Court upholds Boseman adoption

Mosheh Thezion · #16 (**permalink**) 08-29-2009, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jitobear

I was thinking the same thing. I raised my son on my own until he was seven and was adopted by a gay man (we are now co-parenting). Yet he still managed to turn out to be Beyonce loving, deer-hunting, quarterback of the football team, smart-alec teenage boy.

Just shared this rant with him by the way, Mosheh. He was more than a little amused. Offered to kick some sense into you as well... lol

I have already said gay people can be wonderful parents.. to be sure.

but.. on the whole, considering the numbers... out of 10,000 children...

is it ok... for one of them to be influenced by their enviorment to become looser than they might normally of been?

Just answer me this..

Do you believe in a god, and do you think our behavior and personal code has meaning in determining our potential salvation and reaching heaven?

And then... how much is that one lost child worth?

just one.. out of 10,000... how much is he worth?

is it ok.. for our society to establish social norms, which promote concepts and behaviors as normal, which may potentially lead to that persons soul being condemmed?

is loose sex worth it?

Now of course, it wont always happen.

but we have a media promoting loose behavior..
and we have schools.. teaching kids that is perfectly normal.

And then we add gay adoptive parents...

is this not an over abundance of influence on a young fragile mind?

mind you.. As i oppose gay adoption, i also oppose our progressive media, and our progressive leaning school system.

-Mosheh Thezion

Mosheh Thezion · #17 (**permalink**) 08-29-2009, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

Dude.
You need to start actually trying to create ACTUAL COMMENTS in your approach instead of these vague "do you deny the power of parental influence" junk...

I believe in parental influence, in REAL areas of influence.
Parents who raise their kid to be Christian will often have a kid that adheres to Christianity.
Parents who raise their kid to be honest can have a kid that adheres to honesty.
Parents who raise their kid to be tolerant of blacks / gays / Jews / etc will often have a kid that is tolerant.

Therefore you cannot deny that parents who are tolerant of loose sexual behavior will often..(not always) but often... raise kids who think the same way.

THAT IS A SIMPLE FACT...

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

But in a lot of areas, "rubbing off" is something that is hit or miss.
Your whole "effeminate" rant is just plain nonsense.
By that logic, every child of a single mother would be effeminate.

i NEVER SAID it WOULD HAPPEN ALL THE TIME.. but is 1 in a 100 ok???

or is that one... a victim? of biased influence? from people who are not his biological parents?

just as he would be if adopted by a member of a biker gang!

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

There are some things that are just inherent to people's character, regardless of the way they are raised.
Take sexual orientation for example. By your logic, one might be tempted to think a child of gays would be more likely to be gay himself.

no sir... I NEVER SAID GAY PARENTS CAN TURN CHILDREN GAY... NO SIR..
I said their tolerant views of bi sexuality would influence an otherwise straight child to think... its ok.. to be tolerant as well... and as an adult that childhood influence can result is loose decisions, which may damm their souls.

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

I guess I can't be surprised you went there...
The answer to your question is no.
Sexual orientation is innate to a person. Not something that "rubs off" on kids.
The vast majority of GAYS have had parents who were straight! Duh!

I never said... gay parents make for gay children... i have only ever talked about the power of influence and attitudes... which can give a child a biased belief... that experimentation is ok.. that bisexuality is ok.. and that they dont need to feel bad about it... which will effect that childs entire life.

you cannot deny this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

But if you want some research to ignore...

They reported that offspring of lesbian mothers were no more likely than those of heterosexual mothers to describe themselves as feeling attracted to same-sex sexual partners. If they were attracted in this way, however, young adults with lesbian mothers were more likely to report that they would consider entering into a same-sex sexual relationship, and they were more likely to have actually participated in such a relationship. They were not, however, more likely to identify themselves as non-heterosexual (i.e., as lesbian, gay, or bisexual).

Children of Lesbian and Gay Parents

I never said they would be...
and if you want to talk about research... there is plenty of research to show that gay tendencies.. are the result of hormonal inbalances in the womb of the mother, which effect the nature of the child.. before birth..
i.e.. more or less testosterone in the womb.. can make boys be born effiminant, and girls to be born alittle more butch... that is fact..
in fact in the laboratory.. they can make males mice be born gay... literally by reducing testosterone and increasing estrogen in the womb.. which results in a pre-established hormonal programming for the mouse.

So, when they say gays are born that way... i believe it.. and they should be respected as people... and treated with respect..
but..

The straights... can still sin... and behave in loose ways if they are taught that it is ok... they may not be gay.. but they are horney and if they lack the morals and control habits of mind... they will sin..
history shows this time and time again..
lets loose.. without proper influence... they become like wild beasts.. and indulge in all manner of sins..

that is just fact.
and is something society must work on preventing... on the whole.

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

I seriously do not believe you know any gay people.
You claim to know a lesbian couple, and I would urge you to show them this comment from you...
Your comments and attempts to associate gay parenting with biker gangs and gay sex with murder and rape is disturbing and clearly demonstrative of a prejudiced mind.
A mind that doesn't understand the differences between what you admit is GOOD PARENTING, and biker gangs...
A mind that doesn't understand the differences between "gay sex", and murdering and raping young girls.

Ive had many gay friends ... and was in love with a lesbian for 7 years... so..

The point is... do you believe in a god?

and do you think that god will care about our behavior?

And if our behavior does not determine our salvation, then why would raping and killing be worse than abominations?
OUR BEHAVIOR EITHER MATTERS... OR IT DOESNT?

WHICH IS IT???

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

Oh wait. It DOES tell you that you should do that.
Perhaps if you actually want to think about reality some day, think about the fact that agnostic / atheist / secular people DO believe in living a moral life...
Don't approach the issue by thinking of how you fantasize about what that must mean, but rather recognize that agnostic / atheist / secular people are not running around killing / raping people with "nothing to fear" as you fantasize.

How can you say you promote a moral life.. if you promote and tolerate bi sexuality for all?

those two things dont go together... loose sexual practices is not moral.
a dah.

AND ACTUALLY.. YES... it is those who do not fear god, and who dont care... who do the murders... and who do the rapes.. because they live in a society ruled by progressive like you... who insult Jesus.. insult god.. insult the Bible... and promote tolerance of every loose sexual practice as if its good and wholesome..

do you think murderers... and rapists.. have morals high on their mind?

or do they ignore it all... just as you do?...

you may not want to admit it... but by denoucing god and salvation.. you are what makes those kinds of bad people develop in this world.. because in your fight to promote progressive freedom from God.. the side effect.. is that more and more people think god is a silly concept... and they have no fear of god when they kill and rape... because if they did.. they wouldnt do those things...

a dah...

