You can also pick up some manners and stop breaking forum rules when you address others or reference them in posts.

I will show you some respect when you stop blindly spamming us with leftist propaganda and liberal talking points and actually respond to posts we write. That is what debate is about on adult forums. So respond to this post and prove you're more than what we have all labeled you as being.

Can anyone who is supporting socialized/government controlled healthcare show where this takeover is allowed in the constitution? NO? But who cares, right? As long as they can say it's good for us, that is all that matters.

But can they prove it's good for us in the final analysis? Not a chance. That's why they continue to spew the same lies and distortion of the reality of what this bill will accomplish and ignore every question which they can't honestly answer like these five.

1) For example, how can they say they are increasing healthcare services for the old and poor when they have cut FOUR HUNDRED PLUS MILLION DOLLARS from MEDICARE'S BUDGET?

2) And how can they say it will cost less than is currently being paid by consumers when the costs will be around 7,000$ a year for singles and as much as 14,000$ a year for families?

3) And how can they say it isn't a forced plan when people and employers will be penalized, as in FINED for not participating according to government regulatory requirements?

4) And if this legislation is so important NOW, and so critically needed today in order to ensure the health and welfare of americans TODAY, then why isn't it going to kick in until AFTER the 2012 election? Does Obama think we are so stupid that we can't see that he doesn't want the negative impact of this losers legislation to implode publicly for all to see until after he is hoping to be re-elected?

5) And most importantly for the sake of these inane threads that antonia continues to spam us with, my question to her is, is she so brain dead that she is unable to ask these same questions and to reconsider her position until she can get honest answers from the government proponents of this criminal and anti-american bill? I wont expect an answer of course since I understand antonia. But the argument needed to be framed for the rational members.

YouTube - House Passes Health Care Bill

Originally Posted by MarieAntoinette

I am perfectly willing to pay my share in a society where we all bear responsibility and benefit from the positions of others.

It doesn't appear so but you will be paying sooner or later.

You do not want to acknowledge how much you welch from this land and its people. Your industry ghouls are virtual vampires sucking the life blood of this great nation.

You tell them that as they invest less and less into the US thanks to current makers.

When are you going to stop playing your second grade debate games?

When will you realize that 65% is greater than 50%?

Now you're creating another partisan strawman.

How is that partisan? 54% disapprove. 55% think care will get worse and 52% think costs will go up. This is among likely voters I might add.

Originally Posted by MarieAntoinette

Too often, what the major media does is set up a dialogue between an intelligent individual and a extremely ignorant and dishonest sort.

I wish we could debate between two intelligent people here too but symbiote and I are not debating..I have you. Would you care to admit you were wrong about support for single payer and the public option?