In recent healthcare debates I've seen a number of conservatives fall back on variations on this argument. What I'm curious about is whether this applies to taxation in general or just to taxation funding things that conservatives don't like? For example, is taxation to fund a standing army considered theft, how about prisons? Or is it just things that might help people?

Don't bother with arguing about whether the US constitution allows it, that's irrelevant to the discussion, as clearly we're not discussing a legal definition of theft; and also because there needs to be just as much obfuscation to allow a permanent standing army as there does to have a welfare system.

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“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
“It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
"It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
"We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

I think the horse you are on is maybe a little high Jo.
Of course one would object to their money being spent on government projects that they do not believe in.
I am sure that if you were an American you would object to the money spent on the war in Iraq.

__________________
When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing—they believe in anything
G.K.Chesterton

From:Kevin Trenberth U.S climate expert.
Date:Mon,12 Oct,2009

The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't.
(In an email debate over a BBC report on the apparent dip in global warming since 2001)

I object to the money the British government spending money on the Iraq war. That's not the point. I'm not claiming that it's theft for the government to use tax money I have paid to fight wars. I think it's wrong for the government to spend money on that, but not because it's my money they are using, it would be wrong if they were funding it from profits made by the post office or revenues from North Sea oil. It's the activity being funded that's wrong, not the method used to fund it. Those two arguments need to be separated.

__________________
“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
“It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
"It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
"We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

If the British government decided that they wanted to start a war with Iran and proposed a levy to finance it maybe one could consider that they were stealing money from the British public to finance a ruinous project.

__________________
When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing—they believe in anything
G.K.Chesterton

From:Kevin Trenberth U.S climate expert.
Date:Mon,12 Oct,2009

The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't.
(In an email debate over a BBC report on the apparent dip in global warming since 2001)

If you follow that argument to its logical conclusion then you're saying that any public spending that is disapproved of by one or more taxpayers should be considered theft. You can make that argument, but only if you are prepared to propose that there be no government at all, as the anarchists do. All the waffling about taxation is theft does in the healthcare argument is repeat "I don't like public healthcare" in different words, even by your explanation it is not saying anything factual about the tax system, only that the author does not like that particular item of spending. It doesn't support their argument in any way.

__________________
“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
“It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
"It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
"We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

Jo you didnt ask for anything factual about the taxation system .You asked if taxation is theft and that can only be answered by an opinion not by quoting a fact.


Your argument is that if you agree to one use of taxation then you must agree to all other uses that the government finds to spend your money or you are an anarchist.
Of course stating that paying for public healthcare by taxation is theft is another way of saying that you dont like public healthcare.

Regarding my last post..you may say that you object to the government starting a levy to finance a war against Iran, you may say that the government has no right to take your money to start this hypothetical war...you might say that the government is actually stealing your money to start the war...would you not entitled to say all of these things?
Of course if you LIKED the idea of a war with Iran you may say that its money well spent!

__________________
When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing—they believe in anything
G.K.Chesterton

From:Kevin Trenberth U.S climate expert.
Date:Mon,12 Oct,2009

The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't.
(In an email debate over a BBC report on the apparent dip in global warming since 2001)

No, I'm not saying you have to agree with the uses, but you must accept that the government has the right to levy taxes even on people who don't want to pay them unless you're an anarchist. Is there any civilisation in the world that has worked on a system of only paying for the things you want, with no-one paying taxes for something they dislike? I would strongly oppose the UK government planning an invasion of Iran, but I do not deny that they have the legal right to do so, in defiance of my wishes. I would do whatever was within my power and within the law to stop it, just as I did with regard to the invasion of Iraq, but I would not dispute the right of the government to levy taxes. Apart from anything else a fair portion of the tax I pay will already have gone to funding the UK military. I may not like it, but it is transparently not theft.

__________________
“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
“It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
"It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
"We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

True.
But you can regard or consider a levy on the public to impose a ruinous scheme on to your country( and many do see this as a ruinous scheme) as theft of your money.
If Obama put millions of taxpayers dollars into a bank account for his relatives in Kenya then it would be theft. If he appropriated billions of dollars to fund better healthcare to people that you believe should be left to pay for their own healthcare then you may believe that he has stolen that money, especially if it means a hike in the money that you pay in taxes.

__________________
When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing—they believe in anything
G.K.Chesterton

From:Kevin Trenberth U.S climate expert.
Date:Mon,12 Oct,2009

The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't.
(In an email debate over a BBC report on the apparent dip in global warming since 2001)

The former action would only be theft because it would be taken from the US government without authorisation from congress. If congress were to authorise such payments then it's not theft. Immoral, but that's a different discussion. The reason we have representative governments elected by the people is to ensure that, while governments have the right to levy and spend money, we have the right to elect someone else if we disagree with how much they're levying and what they're spending it on. Saying that you don't think the government should be spending money on something doesn't advance the argument over whether they should or not any further, except in so far as your vote is one of millions which will decide who forms the next government. The hue and cry over "taxation is theft" is simply designed to colour the argument and smear supporters of universal healthcare. If it has been used by opponents of the Iraq war it would rightly have been dismissed as absurd.

__________________
“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist” - Helder Camara
“It is not the will of God for some to have everything and others to have nothing. This cannot be God” - Oscar Romero
"It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder" - Einstein
"We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him" - CS Lewis

Stating that taxation is theft and meaning it is just saying that we should have no government and is ridiculous.

Yes I know that President Obama does not personally appropriate the funds for government projects.

The cry of taxation is theft if it uses the money unwisely will not get you the money back nor will it prevent the government unwisely using your money but for the sake of discussion I think it is a fair comment and not one to be brushed aside.

__________________
When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing—they believe in anything
G.K.Chesterton

From:Kevin Trenberth U.S climate expert.
Date:Mon,12 Oct,2009

The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't.
(In an email debate over a BBC report on the apparent dip in global warming since 2001)

The phrase "Taxation is theft" belongs solidly to the Anarchist movement, and all that that entails.

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" ... It's not as though he proved anything, he only refuted my evidence. ..." Archangel 04.01.09

" ... this egregiously ignorant christian ... Archangel 03.09.09

“Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil.”

I think we have covered that Penfold

__________________
When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing—they believe in anything
G.K.Chesterton

From:Kevin Trenberth U.S climate expert.
Date:Mon,12 Oct,2009

The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't.
(In an email debate over a BBC report on the apparent dip in global warming since 2001)

Wonderful! I like these forums.

Yes taxation is theft, it is not the fall back for me but the prime and main example of evil in a mixed economy.

It applies to all taxation in general.

I would like to formally debate someone on this if I could, I have reached the point where I would be very surprised if anyone on earth could form sound argument concluding taxation can be moral.

Who brought this up, It would be so exciting to meet someone who has come to the correct conclusion without hearing it from me!

Well, if that be true, you shouldn't use publicly financed roads, and you should drill your own wells and build your own sewer systems instead of tapping into the commonwealth. And, as far as police protection and fire protection, protect yourself and fight your own fires.

And, if you want a business contract enforced, do it yourself. Don't rely on the publicly-financed judicial system.

Don't be mooching off us taxpayers who are paying for all these services.

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Brother, you can believe in stones as long as you do not hurl them at me. Wafa Sultan

“War is an American way to teach geography,” British soldier

War is sweet to those who have not tasted it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach. – Pindar

Sounds like you want to debate that matter?