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

Therein lies your problem.
Gays, atheists, agnostics, secular people DO NOT assume moral codes are false.
A lot of them think YOUR moral code is false, as you probably think their moral code is false.
But that just means we have DIFFERENT moral codes.

I see... so now... we.. the humans.. can deside what is right and wrong, and we can pick and choose for ourselves...

Dont tread on my version of morals.... right?

thats what NAMBLA says... is that ok with you?

Is NAMBLA just a misunderstood group with a different set of moral?

should they get our respect as well??

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

So being "gay" is something you "think gays should be free" regarding...
But being "bi" is NOT okay???

Can you give your position on the following issues?

1) Gay adoption? I think you've already made it clear you want this outlawed.
2) Gays serving in the military. Should gays be allowed to serve in the military?
Yes or No.
3) Gay employment protection. Should employers be able to fire homosexuals just for being gay?
4) Gay couple governmental recognition. Should the federal government provide gay couple registration (in the form of either civil unions or gay marriage) with all the rights and benefits associated with marriage?

1) no gay adoption... let them make their own babies...

2) Dont ask dont tell... because every time they do.. they get beat up... and they are safer if they say nothing.. whats the point of speaking out... and being open??? open... with a bunch of killers with guns?
And if they are gay.. then they must be organized into gay platoons for their own safety... but cannot be allowed to have sex with each other... except perhaps... OFF BASE.. WHEN ON LEAVE..

3) NO... they should not be able to fire anyone for being gay... UNLESS.. they are flamboyantly gay... or overly obvious to the point of disturbing the work enviorment... but if they act normal.. dress normal.. and otherwise do a good job and do not disturb others.. then.. no.. they should not be fired.

4) I promote on my campaign website.. clearly... gay couples should enjoy each and every government benefit... in equality with marriage... as provided by our secular government... BUT IT CAN NEVER BE CALLED MARRIAGE... its a civil union... which distinguishes the difference...
they should have every equal right... except... adoption.
for all the reasons ive stated..
please see.....> Mosheh Thezion's Exploratory Committee for U.S. Senate (R) | MARRIAGE

and i have a question for you..

Do you believe in a god? who will judge us for our behavior?

simple question.

-Mosheh Thezion

foundit66 · #18 (**permalink**) 08-29-2009, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

Therefore you cannot deny that parents who are tolerant of loose sexual behavior will often..(not always) but often... raise kids who think the same way.
THAT IS A SIMPLE FACT...

And as such, you have completely left the topic of "GAY RIGHTS DEBATES"...
"loose sexual behavior" has nothing to do with homosexuality, unless you are prejudicially trying to declare homosexuality as wrong in the first place...
But you aren't trying to do that, are you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

i NEVER SAID it WOULD HAPPEN ALL THE TIME.. but is 1 in a 100 ok???
or is that one... a victim? of biased influence? from people who are not his biological parents?

"1 in a 100" is some number you just made up that has absolutely no valid standing in any intelligent debate.

I have repeatedly pointed you to the facts. The research proving that children of gays are just as happy and healthy as children of straights.
You ignore it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

no sir... I NEVER SAID GAY PARENTS CAN TURN CHILDREN GAY... NO SIR..
I said their tolerant views of bi sexuality would influence an otherwise straight child to think... its ok.. to be tolerant as well... and as an adult that childhood influence can result is loose decisions, which may damm their souls.

Yeah.
There it is.
You're trying to put your religion into national policy, based on ad hoc assessments that are refuted by actual science...
Like I haven't seen that before...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

I never said... gay parents make for gay children... i have only ever talked about the power of influence and attitudes... which can give a child a biased belief... that experimentation is ok.. that bisexuality is ok.. and that they dont need to feel bad about it... which will effect that childs entire life.
you cannot deny this.

I whole-heartedly CAN deny this.
Gay parents have the same percentage of gay kids as straight parents.
Gay parents have the same percentage of straight kids as straight parents.

Straight implies ATTRACTION towards the opposite gender.
Gay implies ATTRACTION towards the same gender.

This whole thing where you think it magically makes kids "bisexual" based on "experimentation" is totally bogus.
SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS INNATE.
If a kid is born straight, that kid is straight.

The whole idea you are presenting is ridiculously laughable.
I am gay and if I had a hot girl in front of me who wanted to have sex with me, I would turn her down.
CAUSE I AM GAY.

And yet you think that if a kid is raised by gay parents, they will just go for what is available???
You seriously do not understand sexual orientation at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

I never said they would be...
and if you want to talk about research... there is plenty of research to show that gay tendencies.. are the result of hormonal inbalances in the womb of the mother, which effect the nature of the child.. before birth.. i.e.. more or less testosterone in the womb.. can make boys be born effiminant, and girls to be born alittle more butch... that is fact..
in fact in the laboratory.. they can make males mice be born gay... literally by reducing testosterone and increasing estrogen in the womb.. which results in a pre-established hormonal programming for the mouse.
So, when they say gays are born that way... i believe it..

I have to laugh at your presentation of evidence...
If such a thing makes a person gay, then that is PREDETERMINED BEFORE BIRTH...
Let that sink in.
Being raised by a GAY parent will not somehow make the kid act like he had some of that supposed "hormone imbalance"...

Now, with that said, I would be fascinated to see you present any of that research...
I don't expect you to, but I would be fascinated to see it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

The straights... can still sin... and behave in loose ways if they are taught that it is ok... they may not be gay.. but they are horney and if they lack the morals and control habits of mind... they will sin..
history shows this time and time again..

Man. It's amazing to watch you try to go from "tomatoes are red" to a conclusion of "that must mean bananas are red".

If people are taught that it's okay to have promiscuous sex, THAT will result in more people not adopting personal codes against promiscuous sex.
If people are taught that it's okay to be gay, that DOES NOT cause any straight people to go out and want to have sex with their own gender...

Straight people don't restrict themselves from gay sex JUST cause they think it's wrong.
They restrict themselves from gay sex CAUSE THEY HAVE NO INTEREST in having sex with the same gender.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

Ive had many gay friends ... and was in love with a lesbian for 7 years... so..

I sincerely doubt that.
Your attitude towards gays?
I would love to meet the gay person who would tolerate your approach...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

The point is... do you believe in a god?

Irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

and do you think that god will care about our behavior?

Irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

How can you say you promote a moral life.. if you promote and tolerate bi sexuality for all?

First of all, wrap your head around the fact that not all people SHARE YOUR MORALITY.
Some people don't think homosexuality or bisexuality are immoral at all.

And furthermore, nobody is "promoting" bisexuality for all.
And as for "tolerance", if you don't tolerate bisexuality then you are admitting to prejudice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

those two things dont go together... loose sexual practices is not moral.

What in the ...
Wait a second...
Are you of the mindset that just cause a person is bisexual, that automatically makes the person promiscuous?
Do you not understand that a person being bisexual does not prevent them from committing themselves to one person?

Is that the problem you have here?
a dah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

AND ACTUALLY.. YES... it is those who do not fear god, and who dont care... who do the murders... and who do the rapes.. because they live in a society ruled by progressive like you... who insult Jesus.. insult god.. insult the Bible... and promote tolerance of every loose sexual practice as if its good and wholesome..

Actually, Hitler USED A BELIEF in God in order to justify genocide of Jews.
Many people who talk about killing gays use BIBLE PASSAGES in order to justify their claims.
People who kill abortion doctors often claim a BIBLICAL mandate for their actions.

Your bible is FILLED with murder and genocide by people who supposedly believed in God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

you may not want to admit it... but by denoucing god and salvation.. you are what makes those kinds of bad people develop in this world.. because in your fight to promote progressive freedom from God.. the side effect.. is that more and more people think god is a silly concept... and they have no fear of god when they kill and rape... because if they did.. they wouldnt do those things...

I think you fail to recognize how a mindless adherence to religion, ignoring secular morality, has lead to a LONG history of religion (and often specifically Christians) committing vile acts in the name of their religion.
The crusades?
People thinking that God gave them America, so they wiped out Indians?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

I see... so now... we.. the humans.. can deside what is right and wrong, and we can pick and choose for ourselves...
Dont tread on my version of morals.... right?

I hate to break it to you, but in this country we have freedom of religion.
That means I have the freedom to NOT follow your ridiculous religion, if I so choose.

Get over it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

thats what NAMBLA says... is that ok with you?

Hitler used Christianity to espouse killing Jews.
Is that okay with you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

Is NAMBLA just a misunderstood group with a different set of moral?
should they get our respect as well??

No.
They HURT KIDS.
Secular morality acknowledges the evil of such actions.

And you know what else???
CHILD MOLESTATION IS ILLEGAL.
Homosexuality and bisexuality and promiscuity are not.
Can you comprehend the difference?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

1) no gay adoption... let them make their own babies...

Let's adopt that policy for all potential adoptive parents.
Ergo, NOBODY gets to adopt!

< end sarcasm >
You really don't think your arguments through at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

2) Dont ask dont tell... because every time they do.. they get beat up... and they are safer if they say nothing.. whats the point of speaking out... and being open??? open... with a bunch of killers with guns?

You seriously don't bother LOOKING AT REALITY in order to figure out what you want to THINK reality is, do you...
Actually, the military has become VERY accepting of homosexuality, amongst the troops. There are numerous stories of gays being out in the military, and their troop members don't care.

And furthermore, I urge you TO THINK about what you're saying...
Suppose somebody told you "we can't allow blacks in the military, cause the white troops would kill them"
Wouldn't that mean that the white military MURDERERS should be kicked out???

That's the rational conclusion.
But you want to cater to the murderer attitude.
What type of morality is that???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

4) I promote on my campaign website.. clearly... gay couples should enjoy each and every government benefit... in equality with marriage... as provided by our secular government... BUT IT CAN NEVER BE CALLED MARRIAGE... its a civil union... which distinguishes the difference...
they should have every equal right... except... adoption.
for all the reasons ive stated..

If somebody had demanded that interracial marriages be called "mixed unions", would that have been intelligent?
Or just plain racist?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

and i have a question for you..
Do you believe in a god? who will judge us for our behavior?
simple question.

I am agnostic.
I believe that if there is a god who will judge us for our behavior, including absurd things like being gay, then he has done an incredibly poor job of letting his people know his standards.
It is nonsensical to MAKE people gay, and then damn them to hades for being gay. That sounds like a cruel and sadistic god...

And no. The bible is not a legitimate resource for a variety of reasons.

foundit66 · #19 (**permalink**) 08-29-2009, 04:27 AM

Incidentally MT?
Regarding gays in the military?

Nearly one in four U.S. troops (23%) say they know for sure that someone in their unit is gay or lesbian, and of those 59% said they learned about the person's sexual orientation directly from the individual, a Zogby International poll of troops who served in Iraq and Afghanistan shows.

More than half (55%) of the troops who know a gay peer said the presence of gays or lesbians in their unit is well known by others. According to the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, service members are not allowed to say that they are gay.

....

The data also indicate that military attitudes about homosexuality have shifted. In the early 1990's, many senior officers argued that U.S. troops could not form bonds of trust with gays and lesbians, according to Dr. Aaron Belkin, Director of the Palm Center, who has written widely on the subject. According to the new Zogby data, however, nearly three in four troops (73%) say they are personally comfortable in the presence of gays and lesbians. Of the 20% who said they are uncomfortable around gays and lesbians, only 5% are "very" uncomfortable, while 15% are "somewhat" uncomfortable. Just two percent of troops said knowing that gays are not allowed to serve openly was an important reason in their decision to join the military.

Zogby International

Mosheh Thezion · #20 (**permalink**) 08-29-2009, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

And as such, you have completely left the topic of "GAY RIGHTS DEBATES"...
"loose sexual behavior" has nothing to do with homosexuality, unless you are prejudicially trying to declare homosexuality as wrong in the first place...
But you aren't trying to do that, are you?

"1 in a 100" is some number you just made up that has absolutely no valid standing in any intelligent debate.

I have repeatedly pointed you to the facts. The research proving that children of gays are just as happy and healthy as children of straights.
You ignore it...

Yeah.
There it is.
You're trying to put your religion into national policy, based on ad hoc assessments that are refuted by actual science...
Like I haven't seen that before...

I whole-heartedly CAN deny this.
Gay parents have the same percentage of gay kids as straight parents.
Gay parents have the same percentage of straight kids as straight parents.

