Burglary victims attacked every 30 minutes

Doc Jones · #76 (**permalink**) 02-07-2010, 11:13 AM

Moving the goal posts Jo?

The topic is Burglary victims attacked every 30 minutes. Your current argument has nothing to do with the subject/topic.

COBHC · #77 (**permalink**) 02-07-2010, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo Bennett

The BCS, as the name suggests, is a survey. There is no proof that the alleged crimes happened, and regardless of whether it is reliable, it is only reasonable to make comparisons with other countries if they use the same counting methods and definitions.

Of course there isn't if you keep ignoring it and dismissing it as propaganda. The problem isn't that there is no evidence, the problem is that you just refuse to accept the evidence given because you don't agree with the sources.

Quote:

When we have a clear definition, e.g. homicide, the US rates are far higher than the UK.

It's also true that Homicide rates have dropped in DC since Heller vs. DC. Also, law is hardly enforced in the UK, especially in London.

The American Spectator : Three Strikes and You're ... in Like Flint

Quote:

The Home Office says offenses that may now be dealt with by a caution include burglary of a shop or office, threatening to kill, actual bodily harm, and possession of Class A drugs such as heroin or cocaine if police decide a caution would be the best approach.

Other crimes including common assault, threatening behavior, sex with an underage girl or boy, and car theft should normally be dealt with by a caution, if the offenders admit their guilt but have no criminal record.

UK Law enforcement is a joke. Not only are some crimes omitted, but some aren't even counted in the first place. Serious criminals get off with warnings.

Quote:

London and British crime rates have been increasing for years. Recently total crime rates for London have been estimated at about seven times those of New York for a slightly smaller population and some authorities suggest these figures have been minimized. England and Wales are now accounted by some estimates as the most dangerous places for crime in the developed world.

And this is the result of weak law enforcement.

Quote:

New York and London have populations of 8 million and 7 million respectively and comparable police budgets, though New York has about 40 percent more police actually on the beat. British papers retail many incidents of British police, rather than preventing crime, being kept busy "celebrating diversity" and prosecuting politically incorrect remarks and behavior (large amounts of money and court time have been spent by the Crown Prosecution Service on cases of children who have made politically incorrect remarks in school playground fights, for instance).

Stuff that is petty, or in some cases shouldn't even be illegal is taken more seriously than child molestation and assault. UK "justice" is almost completely inverted.

I suppose you'll just dismiss this as more propaganda.

gansao · #78 (**permalink**) 02-07-2010, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COBHC

Of course there isn't if you keep ignoring it and dismissing it as propaganda. The problem isn't that there is no evidence, the problem is that you just refuse to accept the evidence given because you don't agree with the sources.

It's also true that Homicide rates have dropped in DC since Heller vs. DC. Also, law is hardly enforced in the UK, especially in London.

The American Spectator : Three Strikes and You're ... in Like Flint

UK Law enforcement is a joke. Not only are some crimes omitted, but some aren't even counted in the first place. Serious criminals get off with warnings.

And this is the result of weak law enforcement.

Stuff that is petty, or in some cases shouldn't even be illegal is taken more seriously than child molestation and assault. UK "justice" is almost completely inverted.

I suppose you'll just dismiss this as more propaganda.

The articles you quote where not printed in the Guardian so according to British lefties they are just facist lies

Jo Bennett · #79 (**permalink**) 02-07-2010, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COBHC

I suppose you'll just dismiss this as more propaganda.

Since you provide nothing more than editorial with no documented evidence, it's pretty clear it IS just more propaganda. There is an element of truth, however, the police does spend time prosecuting non-crimes, but they've picked the wrong target in the article you've posted:
UK Indymedia - George Fox 6: Campus Activism at the Crossroads

Doc Jones · #80 (**permalink**) 02-07-2010, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo Bennett

Since you provide nothing more than editorial with no documented evidence, it's pretty clear it IS just more propaganda. There is an element of truth, however, the police does spend time prosecuting non-crimes, but they've picked the wrong target in the article you've posted:
UK Indymedia - George Fox 6: Campus Activism at the Crossroads

Geez Jo, you brown bagging today?

COBHC · #81 (**permalink**) 02-07-2010, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo Bennett

Since you provide nothing more than editorial with no documented evidence, it's pretty clear it IS just more propaganda.

It's not clearly propaganda. You've just dismissed every single link as being propaganda. I don't take it seriously at all, as it's quite obvious at this point that there's only a narrow range of sources that you accept. And you obviously question the honesty of any organization that you disagree with.

Tither · #82 (**permalink**) 02-07-2010, 07:58 PM

So Jo. You forced me to look for irrefutable sources so I did. Here is the Very Best face you can put on the UK's violent crime problem. Source lancashire.gov.uk
Table 1 Recorded Police Crime by Offence Group, 2008/09

Quote:

Violence against the person -- Rate(1) 2008/09 England and Wales = 16
Sexual offences = 1
Robbery = 1

Note.(1) Rate per 1,000 population

Our rate is per 100,000 so we need to multiply by 100 to get our equivalent rates.

UK Violence against persons. 16 times 100 = 1600 per 100,000

Our Department of Justice, (USDOJ) says The serious violent crimes included are rape, robbery, aggravated assault, and homicide.

But I am feeling kind so I'll just count the Violence against persons and call that a irrefutable source.

Rate per 100,000 UK = 1600
Crime in the United States Rate per 100,000 Inhabitants

Quote:

Violent crime 2008 = 454.5

Or is Lancashire part of those Lying Conservatives who are out to make you look bad?

Jo Bennett · #83 (**permalink**) 02-07-2010, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tither

So Jo. You forced me to look for irrefutable sources so I did. Here is the Very Best face you can put on the UK's violent crime problem. Source lancashire.gov.uk
Table 1 Recorded Police Crime by Offence Group, 2008/09

Our rate is per 100,000 so we need to multiply by 100 to get our equivalent rates.

UK Violence against persons. 16 times 100 = 1600 per 100,000

Our Department of Justice, (USDOJ) says The serious violent crimes included are rape, robbery, aggravated assault, and homicide.

But I am feeling kind so I'll just count the Violence against persons and call that a irrefutable source.

Rate per 100,000 UK = 1600
Crime in the United States Rate per 100,000 Inhabitants

Or is Lancashire part of those Lying Conservatives who are out to make you look bad?

The UK figures, if you care to look, include more than just aggravated assault in the assault stats, which makes a huge difference to the figures, and also includes things like child neglect that are of no relevance to this discussion. As I've said before, you're not comparing like with like. And that's before we consider other factors like population density, the influence of alcohol (around half of violent offences involve alcohol, having guns around would simply make the situation far more dangerous).

Doc Jones · #84 (**permalink**) 02-08-2010, 06:10 AM

[quote=Jo Bennett;389431]The UK figures, if you care to look, include more than just aggravated assault in the assault stats, which makes a huge difference to the figures, and also includes things like child neglect that are of no relevance to this discussion. As I've said before, you're not comparing like with like./QUOTE]

No? How many assaults are non-assaults?

Quote:

And that's before we consider other factors like population density, the influence of alcohol (around half of violent offences involve alcohol, having guns around would simply make the situation far more dangerous).

I do hope you were drunk when you posted this? I would hate to admit I had written something like this stone cold sober

zsu2357 · #85 (**permalink**) 02-08-2010, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tither

How about the UN for a source? How'd that be? However you may still think it is hard to compare with us, because the US is only in in ONE of these top 10. Burglary. If we weren't in one of the top 10 you would likely cry foul, saying that they did not include the U.S.. But alas, it did!

2000 International crimininal victimization report
That was in 2000 so maybe it got better. More recently your papers printed this.
Feb 6, 2007 Britain tops European crime league

20 Jan 2008 Violent youth crime up a third

But wait. Here it what Jo found unacceptable because it came from the Daily Mail yet again! 02 Jul 2009 UK most violent in Europe
And yet again. 02 Jul 2009 UK is violent crime capital of Europe -- The United Kingdom is the violent crime capital of Europe and has one of the highest rates of violence in the world, worse even than America, according to new research.
And again! UK 'has worst violent crime rate in Europe' -- Britain has a higher violent crime rate than the US and any country in Europe, according to the Conservative Party.

How does he do it? He got all of these papers to print what Jo calls a lie! He is totally amazing, no?

Likely you still want us to discount all of this too. I don't know. you tell me!

Wow Tither you do realize of course this shows our violent nature?

Penfold · #86 (**permalink**) 02-08-2010, 08:12 AM

[quote=Doc Jones;389447]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo Bennett

The UK figures, if you care to look, include more than just aggravated assault in the assault stats, which makes a huge difference to the figures, and also includes things like child neglect that are of no relevance to this discussion. As I've said before, you're not comparing like with like./QUOTE]

No? How many assaults are non-assaults? ...

In post 4 it was pointed out that 6014 "violent attacks" turned out to be 81 actual serious assaults. You do the maths (and the reading.)

