Page 13 of 17 FirstFirst ... 31112131415 ... LastLast
Results 181 to 195 of 249

Thread: The Continual Appearance of the Slippery Slope Fallacy

  1. #181
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Fairview Park, Ohio
    Posts
    2,023
    Quote Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
    Looks like it's mostly good news when it comes to crime in England:
    NDS - News Distribution Service

    Here's a graph of crime trends in England:
    http://www.statistics.gov.uk/resourc...m119-28050.jpg
    Oh. I see we are going to do this after all!

    Yeah that is a good thing. Finally it is dropping after several years of increases. Crime cannot keep going up forever.

    Our homicide rate is 4 people per 100,000 higher than the Australia and the UK, but for overall victimization and violent crime the Australia and the UK is king.
    A quarter of English are victims of crime
    PEOPLE living in England and Wales are at greater risk of falling victim to crime than citizens of most other industrialised nations, according to a study published yesterday.
    Here is the UN report. Note that the US did not make the top 10 in any catagory except burglary, if you want to read the report.
    2000 International crimininal victimization report
    Serious Violent Crime Top 10
    Figure 5 Page 11 Selected contact crime (robbery, sexual assault and assault with force)

    1. Australia
    2. England & Wales
    3. Canada
    4. Scotland
    5. Finland
    6. Poland
    7. Northern Ireland
    8. Denmark
    9. Sweden
    10. France


    Top 10 in overall victimization Figure 6 Overall victimisation
    1. Australia
    2. England & Wales
    3. Netherlands
    4. Sweden
    5. Canada
    6. Scotland
    7. Denmark
    8. Poland
    9. Belgium
    10. France
    However the question one really needs to ask how did they reduce crime? This 2006 article give us a gimps on how some of this reduction was achieved.
    Three Strikes and You're ... in Like Flint
    Now Britain, far from adopting zero-tolerance, looks like it's adopting a policy of not prosecuting many serious crimes at all. ...... British police have now been told that instead of arresting a range of serious criminals, they can be let off with a caution.

    The Home Office says offenses that may now be dealt with by a caution include burglary of a shop or office, threatening to kill, actual bodily harm, and possession of Class A drugs such as heroin or cocaine if police decide a caution would be the best approach.

    Other crimes including common assault, threatening behavior, sex with an underage girl or boy, and car theft should normally be dealt with by a caution, if the offenders admit their guilt but have no criminal record.
    It is clear that the strictest gun control in the Western World did not play a part in this crime drop. Crime fighting is done by good police work and crime fighting equipment, and techniques. Not by trying to control the law-abiding!
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel." -- Patrick Henry

  2. #182
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    the Keystone State
    Posts
    2,186
    Quote Originally Posted by Tither View Post
    It is clear that the strictest gun control in the Western World did not play a part in this crime drop. Crime fighting is done by good police work and crime fighting equipment, and techniques. Not by trying to control the law-abiding!
    That fact will go right over the empty heads of the gun control freaks, wierdos and plain old nut jobs. To them its rather simple. Guns cause crime just as flies cause garbage. Doesn't matter its an island kingdom with zero guns. There are guns some where so they still have crime.
    The left lost the ability, use logic or know what truth is with the embrace of moral relativism. Thus you get moral equivalence between acts like detaining terrorists and cutting off heads of innocents.
    If lawmakers and anti-gun groups were serious about reducing or ending gun crimes, they would turn their wrath toward the criminals. As it is, their efforts are not the solution to gun crimes they are part of the problem.
    Even if you gave liberals the answers on an ethics exam, they’d fail.

  3. #183
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    4,366

    down the slippery sloap in a giant leap

    I see that dinigration of "reasonable" and "responsible" calls for appeasement went to the heart of the beast and what is now being called for is outright BANS just like countries that practice this particular form of Facism have already done with disastrous results. That was indeed a quick slide!

    Denial cannot be claimed at this point! The sublime thesis of appeasement and "compromise" by registration has reared it's ugly head of the ridiculous by exposing the true agenda.

    I declare the patient deceased as we await the upcoming ceremonies for the grieving kinfolk and well wishers of their deceased agenda...only by ignoring the Constitution and willfully ignoring rights and LAWS of this Republic could such a thing exist as have the other Nations which have ceeded their rights of persons to monarchist construction. Those who still persist in the "agenda" I wish them well, may their chains rest lightly on them...kiss the hand that feeds you and we will forget that you were ever our countrymen.

  4. #184
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Fairview Park, Ohio
    Posts
    2,023
    Quote Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
    Looks like it's mostly good news when it comes to crime in England:
    NDS - News Distribution Service
    Here's a graph of crime trends in England:
    http://www.statistics.gov.uk/resourc...m119-28050.jpg
    It took me a little time to weed our where the graph came from but finally I did. Seems you may have inadvertently, Uh, well, left out part of the story.

    I found the graph, but started clicking on the other tabs and found more info.
    Topic: Crime Trends
    Police recorded crime statistics provide a good measure of well-reported crimes, are an important indicator of police workload, and can be used for local crime pattern analysis. Recorded crime statistics provide the only measure of homicide and a more reliable measure of relatively rare crimes such as robbery. However, they do not include crimes that have not been reported to the police or incidents that the police decide not to record.
    Trends in crime Reported crime to police graph

    This shows that crimes reported to police is far grater than the British Crime Survey indicates.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel." -- Patrick Henry

  5. #185
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Fairview Park, Ohio
    Posts
    2,023
    Last edited by Tither; 05-16-2009 at 12:59 PM.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel." -- Patrick Henry

  6. #186
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    the Keystone State
    Posts
    2,186
    Bad Tither, you weren't supposed to go probing around. Just bend over and accept defeat at the hands of the all powerful gun grabber freaks. Now you let the cat out of the bag. One in four victims of violent crime. Not reporting crime, oh my. What will they think of next to cook the books so to speak. So the socialist paradise of gun control heaven turned out to be for criminals only. No hostile work environment. Prosecution of victims for fighting back. The best part is the prey are totally clueless.
    The left lost the ability, use logic or know what truth is with the embrace of moral relativism. Thus you get moral equivalence between acts like detaining terrorists and cutting off heads of innocents.
    If lawmakers and anti-gun groups were serious about reducing or ending gun crimes, they would turn their wrath toward the criminals. As it is, their efforts are not the solution to gun crimes they are part of the problem.
    Even if you gave liberals the answers on an ethics exam, they’d fail.

  7. #187
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    1,530
    Quote Originally Posted by Tither View Post
    It took me a little time to weed our where the graph came from but finally I did. Seems you may have inadvertently, Uh, well, left out part of the story.

    I found the graph, but started clicking on the other tabs and found more info.
    Topic: Crime Trends
    Police recorded crime statistics provide a good measure of well-reported crimes, are an important indicator of police workload, and can be used for local crime pattern analysis. Recorded crime statistics provide the only measure of homicide and a more reliable measure of relatively rare crimes such as robbery. However, they do not include crimes that have not been reported to the police or incidents that the police decide not to record.

    Trends in crime Reported crime to police graph

    This shows that crimes reported to police is far grater than the British Crime Survey indicates.
    The graph that I presented is not based on crimes recorded by the police. The graph is titled "Trends in all BCS Crime". BCS means British Crime Survey. It's a survey in which people are interviewed about their experiences with crime and thus includes crimes that are not reported to and recorded by the police.

    "For the crime types it covers, the BCS provides a more reliable measure of trends in crime as it has a consistent methodology and is unaffected by changes in levels of reporting to the police, recording practice or police activity."
    NDS - News Distribution Service
    "Indeed, not a word in the constitutional text even arguably supports the Court’s overwrought and novel description of the Second Amendment as 'elevat[ing] above all other interests' 'the right of law-abiding, responsible citizens to use arms in defense of hearth and home.' Ante,at 63."
    -Justice Stevens on the Heller ruling

  8. #188
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    1,530
    Quote Originally Posted by Tither View Post
    Oh. I see we are going to do this after all!

    Yeah that is a good thing. Finally it is dropping after several years of increases. Crime cannot keep going up forever.
    Huh? The graph shows that crime in the UK has generally been going down for over 10 years.
    http://www.statistics.gov.uk/resourc...m119-28050.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Tither View Post
    Our homicide rate is 4 people per 100,000 higher than the Australia and the UK, but for overall victimization and violent crime the Australia and the UK is king.
    I don't think the overall victimization rate tells us much about the relationship between guns and crime. People are still going to commit crimes whether or not they have guns just like people are still going to still get into car accidents whether or not they wear seat belts. The question is- do more guns increase the fatality rate of crime? Do guns increase the chances that a crime will turn deadly just as not wearing a seat belt increases the chances that a car accident will involve a fatality? How can it be explained that the US can have an overall lower crime rate yet a higher homicide rate? A much higher gun ownership rate than other developed nations could explain this- that although crime occurs less frequently in the US crime is more likely to involve guns in the US so someone is more likely to die. When I've questioned gun activists about this before I usually get a very vague response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tither View Post
    It is clear that the strictest gun control in the Western World did not play a part in this crime drop. Crime fighting is done by good police work and crime fighting equipment, and techniques. Not by trying to control the law-abiding!
    They already had such low rates of gun ownership so you wouldn't expect it to make much difference. However, if such laws were enacted in a nation with a very high gun ownership rate such as the US then the effect would be very obvious and dramatic (if the law did succeed in greatly reducing the gun ownership rate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tither View Post
    Crime fighting is done by good police work and crime fighting equipment, and techniques. Not by trying to control the law-abiding!
    False dichotomy
    "Indeed, not a word in the constitutional text even arguably supports the Court’s overwrought and novel description of the Second Amendment as 'elevat[ing] above all other interests' 'the right of law-abiding, responsible citizens to use arms in defense of hearth and home.' Ante,at 63."
    -Justice Stevens on the Heller ruling

  9. #189
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    the Keystone State
    Posts
    2,186
    Quote Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
    The graph that I presented is not based on crimes recorded by the police. The graph is titled "Trends in all BCS Crime". BCS means British Crime Survey. It's a survey in which people are interviewed about their experiences with crime and thus includes crimes that are not reported to and recorded by the police.

    "For the crime types it covers, the BCS provides a more reliable measure of trends in crime as it has a consistent methodology and is unaffected by changes in levels of reporting to the police, recording practice or police activity."
    NDS - News Distribution Service
    The old survey eh, and those surveyed are more often clueless than not. Wait that's right with one in 4 being a victim then they would be knowledgeable.

    Snake oil is still snake oil no matter how you slice the pie.
    The left lost the ability, use logic or know what truth is with the embrace of moral relativism. Thus you get moral equivalence between acts like detaining terrorists and cutting off heads of innocents.
    If lawmakers and anti-gun groups were serious about reducing or ending gun crimes, they would turn their wrath toward the criminals. As it is, their efforts are not the solution to gun crimes they are part of the problem.
    Even if you gave liberals the answers on an ethics exam, they’d fail.

  10. #190
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    the Keystone State
    Posts
    2,186
    Quote Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
    Huh? The graph shows that crime in the UK has generally been going down for over 10 years.
    http://www.statistics.gov.uk/resourc...m119-28050.jpg


    I don't think the overall victimization rate tells us much about the relationship between guns and crime. People are still going to commit crimes whether or not they have guns just like people are still going to still get into car accidents whether or not they wear seat belts. The question is- do more guns increase the fatality rate of crime? Do guns increase the chances that a crime will turn deadly just as not wearing a seat belt increases the chances that a car accident will involve a fatality? How can it be explained that the US can have an overall lower crime rate yet a higher homicide rate? A much higher gun ownership rate than other developed nations could explain this- that although crime occurs less frequently in the US crime is more likely to involve guns in the US so someone is more likely to die. When I've questioned gun activists about this before I usually get a very vague response.