Straight implies ATTRACTION towards the opposite gender.
Gay implies ATTRACTION towards the same gender.

This whole thing where you think it magically makes kids "bisexual" based on "experimentation" is totally bogus.
SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS INNATE.
If a kid is born straight, that kid is straight.

The whole idea you are presenting is ridiculously laughable.
I am gay and if I had a hot girl in front of me who wanted to have sex with me, I would turn her down.
CAUSE I AM GAY.

And yet you think that if a kid is raised by gay parents, they will just go for what is available???
You seriously do not understand sexual orientation at all.

I have to laugh at your presentation of evidence...
If such a thing makes a person gay, then that is PREDETERMINED BEFORE BIRTH...
Let that sink in.
Being raised by a GAY parent will not somehow make the kid act like he had some of that supposed "hormone imbalance"...

Now, with that said, I would be fascinated to see you present any of that research...
I don't expect you to, but I would be fascinated to see it...

Man. It's amazing to watch you try to go from "tomatoes are red" to a conclusion of "that must mean bananas are red".

If people are taught that it's okay to have promiscuous sex, THAT will result in more people not adopting personal codes against promiscuous sex.
If people are taught that it's okay to be gay, that DOES NOT cause any straight people to go out and want to have sex with their own gender...

Straight people don't restrict themselves from gay sex JUST cause they think it's wrong.
They restrict themselves from gay sex CAUSE THEY HAVE NO INTEREST in having sex with the same gender.

I sincerely doubt that.
Your attitude towards gays?
I would love to meet the gay person who would tolerate your approach...

Irrelevant.

Irrelevant.

First of all, wrap your head around the fact that not all people SHARE YOUR MORALITY.
Some people don't think homosexuality or bisexuality are immoral at all.

And furthermore, nobody is "promoting" bisexuality for all.
And as for "tolerance", if you don't tolerate bisexuality then you are admitting to prejudice.

What in the ...
Wait a second...
Are you of the mindset that just cause a person is bisexual, that automatically makes the person promiscuous?
Do you not understand that a person being bisexual does not prevent them from committing themselves to one person?

Is that the problem you have here?
a dah.

Actually, Hitler USED A BELIEF in God in order to justify genocide of Jews.
Many people who talk about killing gays use BIBLE PASSAGES in order to justify their claims.
People who kill abortion doctors often claim a BIBLICAL mandate for their actions.

Your bible is FILLED with murder and genocide by people who supposedly believed in God.

I think you fail to recognize how a mindless adherence to religion, ignoring secular morality, has lead to a LONG history of religion (and often specifically Christians) committing vile acts in the name of their religion.
The crusades?
People thinking that God gave them America, so they wiped out Indians?

I hate to break it to you, but in this country we have freedom of religion.
That means I have the freedom to NOT follow your ridiculous religion, if I so choose.

Get over it...

Hitler used Christianity to espouse killing Jews.
Is that okay with you?

No.
They HURT KIDS.
Secular morality acknowledges the evil of such actions.

And you know what else???
CHILD MOLESTATION IS ILLEGAL.
Homosexuality and bisexuality and promiscuity are not.
Can you comprehend the difference?

Let's adopt that policy for all potential adoptive parents.
Ergo, NOBODY gets to adopt!

< end sarcasm >
You really don't think your arguments through at all.

You seriously don't bother LOOKING AT REALITY in order to figure out what you want to THINK reality is, do you...
Actually, the military has become VERY accepting of homosexuality, amongst the troops. There are numerous stories of gays being out in the military, and their troop members don't care.

And furthermore, I urge you TO THINK about what you're saying...
Suppose somebody told you "we can't allow blacks in the military, cause the white troops would kill them"
Wouldn't that mean that the white military MURDERERS should be kicked out???

That's the rational conclusion.
But you want to cater to the murderer attitude.
What type of morality is that???

If somebody had demanded that interracial marriages be called "mixed unions", would that have been intelligent?
Or just plain racist?

I am agnostic.
I believe that if there is a god who will judge us for our behavior, including absurd things like being gay, then he has done an incredibly poor job of letting his people know his standards.
It is nonsensical to MAKE people gay, and then damn them to hades for being gay. That sounds like a cruel and sadistic god...

And no. The bible is not a legitimate resource for a variety of reasons.

god did let us know his standards... thats called religion!!!!!!

The fact is.. you dont like religion, because it says you shouldnt behave the way you like to behave.

you dont like the god presented in religion because he would want you to behave as decribed in those religions.

you dont like the morality of those religions, because you perfer to pick and choose your morality.

I have not been saying... gays are evil.

I have been saying... the promotion of loose sexual values... is evil.

it is not just gays... it is the media.. and now its schools...

and it is people like you... who think... its progressive.

is it progress?

or is it deviation?

sodom and gommorah was as free as you want america to be.

you admit... you think considerations of God.. are irrevelant.

And that shows your position.

You.. may as well adopt the Satanic bible as your doctrine.

REad it,.. you may find that it fits perfectly with your world view.

Its not about worshipping satan... its about being free from God.

And then recognise that everything you attempt to promote as progress... is inherently... satanic... because it promote the self.. self fullfillment.. and freedom from consideration and limits of moraility as proposed by religions of God.

If you dont see this, then im sorry.

ANYWAY... let boseman.. adopt that kid.

it seems fine..

but I will not change my views on gay adoption, and you fail to convince me, because you twist everything to fit your secular world view, and have avoided my questions and statements.

I wish you luck, and hope for your sake, that God will forgive you, if you ever meet him.... not for being gay... but for saying god is irrelevant.

God.. if he exists.. is not irrelevant... he is all that matters in the end.

-Mosheh Thezion

Mosheh Thezion · #21 (**permalink**) 08-29-2009, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

Incidentally MT?
Regarding gays in the military?

Nearly one in four U.S. troops (23%) say they know for sure that someone in their unit is gay or lesbian, and of those 59% said they learned about the person's sexual orientation directly from the individual, a Zogby International poll of troops who served in Iraq and Afghanistan shows.

More than half (55%) of the troops who know a gay peer said the presence of gays or lesbians in their unit is well known by others. According to the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, service members are not allowed to say that they are gay.

....

The data also indicate that military attitudes about homosexuality have shifted. In the early 1990's, many senior officers argued that U.S. troops could not form bonds of trust with gays and lesbians, according to Dr. Aaron Belkin, Director of the Palm Center, who has written widely on the subject. According to the new Zogby data, however, nearly three in four troops (73%) say they are personally comfortable in the presence of gays and lesbians. Of the 20% who said they are uncomfortable around gays and lesbians, only 5% are "very" uncomfortable, while 15% are "somewhat" uncomfortable. Just two percent of troops said knowing that gays are not allowed to serve openly was an important reason in their decision to join the military.

Zogby International

maybe so...

but if they dont ask, and dont tell... then no one gets hurt.

and if no one knows.. then no one can complain.

and so... no one gets abused.

speaking out.. coming out... does not bring any advantage to the gay soilder.... unless.. and except... if hes looking for another soilder to have sex with.

-Mosheh Thezion

jazyjason · #22 (**permalink**) 08-29-2009, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

maybe so...

but if they dont ask, and dont tell... then no one gets hurt.

and if no one knows.. then no one can complain.

and so... no one gets abused.

speaking out.. coming out... does not bring any advantage to the gay soilder.... unless.. and except... if hes looking for another soilder to have sex with.

-Mosheh Thezion

Your a XXXXX plain and simple. I WAS a gay soldier in the closet for over 2 and a half years. I did keep my mouth shut and went about my private dealings. I played the game and still lost. Because of a rumor another sailor and I were messing around I was beaten almost to death by 4 other Sailors on December 31st 2007.

I lost over 2 pints of blood and was at Portsmouth naval medical center for over a week. I kept quite. I didn't ask nor told. Hell I wasn't even fully out to MYSELF at that time! But the issue is this. Another gay sailor was murdered at Camp Pendalton and his body set on fire to cover the evidence. Then the murderer killed himself in his cell because he supposedly was gay as well!

Listen here and listen carefully. You do not know the poison and the sheer guilt you have living a double life especially in uniform. You have no idea the pressures you feel realizing that you cannot be open about one whom you love.

And speaking out and coming out does have it's advantages. Being truthful and upholding an honor code of honor courage and commitment that we sailors are sworn to uphold. You have no idea none whatsoever of the pain and stress it brings to gay and lesbian service members knowing they violate that code daily by lieing about who they are.

IF sailors were allowed to be out. The military would be FORCED to conduct training and education to deal with it. To deal with the homophobic atmosphere that has been bred in the service for so long. It would be forced to set guidelines and such that would protect gay and lesbian service members from being killed. You say that we have no restraint or that our only reason to be out is to have sex your wrong.

Its not all about sex despite what your ignorant mind portrays. It's about truth. About being free and being allowed to express ourselves with honor and discipline. I cannot tell you how many gay and lesbians show restraint in the showers or bunks or what have you because we are professional. Because we view our fellow sailors like family. Not to mention the UCMJ has STRICT laws on fraternization. Which could easily be updated for rules and guidelines for gay and lesbian sailors.

SO DO NOT even try and think you know one shred of fact on this issue because you have not lived nor suffered and almost died under the failed policy of don't ask don't tell. And until it's changed more innocent sailors will die at the hands of misguided ignorant people.

jitobear · #23 (**permalink**) 08-29-2009, 08:32 AM

Mosheh, I don't buy into your religious gibberish. I am a devout agnostic.

Homophobia is repulsive to me. No better than racism, anti-semiticism, or sexism. It is not moral. It is hate. It is cruel. It is abusive. It hurts people. I KNOW it is wrong. I will not hold a supposed higher power to lower standards than I hold myself. And you and your ilk can stay well they hell away from me and my family.

Two other points:
No matter what environment you are in, you will be influenced. You just can't admit to your "freedom" loving self that you think anyone should be able to be influenced in a way you personally don't find morally acceptable.

I think sex is normal and healthy and the sex lives of consenting adults is none of my business whether they have 0 partners in their life or 1000.

jazyjason · #24 (**permalink**) 08-29-2009, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jitobear

Mosheh, I don't buy into your religious gibberish. I am a devout agnostic.

Homophobia is repulsive to me. No better than racism, anti-semiticism, or sexism. It is not moral. It is hate. It is cruel. It is abusive. It hurts people. I KNOW it is wrong. I will not hold a supposed higher power to lower standards than I hold myself. And you and your ilk can stay well they hell away from me and my family.

Two other points:
No matter what environment you are in, you will be influenced. You just can't admit to your "freedom" loving self that you think anyone should be able to be influenced in a way you personally don't find morally acceptable.

I think sex is normal and healthy and the sex lives of consenting adults is none of my business whether they have 0 partners in their life or 1000.

Well said Jito. He really pushed my buttons and touched a nerve with my last post if you couldn't tell.

foundit66 · #25 (**permalink**) 08-29-2009, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

maybe so...

See, that's the funny thing about all this.
I show you reality.
You don't want to accept it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

but if they dont ask, and dont tell... then no one gets hurt.

If we had a community which was supposedly antagonistic to Christians in this nation, would you think it wise or feasible to tell Christians to hide their identity and restrict themselves religiously, otherwise they might "get hurt"???

The real option here is to make sure that violence against fellow military members is prevented, and bigotry is not allowed.
Your method caters to the potential killer / attacker bigot, and that's just absurd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

and if no one knows.. then no one can complain.
and so... no one gets abused.

Okay. That may be how it works in your world...
In the real world, people who attack others because they are gay or black or Jewish or Christian GET ARRESTED.
We don't ask the person to restrict themselves pointlessly (beyond catering to bigotry) ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

speaking out.. coming out... does not bring any advantage to the gay soilder.... unless.. and except... if hes looking for another soilder to have sex with.

Are you for real?
There are PLENTY of straight people who broadcast their sexuality all the time, with absolutely no interest in "looking for another soldier to have sex with"...
This may be a whacky concept for you to comprehend, BUT PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THEIR LIVES.
People talk about their wives, or their husbands, or their kids, or whatever...
That's what people do.

foundit66 · #26 (**permalink**) 08-29-2009, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

god did let us know his standards... thats called religion!!!!!!

Really?
So god hates shellfish?
So god hates fields with more than one type of crop planted in it?
So god hates polyfabric clothing?

So the Biblical god has a standard for his followers to commit genocide?
So the Biblical god has a standard for his followers to practice slavery?
So the Biblical god has a standard for his followers to practice misogyny?

No.
PEOPLE CLAIMED to be speaking to God, who talked about their personal standards.
If you think religion has any real conduit to God, then you are fooling yourself.
Most religions TELL YOU what to believe about God, and then insist that for you to "feel God's presence", you have to THINK IDENTICALLY to what they tell you that God wants.
If God talks to all of us and all of us talk to God, shouldn't we ALL be able to do that independently of some pastor asking us for our money?

Would you like to talk about a long list of contradictions (for a supposedly omniscient God) that exists in the Bible alone?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

The fact is.. you dont like religion, because it says you shouldnt behave the way you like to behave.

You have a serious problem whereby you assume people's opinions, just because it's convenient for YOUR world view to believe that somebody else has that opinion.
You are thoroughly wrong. And I have no doubt you lack the facilities, so that when I tell you that I DO NOT have that opinion, you will be incapable of admitting to yourself that what you said is not my opinion...

I find "religion" to be a lot of people, who have no real clue about God, putting out self-gratifying and self-serving lies in order to gain money, power, or influence over others.
If somebody were to come out today and say that they heard God from a burning bush, that person would be fitted with a straight-jacket.
However, somebody tells you that happened in the past and you "believe".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

you dont like the morality of those religions, because you perfer to pick and choose your morality.

I prefer to think for myself.
You should try it sometime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

I have not been saying... gays are evil.
I have been saying... the promotion of loose sexual values... is evil.
it is not just gays... it is the media.. and now its schools...
and it is people like you... who think... its progressive.
is it progress?
or is it deviation?

So basically you're saying it's "not evil" to be gay.
It's evil for gays to THINK it's okay to be gay.
Gays should simply hate themselves for being gay, which results in depression, suicide, etc, etc...

The real problem is that people are realizing, like with MANY religious standards before it, that the standard is nonsense.
The bible has a standard of misogyny. It says that women must be inferior to men, and even that women cannot be teachers.
We, as a society and even in most Christian cultures, have long ago rejected that ridiculous standard.

The bible has no problem with slavery. A fine standard for a "loving" God.
But again, people have rejected this standard of tolerating such a grotesquely inhumane practice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

sodom and gommorah was as free as you want america to be.

"sodom and gommorah" is a myth.
An absurd story that has been re-interpreted over the years to pretend to be about homosexuality, when the original is actually about intolerance of strangers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

you admit... you think considerations of God.. are irrevelant.

I think you misunderstand.
I've known people in relationships who, without any real feedback from the other person, fantasize about how they think the other person doesn't like this or likes that and they work themselves up over nothing.
Even worse, they listen to other busy-bodies who spread rumors about the relationship, to their own selfish ends.

RELIGION does that a lot...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

You.. may as well adopt the Satanic bible as your doctrine.

Dude?
Seriously.
You need to cut down on the melodrama.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

REad it,.. you may find that it fits perfectly with your world view.

The problem for you is that I HAVE read the bible.
Cover to cover.
A friend recommended I do it in order to more fully understand why the condemnation of Christians was absolute cow manure.
It was really eye-opening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

And then recognise that everything you attempt to promote as progress... is inherently... satanic... because it promote the self.. self fullfillment.. and freedom from consideration and limits of moraility as proposed by religions of God.

Look.
I realize that may sound great in your head? Labelling my position as "Satanic"?
But to others, it reveals you as a raving nutter.

I promote equality. I promote justice.
You promote an oppressive religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

but I will not change my views on gay adoption, and you fail to convince me, because you twist everything to fit your secular world view, and have avoided my questions and statements.

I never had any illusions about changing your views on gay adoption.
You are clearly in the minority on the issue. ONLY ONE state forbids any gay person from adoption.

You refuse to approach this from the interests of the child.
You have YOUR interests, based on your religion, which you super-impose on the situation. When science refutes your outdated beliefs, you refuse to accept it.

Quite frankly, I think it exemplifies the selfishness of religion. Children are forced to go without parents because of your religious beliefs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

I wish you luck, and hope for your sake, that God will forgive you, if you ever meet him.... not for being gay... but for saying god is irrelevant.
God.. if he exists.. is not irrelevant... he is all that matters in the end.

The funny thing about reading your bible is I can tell when people ignore the words of Jesus. And too often, too many self-proclaimed Christians do exactly that.

Jesus gave a story about what would happen on the last day.
He talked about God judging people based on how they helped others.
And when you insist that gays shouldn't be able to adopt, forcing MORE children into the orphanage?
You are hurting others.

I am interested in HELPING others.
By allowing ALL good parents the capability to adopt.
It is not God's judgment for me that you should be concerned about...

Mosheh Thezion · #27 (**permalink**) 08-29-2009, 05:25 PM

Let me see if I can clarify my views...

1) I would never support or promote any legislation which attempts to prevent people from being free to be gay...

2) I would never promote or support any legislation which will attempt to allow employers to fire people simply because they are gay.. as long as they are not flambyant about it.

3) I support dont ask dont tell for the protection of those gay soilders...

4) if we repeal dont ask dont tell, then we must organize all gay soilders into their own platoons, which will allow them to do their job, and protect them from abuse. because allowing one gay man to work around 20 who are not, historically... puts the one man in danger..
AND WE CANNOT IMAGINE THAT WE CAN PREVENT VIOLENCE AMOUNGST MEN... SIMPLY BY PASSING A LAW OR RULE... men have been beating each other up for 30,000 years and more... for any reason they can come up with.
THE PROBLEM.. is men are naturally violent.. and fight..
and the only protection for a gay soilder would be to have the organized back up of an entire platoon... instead of being alone.

5) I would support adoptin in this boseman case, since there was a pre-existing relationship of familiarity... but I would appose gay couple adopting random kids because of the long term effects of influence on impressionable minds... and since the issue is how to reduce women from giving up their children to adoption.

6) I also appose the schools from promoting that all forms of sexual behavior is normal for anyone... because its not.

the schools should teach the facts.. 13% of humans.. are gay... its a fact, and they must not be abused, but just because we aCCEPT and allow and tolerate others who choose to be gay, that does not mean that the other 85% should be tolerated to be Bi.. because the history of the world shows that without a basic moral code... the people in general will adopt very loose sexual standards,... and become pagan..
in pagan europe... in rome.. they had sex with their children... and it was normal... in amsterdam today... it is legal to have sex with children.

it is standards of morality which tells people, and trains them to control themselves in the face of loose sexual opportunity... and while we cannot pass laws to prevent people from indulging in sexual sin... we should promote clean and moral behavior as the norm..
We should not promote loose 'anything goes' behavior as the norm.

because if we promote loose 'anything goes' concepts, then that is what we will end up with... and in time, our society will have no standards at all.

it will progress.... and sadly.. Progressives are trying to convert us into amsterdam... where soon... in maybe 50 years... groups like NAMBLA will be set free to have sex with kids, if those kids... are agreeable to it.
AND SADLY.. BY TEACHING 10 YEAR OLDS... THAT LOOSE SEXUAL ACTIVITY IS OK... WILL IN TIME... LEAD TO THAT LOOSE SEXUAL ACTIVITY.. WHEN THEY BECOME PARENTS... and their kids...are taught an ALL NEW LEVEL OF THE PROGRESSIVE AGENDA..

AND THAT PROGRESSIVE AGENDA... IS freedom from morality.

you may say its my moraiity.. but if you believe you can pick and choose your own morality... then you must recgonize that with each new generation... those standards of morality... progress.. and progress.. until we will have sodom and gommorah.

7) i also oppose the media.. and its general push and promotion of loose sexual behavior... which only makes people want to live those lives of sin.

advertising works... and if we advertise wild loose sex... it serves as a form of social pressure... which over time... changes social norms.

8) if people... are naturally born gay... or bi...

THEN THERE SHOULD BE NO PROBLEM WITH TEACHING MORALITY, and clean self control of sexual tendencies as the common social norm...
because teaching such will not prevent gays from being gay...
and will not outlaw sin..

and as such... there is no need to promote loose sexual standards.

And instead there is every reason to promote morality .. and with it.. tolerance, but tolerance does not mean complete and open acceptance.

We can tolerate things.. without needing to think its wholesome and good.

thats my view... and im sticking to it.

-Mosheh Thezion

jazyjason · #28 (**permalink**) 08-29-2009, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

3) I support dont ask dont tell for the protection of those gay soilders...

4) if we repeal dont ask dont tell, then we must organize all gay soilders into their own platoons, which will allow them to do their job, and protect them from abuse. because allowing one gay man to work around 20 who are not, historically... puts the one man in danger..
AND WE CANNOT IMAGINE THAT WE CAN PREVENT VIOLENCE AMOUNGST MEN... SIMPLY BY PASSING A LAW OR RULE... men have been beating each other up for 30,000 years and more... for any reason they can come up with.
THE PROBLEM.. is men are naturally violent.. and fight..
and the only protection for a gay soilder would be to have the organized back up of an entire platoon... instead of being alone.

Sorry but your dead wrong here. We do not have to organize gay soldiers into separate units at all because they have been dieing alongside their strait service members since valley forge. Why didn't we have separate units when women were integrated into the military?

Because it was not needed.Sure you cannot protect all peoples from violence. But that violence stems from a homophobic environment that has been bred in the military! I have lived it and I have seen it and have been one of it's many many victims.

Let me make this perfectly clear to you. A Gay soldiers blood runs just as red and flows just as much as their strait counterparts... And gays and lesbians have been dieing for your freedom since day one.

Mosheh Thezion · #29 (**permalink**) 08-29-2009, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazyjason

Sorry but your dead wrong here. We do not have to organize gay soldiers into separate units at all because they have been dieing alongside their strait service members since valley forge. Why didn't we have separate units when women were integrated into the military?

Because it was not needed.Sure you cannot protect all peoples from violence. But that violence stems from a homophobic environment that has been bred in the military! I have lived it and I have seen it and have been one of it's many many victims.

Let me make this perfectly clear to you. A Gay soldiers blood runs just as red and flows just as much as their strait counterparts... And gays and lesbians have been dieing for your freedom since day one.

i agree... but did that protect you?

can we honestly say... we can train away homophobia?

do you think social training can do so?

Do you think the solution is to get all those soilders to think gay sex is cool and normal?
Do you think the only solution is to get all society to think gay sex is cool and normal?

isnt that what satan wants?

It is one thing to promote tolerance and understanding.. it is another to re-program all of soceity into new social norms, which fit perfectly with the agenda of the devil.

I support tolerance.. but not the adoption of satanism, which would mean the promotion that gay sex is wonderful and normal..

its not normal... because.. its not 100%..

its only 13%... at 13%.. its not the norm..

by definition... it is natural... yes... it happens... yes.. indeed.
it is possible... yes indeed..

WE SHOULD TOLERATE IT... and accept it as 13% of normalcy...

but not at 100% normalcy... because its just 13%.

if we promoted the science.. the facts.. of 13%...

that,,, will breed tolerance and acceptance as a fact.

promoting at as totally normal and equal.. is just a lie.

sorry.

I favor protecting the minority from the majority... but not forcing the majority to adopt the ways of the minority as normal for all.

besides... the spartans.. proved.. an all gay squad... can be very effective soilders....

while having one open gay man in a unit of non gay men... will create tension, and reduce conhesion.

and results in .. sometimes.. violence.. as you know.

-Mosheh Thezion

foundit66 · #30 (**permalink**) 08-29-2009, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

Let me see if I can clarify my views...
1) I would never support or promote any legislation which attempts to prevent people from being free to be gay...

This post is nothing more than you repeating yourself.
There is no need to "clarify" your views, cause nobody is confused about them.

And Honestly?
I get tired of hearing people trying to throwing "free to be gay" out there like it's some type of important thing.

THINK about this for a couple minutes...
The KKK ALSO NEVER supported or promoted any legislation which attempted to prevent people from being free to be black.
The KKK ALSO NEVER supported or promoted any legislation which attempted to prevent people from being free to be black.
The KKK ALSO NEVER supported or promoted any legislation which attempted to prevent people from being free to be black.

So, realistically?
Your statement means absolutely nothing about prejudice.
People can "never support or promote any legislation which attempts to prevent people from being free to be gay" and STILL be prejudiced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

2) I would never promote or support any legislation which will attempt to allow employers to fire people simply because they are gay.. as long as they are not flambyant about it.

Actually, the real issue is that unless states ADOPT legislation that PREVENTS employers from firing people based on their sexual orientation, then it is entirely legal to fire somebody because they are gay.

By default, with no legislation on the books?
It is legal to fire somebody because they are gay.
There is no such thing as "legislation which will attempt to allow employers to fire people simply because they are gay".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

3) I support dont ask dont tell for the protection of those gay soilders...

That's like insisting that Christians have to hide their Christianity in order not to be fed to the Roman lions.
The rational response would be to fight the Roman practice.

But instead, you insist the victims have to hide...

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

4) if we repeal dont ask dont tell, then we must organize all gay soilders into their own platoons, which will allow them to do their job, and protect them from abuse. because allowing one gay man to work around 20 who are not, historically... puts the one man in danger..

I have already addressed this.
I presented the poll refuting your imagination.
You refused to acknowledge the real scenario we have in today's society.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

AND WE CANNOT IMAGINE THAT WE CAN PREVENT VIOLENCE AMOUNGST MEN... SIMPLY BY PASSING A LAW OR RULE... men have been beating each other up for 30,000 years and more... for any reason they can come up with.

Okay.
I acknowledge that we cannot prevent 100% of the violence.
We can't do that in our NON-MILITARY society.
But in our REAL society, it would be nonsensical to insist that we should sequester blacks or Jews or gays into a separate society...

NO.
The obvious solution is to ENFORCE THE LAWS against the bigoted murderers, attackers, etc.
THAT is how we do things in a civilized society.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

5) I would support adoptin in this boseman case, since there was a pre-existing relationship of familiarity... but I would appose gay couple adopting random kids because of the long term effects of influence on impressionable minds... and since the issue is how to reduce women from giving up their children to adoption.

No.
This issue is "GAY RIGHTS DEBATES".
Even if we were to reduce how many women give up their children?
That would still NEVER JUSTIFY preventing gays from adopting.

Look.
In reality, your approach is painfully transparent!
You want to reduce the number of orphans in order to make your "don't let gays adopt" mentality more feasible.
THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE CHILD say that we should let the BEST PARENTS ADOPT.
YOU want to IGNORE the research on the capabilities of gay parents, and implement your RELIGIOUS beliefs.

There is no confusion on this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

6) I also appose the schools from promoting that all forms of sexual behavior is normal for anyone... because its not.
the schools should teach the facts.. 13% of humans.. are gay... its a fact, and they must not be abused, but just because we aCCEPT and allow and tolerate others who choose to be gay, that does not mean that the other 85% should be tolerated to be Bi.. because the history of the world shows that without a basic moral code... the people in general will adopt very loose sexual standards,... and become pagan..

We've already been over this.
If a person is straight, THEY ARE STRAIGHT.
Straight people don't abstain from gay sex just cause they think it's immoral.
MOST Americans think homosexuality is an acceptable alternative lifestyle.
57% think that.
Tolerance for Gay Rights at High-Water Mark

Does that mean that 57% of Americans are out there having gay sex if they are horny cause it's "easy"?
NO!

You can't wrap your head around the fact that people are straight because they are attracted to the opposite gender, and it typically involves personal distaste for sex with the same gender.
Likewise, gays are gay because they are attracted to the same gender, and it typically involves personal distaste for sex with the opposite gender.

We don't just hump what is convenient!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

in amsterdam today... it is legal to have sex with children.

You are seriously clueless.
It is repugnant to watch such ignorance parade itself around.
Pedophilia IS STILL ILLEGAL there.
Dutch pedophiles push for legal sex - World - theage.com.au
Pedophiles there are trying to change the laws, but MOST PEOPLE OBJECT to their attempts.

Seriously. I think one of the BIGGEST problems with religion is that it allows too many people like you to ASSUME you know what's going on, and it prevents you from LEARNING THE FACTS about the world around you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

it is standards of morality which tells people, and trains them to control themselves in the face of loose sexual opportunity... and while we cannot pass laws to prevent people from indulging in sexual sin... we should promote clean and moral behavior as the norm..
We should not promote loose 'anything goes' behavior as the norm.

I agree our schools should talk about the dangers of promiscuity.
But being gay is your PERSONAL RELIGIOUS issue, and you should not presume to make others adhere to your religious beliefs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

because if we promote loose 'anything goes' concepts, then that is what we will end up with... and in time, our society will have no standards at all.

I really hate stupid slippery slope arguments.
Amsterdam DOES NOT have legalized pedophilia.
We have MANY countries with legal gay marriage, and NONE of them are of the attitude of "anything goes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

it will progress.... and sadly.. Progressives are trying to convert us into amsterdam... where soon... in maybe 50 years... groups like NAMBLA will be set free to have sex with kids, if those kids... are agreeable to it.

What the heck???
YOU JUST SAID "in amsterdam today... it is legal to have sex with children".
And now you turn around and claim it may happen in 50 years???

You seriously have no clue as to what you're talking about, even to the extent that you can't maintain consistency WITHIN YOUR OWN POST.
That link I gave above?
82% of Amsterdam wants to stop a "pro-pedophilia" party FROM EVEN FORMING.
That involves stopping people's freedom of speech.
THAT is how much Amsterdam is opposed to the idea.

And you want to pretend that "in maybe 50 years", things will just change and everybody will think it's fine to RAPE KIDS.

Homosexuality is about two consenting adults.
Child molestation is about RAPING KIDS.
The fact that you think there is a slippery slope is very disturbing on your part...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

you may say its my moraiity.. but if you believe you can pick and choose your own morality... then you must recgonize that with each new generation... those standards of morality... progress.. and progress.. until we will have sodom and gommorah.

There is nothing wrong with homosexuality.
People of the religious mindset have been pretending that hades will rain down upon us FOR CENTURIES if we don't adhere to their rigid mindset.
Hasn't happened.
Won't happen.

The argument against child molestation is about RAPING KIDS. HARMING KIDS.
That has nothing to do with two adult men loving each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

8) if people... are naturally born gay... or bi...
THEN THERE SHOULD BE NO PROBLEM WITH TEACHING MORALITY, and clean self control of sexual tendencies as the common social norm...
because teaching such will not prevent gays from being gay...
and will not outlaw sin..

I think the real problem is that we need to teach "self control" of religious tendencies...

I have a problem with "TEACHING MORALITY" cause your brand of religious morality has NO PLACE in our public schools.
I support showing people the MEDICAL and PROVEN consequences of promiscuity.
But your prejudice has no scientific backing, and as such has no place in a school.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion

And instead there is every reason to promote morality .. and with it.. tolerance, but tolerance does not mean complete and open acceptance.

Do you even understand what "tolerance" means in the first place?
Are you asking for an anti-gay morality to be taught in schools?
That isn't "tolerance" at all!

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