Tither · #87 (**permalink**) 02-08-2010, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo Bennett

The UK figures, if you care to look, include more than just aggravated assault in the assault stats, which makes a huge difference to the figures, and also includes things like child neglect that are of no relevance to this discussion. As I've said before, you're not comparing like with like. And that's before we consider other factors like population density, the influence of alcohol (around half of violent offences involve alcohol, having guns around would simply make the situation far more dangerous).

First of all Jo, it is bad when you can't rely on Government statistics, in the first place, because they were found to be grossly cooking the books to make themselves look better. It took the UN Crime survey and the British Crime Survey (BCS)to flush out the fact that the Government was cooking the books and very grossly under reporting crime.

Now we have to rely on surveys that just give an indication of what is really happening! But it is a poll, not the actual facts!

One criticism of the BCS is that it does not include offenses such as murder and manslaughter, and or repeat offenses. How do we even know what is true, when nothing is reliable?

Tither · #88 (**permalink**) 02-08-2010, 08:57 AM

Geesh Penfold. So we know what we are talking about.

On the Technical data tab. Violence against the person

Quote:

In order to address the wide range of seriousness, police recorded violence against the person is separated into two subcategories: most serious violence against the person (including homicide, attempted murder and more serious wounding)

other violence against the person (including less serious wounding, threat or conspiracy to murder, harassment and assault without injury)

All categories also include attempts and threats to commit those offences (apart from attempted murder and threat/conspiracy to murder which are themselves separate categories) that may not involve injury.
The British Crime Survey (BCS) covers wounding, assault with minor injury and assault with no injury

BCS wounding includes offences that correspond to police recorded more serious wounding and part of less serious wounding

BCS assault with minor injury broadly corresponds to the remaining part of police recorded less serious wounding

BCS assault with no injury corresponds to police recorded assault without injury

Sexual offences
Police recorded sexual offences cover different types of unlawful sexual activity, including rape and sexual assault. Some of the offences do not necessarily involve violence: unlawful sexual intercourse with a person under 16 or with a mental disorder, for example. As with violence against the person, the range of seriousness is addressed by creating two subcategories:
most serious sexual crime (including rapes, sexual assaults, and sexual activity with children)

other sexual offences (including soliciting, exploitation of prostitution, and other unlawful sexual activity between consenting adults)

Because ofXthe small numbers of sexual offences picked up by face-to-face BCS interviews, results are too unreliable to report.

Robbery
As with violence against the person, police recorded robberies cover a wide range of seriousness from armed bank robberies to muggings for mobile phones or small amounts of money.

The BCS covers robberies against adults living in private households. However, as one of the rarer crimes, the number of robbery victims interviewed is too low to provide robust estimates for individual years; police statistics provide a better measure of trends. Any BCS figures relating to robbery in this chapter should be treated with cautionXbecause ofXthe low number of victims.

BCS violence type
Violent crime as measured by the BCS can alternatively be divided into four types, broadly based on the relationship between the victim and offender:
domestic violence – assaults and woundings that involve partners, ex-partners, other relatives or other household members

stranger violence – assaults and woundings in which the victim did not have any information about the offender(s), or did not know and had never seen the offender(s) before

acquaintance violence – assaults and woundings in which the victim knew one or more of the offenders, at least by sight

mugging – robbery, attempted robbery, and snatch theft from the person (snatch theft is not included in the overall violence measure)

Trends in police recorded violent crime can be very difficult to interpret, as they have been distorted by a number of factors. It is important to consider the following issues when interpreting trends:
police recorded crime data are subject to changes in the levels of public reporting of incidents
local policing activity and priorities affect the levels of reported and recorded violent crime
police recorded crime data are subject to changes in police recording practices, including those relating to national counting rules and crime recording standards

The National Crime Recording Standard (NCRS), introduced in April 2002, again resulted in increased recording of violent and sexual crimes particularly for less serious offences, as well as for some other offences. There was an estimated NCRS effect of 23 per cent on violence against the person offences in the first 12 months of implementation.

Tither · #89 (**permalink**) 02-08-2010, 09:11 AM

There is some other interesting tabs further down off of the overview tab. Please see firearm crime tabs.

Firearm crime graph
A good increase in firearm crime after what is called the Strictest gun control in the Western World, which took place in 1996. So tell us. Is this the way gun control is Posta Work?

Shouldn't the British residents naturally have expected it to actually go down, instead of up? Is that the way gun control Posta work?

I'm just saying!

Doc Jones · #90 (**permalink**) 02-08-2010, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tither

Geesh Penfold. So we know what we are talking about.

I have the pathetic little pudgy persona blocked. He simply ain't worth the time, my time at any rate

Quote:

On the Technical data tab. Violence against the person

Geez, they are worse than Mexico and people think it is bad over there!

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