Yes, use billions of computers and hundreds of other electronic goods - and then ship millions of tonnes of toxic eWaste to asian countries for recycling - great.

I am using the computer because it exists - because it is being produced by Industrial Society. Was your great great grandfather using the computer when it did not exist?

If Industrial Revolution had not happened and if thousands of consumer goods were not being produced I would not need to use the computer or the bottle to discuss environmental crisis because ecosystem collapse would not have happened.

sushil_yadav
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

I fully and completely support rational environmentalism. After all, we only have one world and have been given dominion/responsibility to protect and preserve it as well as utilizing its natural resources. What I resent and reject are the rantings of radicals who will sacrifice human progress and quality of life at the throne of fear based assumptions which currently have NO basis in fact, and which focus on the wrong places to fix. And how dare you be criticizing american consumerism when it is India and China who are the largest contributors of greenhouse gasses on the planet.

Clean your own house and get India to build the buffers and exhaust purifiers into your factory stacks like we did way back in the 70s when we first invented that technology. I challenge you to go anywhere in the USA and find ONE industrial smoke stack which spews black, unwashed carbon/CO2 and carcinogen based gasses into our atmosphere as occurs 24/7/365 in your country and in china. Clean up your own house my friend and when you are as responsible as the US is, then you can criticize us.

And what is your solution to this? To destroy all the homes and power plants and everything and go back to nomadic tribes hunting animals with wooden spears? If you have a solution, let's hear it. My parents told me that you shouldn't whine about a problem if you don't have an idea about how to solve it.

__________________
My imaginary friend left me. He said his other friends didn't believe in me.

Spending our way out of the recession is like drinking our way out of alcoholism.

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
~ Thomas Jefferson

If you had read the text of the "Copenhagen Treaty" that you were railing against, you would have realized that this is what it dealt with. But you were too busy pushing your repudiation document and fearmongering to actually read it. Which reminds me, you still have yet to answer me in that thread...

__________________
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do too (if they have a gun)". -Eddie Izzard

Long is the way
And hard, that out of Hell leads up to Light. -Milton

Without industrialization, sustainability would be impossible. It'd be impossible for a city of 20 million to exist without industrialization. There'd be no way you could grow enouh food and livestock to feed that many people. It would be impossible to house that many people, provide sanitary services, etc.,
Absolutely. No polio, smallpox, life expectancy >70 years. You bet it's good.
How about the million Iraqis that starved to death during Saddam Hussein's post Iraq War reign.
Fatness is a sign of prosperity. Even Buddha was fat.
Got any statistics on that? I'm betting the %s are small compared to those starving to death and dying from the lack of industrialization. Want to take that bet?

__________________
"The problem with Socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money."
- Margaret Thatcher

"We had the machine scared and scrambling, and for them it is just the beginning of an election year filled with surprises. They will be challenged again and again across this country. When there's trouble in Massachusetts, there's trouble everywhere -- and now they know it." Senator Scott Brown (R MA)

Which country has 5% of world population and is consuming 40% of world resources?

The entire planet has been polluted and poisoned - there is billions of tonnes of hazardous waste everywhere - in the atmosphere - in the oceans - on the land - and here is someone talking about clean America.

How can the environment of US be clean? How can the environment of any Industrial Society be clean? This is impossible.

In Industrial process three kinds of wastes are produced - solid, liquid and gaseous.

There are only three places on earth where you can throw this waste - air, water and land.

Where is America throwing its waste? Has America found a fourth place to dump billions of tonnes of its toxic waste?


sushil_yadav
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

Some people will just not get it - no matter how hard you try - no matter how many times you explain.

The two things that have destroyed Environment are - Overpopulation and Overconsumerism.

Science, Technology and Industrialization are responsible for both these problems. World population was less than 1 billion in the year 1800. Nature had its way of controlling population through disease and death caused by bacteria and virus. When man made medicines/ antibiotics he created disaster - population increased very rapidly. In the absence of "Industrial Agriculture" the feeding capacity of soil would have kept population under control. If Industrial Revolution had not happened, environmental destruction due to production of consumer goods would not exist. In the absence of Science, Technology and "Industrial Revolution" we would not be facing the two problems that have caused destruction of ecosystems - overpopulation and overconsumerism.


If "Industrial Revolution" had not happened what would be the scenario today?

The feeding capacity of soil would have kept population under control.

Diseases caused by virus and bacteria would have kept population under control.

Maybe I would'nt be existing today - and billions of others may not have existed - but millions/ billions of humans would exist [just like they existed before Industrialization]

Most ecosystems would be hundreds of times/ thousands of times in better shape than today.

Millions of other species that have been decimated by Industrial Society would be existing in very healthy numbers - their population levels thousands of times greater than what they are now.


Providing food, clothing, shelter and healthcare is good. But did "Industrial Society" stop at that?

Do we have an Industrial Society that only provides food, clothing, shelter and healthcare to people?