    Or possible you ignore the obvious. "...although crime occurs less frequently in the US crime is more likely to involve guns in the US so someone is more likely to die." Talk about being vague. This remains to be shown. As in cause and effect rather than speculation on your part.

    They already had such low rates of gun ownership so you wouldn't expect it to make much difference. However, if such laws were enacted in a nation with a very high gun ownership rate such as the US then the effect would be very obvious and dramatic (if the law did succeed in greatly reducing the gun ownership rate).
    To borrow your words ...False dichotomy! If it were true in any fashion then gun free DC would be a haven of less crime rather than the murder capitol of the US. Stick to your socialist island rather than selling snake oil here.
    The left lost the ability, use logic or know what truth is with the embrace of moral relativism. Thus you get moral equivalence between acts like detaining terrorists and cutting off heads of innocents.
    If lawmakers and anti-gun groups were serious about reducing or ending gun crimes, they would turn their wrath toward the criminals. As it is, their efforts are not the solution to gun crimes they are part of the problem.
    Even if you gave liberals the answers on an ethics exam, they’d fail.

  11. #191
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    America, and damn proud of it!
    Posts
    3,576
    Galileo-

    It was a mistake for you to bring up the crime rates of the UK. There is more than enough evidence to show that the police have intentionally been playing games with crime statistics. A person can only be the victim of a crime five times a year before the police stop recording. That means even if you've been robbed or mugged 100 times in one year, the police still only put the first five times down next to your name, and then no more.

    British farmer Tony Martin was reportedly robbed 43 times by the same pair of career criminals before he finally decided enough was enough and opened fire on them.
    [QUOTE=Brady;363469]When I was a kid I did lots of things like playing with fire and torturing animals even though adults told me not to.[/QUOTE]
    The admission of a sociopathic serial killer.

    [QUOTE=Penfold;363126]No Personal attacks, insults, name calling, offensive generalizations, or labeling.[/QUOTE]
    He should practice what he preaches.

    The three duties of government: 1. Protect property 2. preserve contracts 3. provide for the rule of law.

  12. #192
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    4,366

    I should be able to post links now:

    BBC NEWS | UK | Police miscount serious violence

    A number of police forces in England and Wales have been undercounting some of the most serious violent crimes, the government has admitted.

    It means figures for serious violent crimes rose by 22% compared to last year - rather than showing a fall as previous figures appeared to indicate.

    The mistake happened when some crimes classed as "grievous bodily harm with intent" were recorded as less serious.

    Figures say overall crime is down, and ministers say these can be trusted.

    The government says it does not know how long the undercounting has been going on - leading to concerns that figures on violent crime may have been wrong for up to a decade.

    A former Home Office crime consultant told the BBC the government had been "hiding behind" its changes in the crime counting rules.

    Professor Marian Fitzgerald, a criminologist at the University of Kent's Crime and Justice Centre, said the long-term trend of increasing violent crime was now "catching up" with the government.

    Let's be clear, this isn't crime that wasn't being recorded or wasn't being reported or wasn't being dealt with

    Jacqui Smith, Home Secretary

    The Conservatives said the new figures "fatally undermined" government claims that violent crime was in decline.

    Shadow home secretary Dominic Grieve said: "They betray a government that is completely out of touch with what is going on, on our streets and in our communities."

  13. #193
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    4,366
    Crime in UK

    Even Dan Rather noticed England's problem long ago and observed their problems were much worse than ours.

    Yet Americans still enjoy a substantially lower rate of violent crime than England, without the "restraint on personal liberty" English governments have seen as necessary. Rather than permit individuals more scope to defend themselves, Prime Minister Tony Blair’s government plans to combat crime by extending those "restraints on personal liberty": removing the prohibition against double jeopardy so people can be tried twice for the same crime, making hearsay evidence admissible in court, and letting jurors know of a suspect’s previous crimes.

    This is a cautionary tale. America’s founders, like their English forebears, regarded personal security as first of the three primary rights of mankind. That was the main reason for including a right for individuals to be armed in the U.S. Constitution. Not everyone needs to avail himself or herself of that right. It is a dangerous right. But leaving personal protection to the police is also dangerous.

    The English government has effectively abolished the right of Englishmen, confirmed in their 1689 Bill of Rights, to "have arms for their defence," insisting upon a monopoly of force it can succeed in imposing only on law-abiding citizens. It has come perilously close to depriving its people of the ability to protect themselves at all, and the result is a more, not less, dangerous society. Despite the English tendency to decry America’s "vigilante values," English policy makers would do well to consider a return to these crucial common law values, which stood them so well in the past.

  14. #194
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Fairview Park, Ohio
    Posts
    2,023
    Quote Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
    Huh? The graph shows that crime in the UK has generally been going down for over 10 years.
    First of all, it has dropped some. That is good! However, we are offered this caveat in a 2008 article.
    How should we deal with gun crime?
    The publication of quarterly police recorded crime figures in January highlighted a general fall in crime, with a drop of some of 9% in overall recorded crime in the period concerned. While crime figures are notoriously unreliable, and should always be read with caution these seemed initially to be showing something positive. Yet these statistics were blemished by a 4% rise in gun crime and a 21% rise in drug offences.
    However we need to also note this.
    Are the courts too soft on young offenders?
    The number of under-18s in Britain committing violent offences jumped by more than a third between 2003 and 2006, according to The Sunday Telegraph’s statistics, based on reports from the Ministry of Justice.

    The figures also show that just over half of young offenders apprehended during this period were let off with a police caution, in which they admitted their offence but received no punishment, and that three-quarters of all violent crime suspects are freed on bail while awaiting crown court trials.
    So a lot of crimes are not recorded because of cautions. What kind of offenses deserve a caution?
    Three Strikes and You're ... in Like Flint
    The Home Office says offenses that may now be dealt with by a caution include burglary of a shop or office, threatening to kill, actual bodily harm, and possession of Class A drugs such as heroin or cocaine if police decide a caution would be the best approach.

    Other crimes including common assault, threatening behavior, sex with an underage girl or boy, and car theft should normally be dealt with by a caution, if the offenders admit their guilt but have no criminal record.
    Government accused over deactivated gun ban
    The Home Secretary has been accused of "papering over the cracks" on gun crime by proposing a ban on old, deactivated firearms which only feature in a small number of offences.

    Mr Davis said: "While we welcome any action, however overdue it may be, to tackle the scourge of gun crime the Government's own figures show that in 2005/06 there were only eight incidents where deactivated or reactivated weapons were used - just 0.04 per cent of gun offences.

    "We need sustained action to tackle the other 99.6 per cent of this serious problem, bearing in mind that gun violence has increased four-fold over the last 10 years."
    Feb 6, 2007 Britain tops European crime league
    Britain has one of the worst crime rates in Europe, a report said yesterday. It is the most burgled country in Europe, has the highest level of assaults and above average rates of car theft, robbery and pickpocketing. Only Ireland has a worse record.

    Risks of being assaulted were highest in the UK, Ireland, the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden and Denmark and lowest in Italy, Portugal, Hungary, Spain and France.
    So what does your graph actually mean? What stock can we actually put in it?
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel." -- Patrick Henry

  15. #195
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    4,366

    Jim Kouri, CPP is currently fifth vice-president of the National Association of Chief

    Jim Kouri, CPP: Justice Department: Gun Violence Falls 63%

    Justice Department: Gun Violence Falls 63%
    published By Jim Kouri, CPP
    MichNews.com
    Mar 17, 2005

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •