Originally Posted by jim's trucking

The borders of the USA should be closed to random travel, the existing immigration laws should be enforced or changed, all illegal aliens should be sent home.

What are the pros and cons of:

enforcing current laws?

closing the borders to random travel?

sending illegals home?

Sending illegals back is not realistic. 12 million people would require the creation of even more government and in a toliterterian fashion. The sheer costs of deportation would be insane, furthermore, I;m pretty sure it's not legal to deport American citizens (aka the kids who were born here) merely because their parents were illegals.

Closing the border to random travel isn't exactly as easy as you make it out to be. Mexico is our #2 or #3 trading partner after Canada and possible China. Randomly shutting down the borders which is no different then stopping travel as the trucks that ship stuff back and forth use the same terminals would hurt the economies of both nations, leading to even MORE illegals coming over.

The key thing that most anti-illegal immigrants fail to realize is that until Mexico can provide better opportunities for its people, they will keep coming here no matter what we do. As Richardson stated, if we build a 12 foot wall, they'll use 13 foot ladders.

Which laws are you discussing about for enforcement?

Plus there hasn't been a conclusive study on whether or not the illegals are better for the economy or worse. But, IMO, they are deflationary factor, reducing labor costs for many industries who pass the savings to consumers. Food, primarily vegetables and fruits for one benefits from low cost labor. I bet you if illegals were all thrown out, stuff would cost a lot more.

how much would it cost to round up 12 million plus people i would say alot.
i do know that last year America spent more than 1.6 billion services for illegals ie welfare, housing, food stamps, prison ect.... also less than 2% of illegals pic crops but 32% are on some sort of welfare. since September of 2001 more than 224 billion dollars have been wired to Latin America, money not deposited in u.s. banks, not used to buy goods in the USA

sorry i hit post to early

further more as to a 13 foot ladder i agree as long as the border is under maned this will happen but put more armed officers on the border the number of crossings can almost be depleted legal passage only most of the border has no fence and think of all that crosses the border both ways drugs, money, sex slaves brought from eastern Europe dateline NBC did a shocking story where they bought a 14 year old girl to bring to the USA. they also filmed the Mexican army escorting drug cartels across the border into USA driving military trucks with machine guns mounted on them the HOMELAND SECURITY is award of this. also they have a gang called coyotes they go across the Bord steal high end suvs then bring to Mexico and sell.


one more thought to scare you, this story is more than six years old but still scary.

on a class trip to Russia a young american studet bought a EMPTY nuclear warhead create 5 foot long with Russian writing and a atomic warning painted on it for ten dollars at a surplus store. he filled it with his luggage and put a sticker over the giant nuclear warning label when he got to the airport he declared it was stowed under the plane mind you this case is lined to prevent electrical interference so it cant be x-rayed .when he landed in lax he fund his luggage on the belt locked untouched unopened he had two lay overs! he went home he pealed the sticker covering the warning label off then decide what Else he could do with it shortly after he strapped it to his ATV drove across the Arizona Mexican border twice with no border agent in sight he than went home,

no good can come from insecure borders

Originally Posted by ironcourage

how much would it cost to round up 12 million plus people i would say alot.

$41 billion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...072501605.html

And that doesn't account for the rises in product costs that we'll have to pay due to higher labor in the cost structure of many producers.

i do know that last year America spent more than 1.6 billion services for illegals ie welfare, housing, food stamps, prison ect.... also less than 2% of illegals pic crops but 32% are on some sort of welfare.

$1.6 billion is like the power bill at Cheyenne Mountain for a year.

since September of 2001 more than 224 billion dollars have been wired to Latin America, money not deposited in u.s. banks, not used to buy goods in the USA

So? Nationals sending money back to their home countries has always existed. Billions follow from US ex-patriots to the US. Billions flow from US citizens with families in foreign countries. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. If that money can be used to develop those countries, the desire for illegal immigration decreases.

Those stories are rare, and somewhat tangental to the issues of illegal immigration.

I have to agree on the cost - it would be extremelyhigh..

What exactly do you mean by random travel? Are you including tourism in this? I certainly don't want my travel to be restrained to the US alone.

Cost?
What?
Like the cost of the Iraq war for a month?

Nuke Iraq or steal all their oil.
Bring troops home, invade Canada and anex it.
Invade Mexico and all countries down to an including Panama.
Anex them.