No - the jokers tried to sell hundreds of consumer goods to all citizens of Industrial Society. They tried to make all people consumerists.

Industrial Society started destroying ecosystems for "consumer goods" in addition to destroying them for food, clothing and shelter.

You cannot do this on a small planet that is just 40,000 km in circumference. If you live this way you end up destroying all ecosystems - you end up decimating all other species - you end up destroying animals, trees, air, water and land - the very things that created and sustained all life on earth.


sushil_yadav
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

These thing did happen, get over it. We are here, we have antibiotics, we rely on cars, we needs electricity, we need clean water, we need medicine and food and clothing and houses and lawnmowers. Do you honestly think that you are going to change all this?

One of 3 things will happen.
1. The doomsday junk you have been shouting.
2. A gradual climate change leading to water shortage, food shortage, increased severe weather, and extinction of many species (among many others).
3. Nothing.

From my experience, I find that the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

But what strikes me the most is this. You are not going to change anything by your actions here. As some have already poiinted out, you're use of the computer flies in the face of the very thing you preach against. Not only does it use resources to make and ship, but it uses electricity every time you come on and post your paranoia. And if overpopulation is the problem...I'm sure you wouldn't mind ending your life to help ease the crisis...right? I'm reminded of something a friend once told me:

If you're not part of the solution, you're the precipitate.

Think about it.

__________________
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do too (if they have a gun)". -Eddie Izzard

Long is the way
And hard, that out of Hell leads up to Light. -Milton

Once again I ask you sushil, do you have an idea of how to take down industrial society or are you just going to whine about it? Doesn't it kind of ruin your credibility considering that you're using a computer, an item produced by industry and heavily dependant on air polluting power plants, to discuss this?

I'm much happier in an industrial society than I would be as a caveman. I don't bite the hand that feeds me.

__________________
My imaginary friend left me. He said his other friends didn't believe in me.

Spending our way out of the recession is like drinking our way out of alcoholism.

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
~ Thomas Jefferson

People rush to post without even understanding the issues. Did I ever claim I am not a part of society that is destroying the ecosystems. The topic of my article says - Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment - and since I am living in a city and am a part of "Industrial Society" I get included automatically.

By the way , let me tell you - the computer I am using belongs to someone else in the family. I am using very few other consumer goods and services. I invite people who are bothered about my use of computer to post a list of all the consumer goods and services they are using - I will post my list - and then we shall compare to find out who is a bigger burden on earth.

I find it ironic that you have no concern/ compassion for Environment despite the fact that you owe your very existence to nature/ environment.

Why do you breathe the Air?

Why do you drink the Water?

Why do you eat the Food that comes from Soil? - Why don't you have Computers for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Take all your technology to the Moon - and try producing a single grain of Food without using any natural ingredient from Earth.


In the absence of Nature your grandfather would'nt have lived.
In the absence of Nature your father would'nt have lived.
In the absence of Nature you would'nt have lived.

Show some respect to Nature.


sushil_yadav
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

What I marvel at is that environmentalist extremist wackos will make this absurd claim not realizing that if it were true, and had been for the decades that they have been making the claim, the world would have run out of all natural resources just 2 1/2 years after the assertion was first made. And secondly, I marvel that you think we rationalists are so stupid that we wont see through your propaganda, misinformation and lies.

So prove with real, provable and rational evidence that your statement is actually true, and then explain why any natural resources exist if it is.

Have you forgotten that mother earth has a known and proven method of cleaning its environment if it isn't overwhelmed by unchecked pollutants in each of the mediums you mention? And the evidence of America's cleanliness is there for all to see. We don't dump our trash in our oceans, lakes and rivers anymore as is still happening in India and China. We don't dump toxic chemicals in unprotected area's where it can get into the water table. And I have already made clear that our EPA regulates each and every industrial smoke stack which must be fitted with the appropriate buffers and collectors before the factories will even be activated for service.

America's skies are smog free compared to India and China: Here are the 20 most polluted cities on Earth, notice that not one american city is on the list. Your country wishes that what we consider a polluted city here was the extent of your problems there:
Most Dangerously Plluted Cities In The World

http://proprintshop.net/ImageFolder/...98000_Pics.jpg

China's skies can be cut with a knife: http://www.foxnews.com/images/465061...china_smog.jpg

Look at the haze over India, and the explanation that it increases plant growth and the more efficient absorption of CO2. AccuWeather.com: Global Warming News, Science, Myths, Articles

America converts trash to energy, it burns trash but collects and buffers the exhaust so that no poisons or toxins are expelled into the atmosphere. We have built water filtration systems on our previously polluted rivers which used to receive open sewage and toxins from factories, but haven't since the 70s in most communities in America.


Here is the reality for India: The Hindu : 'Ganga is the most polluted river' http://www.petermalakoff.com/washing...blackframe.jpg


Now look at China's rivers: http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07...07_huai_01.jpg

Here is the report of the EPA regarding the American Heritage River program and the State of the River Report ... Clean Water Action Plan (CWAP) EPA's American Heritage Rivers > River Updates Index > American Heritage Rivers Updates See for yourself that we have been committed to and active in cleaning our own house for many decades now. Actually, since the early 70's when the EPA was founded for just this reason of cleaning the serious air pollution in cities like Los Angelus where the particulate levels were so high that asthmatics and people with other lung ailments couldn't even leave their homes on certain days for health reasons.

So America has been seriously committed to this endeavor for going on 50 years and we have proven that if man works with mother nature which is a self cleaning environment, the earth can and will clean itself and remain pristine. So, like I said, get your own house in order before you condemn and criticize mine, because my house is clean.

Mr. Expert Opinion,

Let me enlighten you oncre again that when I refer to "Industrial Society" in my article Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment I am referring to all countries of the world - The West as well as India , China , Japan ....all countries.

If American environment is so clean then what was Rachel Carson complaining about several decades ago?

You say America is not destroying the ecosystems and American environment is clean. This is as true as the following statements :

Iraq has got weapons of mass destruction.

America has brought peace to Iraq.

The proofs you have provided are like the proof of Iraq having weapons of mass destruction which America pesented before invading Iraq.


Industrial Society has been spreading blatant lies over the years.

"Green Industry", "Green Technology", "Ethical Consumerism", "Sustainable Development".

These are contradictory terms – these are oxymorons.
Industrialization can never be green – it is impossible.

You cannot save a person after you have killed him.
You cannot save ecosystems after you have killed them for making consumer goods.


When we make consumer goods we kill Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land - directly or indirectly.

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems - all Industrial Societies destroy ecosystems.

It hardly matters whether it is "Capitalist Industrial Society" - "Communist Industrial Society" - or "Socialist Industrial Society".

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems at every stage of its functioning - when consumer goods are produced - when consumer goods are used - when consumer goods are discarded/ recycled.

Raw material for industry is obtained by cutting up Forests. It is extracted by mining/ digging up the earth. It comes by destroying/ killing Trees, Animals and Land.

Industries/ Factories use Water. The water that comes out of Factories is contaminated with hundreds of toxic chemicals. What to speak of Rivers - entire Oceans have been polluted. Industry kills Water.

Industries/ Factories burn millions of tonnes of fuel - and when raw material is melted/ heated up, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into the atmosphere. Industry kills Air.

Industrial Society has covered millions of square miles of land with cement and concrete. Industry kills Land.

When consumer goods are discarded/ thrown away in landfills it again leads to destruction of ecosystems.

When consumer goods are recycled, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into air, water and land.

Consumer goods are sold/ marketed through a network of millions of kilometers of rail / road network and shipping routes which causes destruction of all ecosystems that come in the way.


We have limited resources/ ecosystems on earth which is just 40,000 km in circumference.

If we destroy ecosystems for fewer things [food, clothing, shelter] the ecosystems will last longer.

If we destroy ecosystems for more things [consumer goods] the ecosystems will finish much sooner.

The fewer things we make the more sustainable we are.

This is common sense - plain common sense - which the so called smart, intelligent, advanced, civilized and developed Industrial Society does not possess.


sushil_yadav
PowerSwitch
EnviroLink
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

I agree that humans are slowly destroying the planet through pollution of the environment, rapid depletion of natural resources, and our general feeling of superiority on this planet that makes some think we can do whatever we want and not face any consequences.

I do not however subscribe to your paranoid rantings. It seems that you would have us destroy all technology and crawl back into caves. That is a rediculous, extremist approach that is never going to be even seriously considered. Why not use techology and our understanding of the environment to make a difference? We need serious solutions, not paranoia.

__________________
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do too (if they have a gun)". -Eddie Izzard

Long is the way
And hard, that out of Hell leads up to Light. -Milton

In all of this drivel you never answered the question of how america is using 40% of the worlds resources annually without depleting the worlds resources in only 2 1/2 years. In fact, you never provided one iota of evidence which refuted anything I supplied evidence for through the links I posted. All you do is spew your extremist rhetoric as if it is a fact just because you say it.

Tell me this my hypocritical friend, if we humans stopped farming animals for the consumption of meat and stopped growing fruits and vegetables on an industrial level, how many of the 6.8 billion people on earth would die within months? Or don't you care about that.

You very clearly define the perceived problem but offer no solutions at all. How about you explain next how your country can take responsibility for it own annual contributions of greenhouse gasses which dwarfs what america contributes in the real world today, as we speak.

And while you're at it, try worrying about the starving millions in your own country as people starve as the traders get rich. Traders make a killing, as people starve

Do you understand the 5% and 40% thing? It doesnt mean that Americans are consuming 40% of total resources available on earth every year. It means Americans are consuming 40% of what the entire world is consuming every year.

5% of world population [America] is consuming 40% of resources.

The remaining 95% of world population is consuming 60% of resources.


sushil_yadav
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment