Originally Posted by Shooterandproud

Thats all? You don't have much experience in this do you? You can tell their personality. If they're wearing khaki pants and a buttoned turtle neck shirt, you can tell that they're a nerd. If they're wearing all black with a huge mohawk and spikes around their necks and arms, you can tell they're emo. If they have super baggy pants with a hat sideways, a very loose gangster-looking shirt, you can tell that they're gangster (not "a gangerster" just "gangster"). I have never in my life determined how much money someone has by their clothes.

You bring up an interesting point. When I was in school, kids with mohawks and spiked collars were considered "punk rock" not "emo." It's pretty obvious that these types of labels are the result of shallow thinking. Fads and trends change like the seasons.

The problem is your view is lmited because you haven't yet experienced the real world. High school is nothing like the real world. When you go to a job interview, if you show up in all black with a mohawk and a spiked collar, you probably aren't going to get the job. People aren't going to think of you as "emo." They are going to think of you as immature and stupid.

Ok, no problem. Lemme just get a bullhorn here, and run around yelling "I advocate legalizing marijuana!" over and over again. Thats real efficiant.

But wearing a t-shirt is? Not really. It's actually passive-agressive.

No one is school is stupid enough to wear a rolex. First of all, watches are out of style unless you're scuba diving. Second, you're most likely to get jumped or get it stolen.

Again, your frame of reference is kids. I'm talking about preparing kids to be adults in our society. Right now, our system treats kids the exact opposite of the way they will be treated as adults.

We're talking about kids here. Right? You wanted forced uniforms in schools, last time I remember.

See above. Thats pretty narrow minded thinking.

Actually, it isn't narrow-minded thinking at all. I'm looking to the future. The two main purposes of school are education and preparation. We are doing a terrible job with both.

Hell, if thats what you wanted, why not hold them at gunpoint? I guarantee you that will raise test grades.

Are you saying you don't want schools to create productive, educated adults?

And, you think that test scores depend on the clothes someone wears?

I am saying Japan has a nationwide school uniform policy. The kids don't complain they are being forced or oppressed, and they score higher on tests than Americans. You figure it out.

You spend 8 hours a day, 5 days a week in school. You see more people you know there than almost anywhere. If it was 2 or three hours a day, then maybe. But 8 hours a day is a bit much to be wearing the same set of clothes over and over again.

Are you a woman? Seriously. I go to work 5 days a week, 8 hours or more a day. I don't socialize with people when I'm at work. I am expected to be clean-shaven and well-dressed when I am work, as I am a representative of the company. This is the situation in the majority of decent jobs you will find. School should be looked at as the first step towards a professional environment.

Sorry to stop you here, but where is your evidence of that? Where I came from, it told us that we were being controlled, that our opinions didn't matter, and that the teachers and administrators were superior to us. It was quite degrading to our self esteem.

No, that is what you told yourself. If you feel controlled having to wear a uniform at school, wouldn't going to school itself make you feel controlled? That is a sad argument. I really don't understand how you think if you are wearing a uniform your opinions suddenly don't matter. In case you didn't realize, teachers and administrators ARE superior to you. The problem is that you don't understand this. It's also sad that your clothes affect your self-esteem. Are you really that shallow? Are you nothing underneathe the clothes you wear?

Sorry for the outburst, but thats one of the stupidest laws that I've heard of. Each school is different. In some schools, it is very harmful to the kids to have uniforms forced on them. Other districts, the kids actually enjoy wearing uniforms. Fine with me, but forcing them on every school in the US is like making a state religion. Out public educations system sucks for other reasons, way different reasons. If you want it to suck even more, then by all means put in a uniform policy. But I guarantee you, that WILL encourage all students to rebel. It wouldn't be much of a problem in low elementary school grades, but in middle and high school I can only see downright chaos.

You may as well just have typed "blah blah blah" here. It could have saved me some time.

It is up to the individual schools if they want a forced uniform policy, not the state, and definitely not the feds. And, I think the kids should have a say in whether they wear uniforms or not. After all, its their bodies and their clothes.

You're right. It's their bodies. We should go ahead and get rid of all the limits we impose on kids. Let em drink and smoke and buy porn! Why not? It's their body! Let's allow the kids to decide everything about school.

Kids are not machines. They are not like cars. With a car, if its not running, then you put more fuel in it, check the engine, etc. (i don't know much about cars). You don't just feed a kid information, the kid doesn't process it, and then spit it back out onto a test. You're oversimplifying the situation, although I applaud you trying. We need much more information if we're going to deal with something of this magnatude.

I'm not sure the point you are making here. Taking in information, processing it, and spitting it back out on a test is exactly what kids do in school.