Or, buy some land mines from Europeans and place them along the border.
That's like what? $50 USD a ton?

Originally Posted by obvious_child

$41 billion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...072501605.html

And that doesn't account for the rises in product costs that we'll have to pay due to higher labor in the cost structure of many producers.



$1.6 billion is like the power bill at Cheyenne Mountain for a year.



So? Nationals sending money back to their home countries has always existed. Billions follow from US ex-patriots to the US. Billions flow from US citizens with families in foreign countries. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. If that money can be used to develop those countries, the desire for illegal immigration decreases.

Those stories are rare, and somewhat tangental to the issues of illegal immigration.

$1.6 billion is like the power bill at Cheyenne Mountain for a year. i like that one!

are country has a spending problem do doubt about that
and i think we should concentrate on getting those who don't conform to our laws out first to minimize cost.

further more many of the big posters in this forum think everyones views are racially, religiously, gender and homophobia motivated and they bring that into every argument. i say i want a wall they say I'm racist so there the ones openly persecuting Christians, and people because there white with little or no opposition

i want a wall built to protect this country against crime it's economy, drug trade and crowded classrooms not to exclude people for there race. in my town kids have to learn in a trailer on the soccor field of are school. they don't have enough books so they made a lottery system if you don't get a book you have to buy them the lottery system is far from fair as they give the books to lower income families first so the illegals get the free books while us citizens have to buy books some cost over a hundred dollars. some illegals will argue that they pay income tax. schools get there money from property tax which they don't own any. our schools are over capacitated by 30 percent and 35 percent of the students are illegal immigrants and growing so you tell me how this is good.

please list some PRO's of open borders

Originally Posted by jitobear

What exactly do you mean by random travel? Are you including tourism in this? I certainly don't want my travel to be restrained to the US alone.

Random travel?....That would be total free travel across the border in each direction...without documentation (proof of citizenship)...without visas...work permits...student permits...

Travel without documentation is random paper-free border crossings.
I'm certainly not against tourism. We just need to require passports or visas to get back in.

Originally Posted by jim's trucking

Random travel?....That would be total free travel across the border in each direction...without documentation (proof of citizenship)...without visas...work permits...student permits...

Travel without documentation is random paper-free border crossings.
I'm certainly not against tourism. We just need to require passports or visas to get back in.

Gotcha. (And I thought we already did?)

Originally Posted by jitobear

Gotcha. (And I thought we already did?)

I think the effort was postponed because the United States Passport Production Company, Incorporated couldn't keep up.

We certainly don't control the border with Mexico now. The illegals that come here today are not sent back (unless they get caught committing a crime on Cobb County Georgia or some other place that sends them back.)

I haven't heard the latest number but there are hundreds of aliens crossing northward daily.

Originally Posted by ironcourage

$1.6 billion is like the power bill at Cheyenne Mountain for a year. i like that one!

It's a joke related to the TV show Stargate SG1. I don't actually know what the power bill is, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's that high.

are country has a spending problem do doubt about that
and i think we should concentrate on getting those who don't conform to our laws out first to minimize cost.

What do you mean 'minimize' the cost? You do know that a large number of illegals work for less then minimum wage, allowing companies to charge less money? Like I said before, illegal work is deflationary. I don't see how this is a bad thing. Furthermore, $41 billion is nothing compared to the 1 year cost of Iraq and peanuts compared to medicare.

i say i want a wall they say I'm racist so there the ones openly persecuting Christians, and people because there white with little or no opposition

....not sure where this is suppose to go.

i want a wall built to protect this country against crime it's economy, drug trade and crowded classrooms not to exclude people for there race. in my town kids have to learn in a trailer on the soccor field of are school. they don't have enough books so they made a lottery system if you don't get a book you have to buy them the lottery system is far from fair as they give the books to lower income families first so the illegals get the free books while us citizens have to buy books some cost over a hundred dollars. some illegals will argue that they pay income tax. schools get there money from property tax which they don't own any. our schools are over capacitated by 30 percent and 35 percent of the students are illegal immigrants and growing so you tell me how this is good.

please list some PRO's of open borders

Could you reformulate those into readable, understandable English?

Define 'open' borders.

Originally Posted by obvious_child

...

Define 'open' borders.

Borders across which there is unrestricted passage of people and materials.

Originally Posted by jim's trucking

Borders across which there is unrestricted passage of people and materials.

Does that exist anywhere in the developed world aside from the EU?