What we really need is a balance. If you're too strict with kids then it will encourage rebellion, and fights and drop-outs. However, if you're too loose with them, then, as you stated above, kids don't make good decisions. I consider myself to be more mature than some of my peers. Maybe I'm being a little too cocky here, but I can see the bad decisions that kids make, even the smallest ones. I can make a lot of decisions on my own. My parents trust me more then most parents trust their kids, and I rarely fail my parents in making good decisions. However, my rebellious streak comes in when I'm treated like a 5-year old. I deserve better than that. Don't treat us like 5-year olds and we won't act like them. Simple as that.

Wrong. Kids make bad decisions no matter what. It doesn't matter if you are strict, a pushover, or somewhere in the middle. Kids are immature, inexperienced, and horrible decision makers. Brilliant kids with loving parents shoot up their school. Yous also pointed out the other problem. Kids like you think you are mature and make good decisions. Guess what? Most kids think that way. Ten years from now, you will look back on decisions you thought were good and say to yourself, "I can't believe I did that." Everybody I know has.

As a side note, it may surprise you to learn that I went to my senior prom dressed like a punk rocker. I had a ripped turquoise suit with safety pins all over it, spiked bleached hair, and Chucks. The next Monday, I had a teacher who I had never had a class with come up to me and say, "My wife was talking about you all weekend long." The point is, the reasoning behind me wearing that was to basically give a big middle finger to the school. I guess deep sown inside, I just wish kids had some pride in their school and could actually get a decent education. I felt that public school had let me down, and I was angry.

The bottom line is, the only somewhat-decent argument I have heard against school uniforms is that it violates freedom of speech. Interestingly enough, this came from the girl I went to the prom with.

Originally Posted by E Mutz

Most kids are XXXXXX and will do idiotic things. I was a kid and I was an idiot. The last thing I would have wanted was for a bunch of old farts to come into the school and tell me that I couldn't wear what I wanted. I spent 4 years in ROTC and had a strict haircut code along with uniform requirements one day of the week. The rest of the time I was free to wear vans, Swatch, and other fashion crimes. The same old farts that would have imposed a dress code on me were guilty of bell bottoms. No generation that wore bell bottoms has moral authority over the fashions of another.

I do not believe that you can legislate common sense or morality. If a kid wants to pierce his forehead and wear a shower curtain to school, hey, more power to him. Just don't come back to society with your hand out complaining about how the greedy rich won't hire you because you look like an industrial accident and lack basic skills.

When dealing with teenagers, it is best to allow them to clothe themselves in a manner that gives you fair warning of who the XXXXXX are. You can normally draw some conclusions about an individual based on the care in which they put into their personal appearance. Put all the students in the same outfit and you have no idea who the functional ones are. If given the opportunity teenagers, like all herding animals, will want to be different, just like everyone else. Those who lack better judgment than to present themselves as random assortments of ill-fitted laundry inform you that their bulb is not of the highest wattage.

This shooter fellow might have the worst taste in clothes imaginable, I don't know, but I can hardly see how imposing my dress code on him is going to transform him into anything but a resentful yute who looks for other ways to strike out an imposing society and to establish his own sense of identity. If dude gets a thrill out of wearing his pants down low so you can see his drawers, rave on man! Just don't be surprised when you think you look like an idiot 20 years later when flipping through the yearbook.

This is actually the best point of view I have heard so far against school uniforms. The only problem is I don't believe you can really tell a whole lot about a person (especially as a kid, but even as an adult) just by what they wear. I know a girl who dressed like a hooker or hippie (those are her words) throughout all of school and she's going to graduate from law school in May.

Originally Posted by DrNo

You bring up an interesting point. When I was in school, kids with mohawks and spiked collars were considered "punk rock" not "emo." It's pretty obvious that these types of labels are the result of shallow thinking. Fads and trends change like the seasons.

Faster than seasons.

The problem is your view is lmited because you haven't yet experienced the real world. High school is nothing like the real world. When you go to a job interview, if you show up in all black with a mohawk and a spiked collar, you probably aren't going to get the job. People aren't going to think of you as "emo." They are going to think of you as immature and stupid.

And how do you suppose kids are supposed to learn how to dress appropriately if they've only been wearing one thing for a long time?

Again, your frame of reference is kids. I'm talking about preparing kids to be adults in our society. Right now, our system treats kids the exact opposite of the way they will be treated as adults.

Well then, we had a little misunderstanding.

Actually, it isn't narrow-minded thinking at all. I'm looking to the future. The two main purposes of school are education and preparation. We are doing a terrible job with both.

Well, it could be worse, but it sure as hell could be a lot better. But then again, how far do you want to go with "whatever means necessary to help our kids be educated"? To the point of all liberties stripped? To the point of reverting back to corpral punishment? Maybe holding guns to their heads? Theres a common sense line that needs to be drawn.

Are you saying you don't want schools to create productive, educated adults?

And who says that holding kids at gunpoint won't make them more productive? I sure as hell think it would.

I am saying Japan has a nationwide school uniform policy. The kids don't complain they are being forced or oppressed, and they score higher on tests than Americans. You figure it out.

First of all, you can't compare the Japanese to the Americans. There is a HUGE cultural difference, and that would be like comparing an apple to an orange. Just because you like the taste of the orange better, doesn't mean the apple is bad. And to support my hypothesis, i bring up the gun issue. They have the most draconian gun laws in the world, and they have low crime. People draw the conclusion that less guns mean less crime, right? However, in Switzerland theres an AK in every house, and they also have very low crime. The states in the US with most gun control are notorious for crime. There is so much contradiction, that you can only draw the conclusion that it is due to cultural differences. I'm fine if you compare states educational test scores, but it means nothing to compare a foreign country.

Are you a woman? Seriously. I go to work 5 days a week, 8 hours or more a day. I don't socialize with people when I'm at work. I am expected to be clean-shaven and well-dressed when I am work, as I am a representative of the company. This is the situation in the majority of decent jobs you will find. School should be looked at as the first step towards a professional environment.

I agree, however you're not going to get fired or kicked out of school if you dress a bit different than everyone else. A job is awhile away from school, and you can't necessarily treat kids as full grown adults. They are not extremely different, but they are somewhat different, with different interests. Adults don't care AS MUCH about what they wear as kids around middle and high school do.

No, that is what you told yourself. If you feel controlled having to wear a uniform at school, wouldn't going to school itself make you feel controlled?

No, because school is a necessary part of life. It helps prepare for later in life and is good for you. Uniforms serve no purpose, are stupid, and the only conclusion I can draw from them being forced on us is that it is a control thing.

That is a sad argument. I really don't understand how you think if you are wearing a uniform your opinions suddenly don't matter. In case you didn't realize, teachers and administrators ARE superior to you.

Administrators and teachers are the equivelant of bosses. They, in this case, would be my boss. Bosses aren't superior to you, they just tell you what to do. Thats their job.

The problem is that you don't understand this. It's also sad that your clothes affect your self-esteem. Are you really that shallow? Are you nothing underneathe the clothes you wear?

You obviously don't understand kids very well. I am someone underneath what I wear, but no one else will know that unless i strip naked and carry around a megaphone shouting about myself. Like they say, pictures say a thousand words. In this case, your clothes would be your picture.

You may as well just have typed "blah blah blah" here. It could have saved me some time.

Is that your best response?

You're right. It's their bodies. We should go ahead and get rid of all the limits we impose on kids. Let em drink and smoke and buy porn! Why not? It's their body! Let's allow the kids to decide everything about school.

You're comparing a kids clothes to drinking, smoking, and porn? If you're going to play it that way, show me specific evidence that show devastating physical and psycological impacts of dressing without uniforms, impacts as harmful as smoking and drinking and porn.

I'm not sure the point you are making here. Taking in information, processing it, and spitting it back out on a test is exactly what kids do in school.

And that is my problem with the public educations system.

Wrong. Kids make bad decisions no matter what. It doesn't matter if you are strict, a pushover, or somewhere in the middle.

Wrong. I had a choice to do my homework. I chose to do it, and I'm pretty sure that was the right choice. I had a choice after school to eat junk food after school today, but I chose not to, and I'm pretty sure that was the right choice. I am faced with choices all the time, and most of the time I make the right ones, and when I don't, oh well, it sucks for me. But adults make wrong choices too. Kids judgement isn't as good as adult's, but that doesn't mean we always make wrong choices.

Kids are immature, inexperienced, and horrible decision makers. Brilliant kids with loving parents shoot up their school. Yous also pointed out the other problem. Kids like you think you are mature and make good decisions. Guess what? Most kids think that way. Ten years from now, you will look back on decisions you thought were good and say to yourself, "I can't believe I did that." Everybody I know has.

I'm running on advice from my parents. Unless they're somehow kids in disguise, or are retarted (which i'm sure they're not), i'm pretty sure I'm making the right decisions. When I make bad decisions, i know within a week. However, I guess we'll see in 10 years won't we?

As a side note, it may surprise you to learn that I went to my senior prom dressed like a punk rocker. I had a ripped turquoise suit with safety pins all over it, spiked bleached hair, and Chucks. The next Monday, I had a teacher who I had never had a class with come up to me and say, "My wife was talking about you all weekend long." The point is, the reasoning behind me wearing that was to basically give a big middle finger to the school. I guess deep sown inside, I just wish kids had some pride in their school and could actually get a decent education. I felt that public school had let me down, and I was angry.

The bottom line is, the only somewhat-decent argument I have heard against school uniforms is that it violates freedom of speech. Interestingly enough, this came from the girl I went to the prom with.

Although the first story is not an uncommon one in our society, I think you have the uniform thing backwards. If a new law is coming into place, such as an abortion ban, a gun ban, etc. The question is usually not "why not?" its "why?". The same goes for a uniform policy. Why? What purpose would they serve? If they prepare kids for later on in life, how do they do it? Where are your stats to back you up? What are your arguments? That sort of thing, plus, what do the people say who are disadvantaged or hurt by this new policy/law? They should have some say too.

Originally Posted by Shooterandproud

Faster than seasons.

This would be a great name for a rock band.

Originally Posted by E Mutz

This would be a great name for a rock band.

Can I use it for my new band?

Originally Posted by E Mutz

This would be a great name for a rock band.

Lol, i agree.

lol, from school uniforms to rock bands.

uniforms??

there is no point of wearing a uniform . it takes away your individuality.
it' a waste of money. our parents ave to buy a new uniform almost every single school year.

GET RID OF UNIFORM

like test scores are effected by what u wear

Originally Posted by lady x

uniforms??

there is no point of wearing a uniform . it takes away your individuality.
it' a waste of money. our parents ave to buy a new uniform almost every single school year.

GET RID OF UNIFORM

You jest. Why on earth should it take away your individuality ? That is up to the person.

Never had any problems in wearing a school uniform for the whole of my school life. Nor did any others.
Hardly a waste of money as you wear it continuously thereby getting value for money rather than buying the latest fad which probably costs even more.

My uniform on the whole lasted a couple of years.

Originally Posted by lady x

like test scores are effected by what u wear

You miss the point. If you think test scores are the only thing that matter in school, I suggest you rethink.

You spend more time there than almost anywhere just as I spend more time at my job than almost anywhere. You are learning a lot of social interaction. You are learning how to think logically and problem solve.

Uniforms, remove a specific barrior. No longer do you need to stand in front of your mirror and say "what shall I wear" and then get in lunch room fights or gossip because so and so has a knock off instead of the real article.

The uniform requirement attempts to facilitate kids being a little more "real" than judging people based on surface issues.

Huck.

Originally Posted by huckleberry

The uniform requirement attempts to facilitate kids being a little more "real" than judging people based on surface issues.

Huck.

And this preps them for the real world how?

You made good sense in an earlier portion of that same post...

You spend more time there than almost anywhere just as I spend more time at my job than almost anywhere. You are learning a lot of social interaction. You are learning how to think logically and problem solve.

Removing a childs early decision making and self evaluation does little to establish real world building blocks. Degrading that social interaction through the use of uniforms is bad policy. It's the parents fault (in most cases) if a child doesn't follow the dress code that is already in place and yet we penalize the children. In the rare cases that the child is changing clothing once at school it is usually a lack of school discipline that fails to correct the problem.

Daddy Man

Originally Posted by Daddy Man

And this preps them for the real world how?

It preps them in that it promotes them seeing the other students as people instead of by how they dress. It can eliminate or at least alleviate some of the social class structures that tend to develop.

On second thought, as I type this I see your point. Point withdrawn. I still believe that they can be beneficial based on my other points. They must be implemented properly though.

Originally Posted by huckleberry

You miss the point. If you think test scores are the only thing that matter in school, I suggest you rethink.

You spend more time there than almost anywhere just as I spend more time at my job than almost anywhere. You are learning a lot of social interaction. You are learning how to think logically and problem solve.

I still fail to see the correlation between uniforms and logic and problem solving.

Uniforms, remove a specific barrior. No longer do you need to stand in front of your mirror and say "what shall I wear" and then get in lunch room fights or gossip because so and so has a knock off instead of the real article.

Thats a misinformed steryotype. Not once has there been any word about anyones clothes (except this kid me and my friend saw wearing a pretty cool jacket, but thats it). I've been at this school for almost three years, and unless someone is wearing a towel, there is no talk over people's clothes. You're expected to look decent, but thats about it. Everyone has a different and unique style, and there is no reason to take that away.

The uniform requirement attempts to facilitate kids being a little more "real" than judging people based on surface issues.

Huck.

It "attempts to", I won't argue with that. However, where I come from it failed. I spent 6 years in a school with uniforms and almost 3 years in a school without. From what I observed, the uniform was counterproductive.