I know this should probably be on the Abortion thread, but I want a one on one debate with someone on this.
Dsadevil, keep score.

I am against Abortion. I'm waiting for my opponent to speak first.

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The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the most of everything that comes along their way.

I am willing to debate but before I decide, I would like the topic more clearly defined. Do you mean you are against abortion of all types under any circumstances. If you would like I would state the topic specifically as....."Abortion in a just society would be left to the choice of the pregnant woman." If that is acceptable to you, I will take the affirmative, However, morally I am against abortion but would work hard to win the debate. If there is someone more passionate than I, I would gladly give up my place. It just seems you have been waiting awhile.

thanks

DSA: I assume you would be the judge we are trying to convince?

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epaphras_faith

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose. (Jim Elliot)

I believe abortion is wrong in all circumstances. Whether the mother is raped or even has a chance of dying during childbirth.

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The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the most of everything that comes along their way.

Yeah, I would be that judge. I go by a standard LD judge paradigm, which judging by your phrasing of the resolution I assume you won't have a problem with?

Also, look to the decisions I've already made for more clues on how I decide rounds.

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[URL=http://dsadevil.blogspot.com]The Debate Link[/URL]

Lincoln-Douglas debate: Where minimization of negative externalities isn't just pedantic, its a rebuttal.

Respicio Per Virtutus Solus

Very well then:

I will post an affirmative construct tomorrow a.m.

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epaphras_faith

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose. (Jim Elliot)

INTRO:

Individual Choice has long been acknowledged as the principle that founds a society. The ancient Hebrew Texts of the old testament held that a person was reponsible for the choices that the made. Even the 10 commandments were given and enforced by the ancient jewish people.

However, they did not eliminate a person's choice. It was law at that time that children were property and that the parents had the right to even terminate the life a child any time prior to them coming of age. Their society honored children though as God required it of them. Death for a child was prescribed by law as it was for an adult. It was left to the decision of the parent.

The Christian religion holds that Jesus died on a cross to set the free. Free from what? Free to choose the very God they had chosen to kill. Or not to choose.

Therefore, I affirm that Abortion, in a just society, would be left to the choice of the pregnant woman.

Definitions: Just: I choose to define this word based on ancient greek usage of the word that is translated justified. It is a legal term. it refers to a courts declaration of innocent AND Right. In other words not only not guilty but indeed the right (or righteous) act occurred.

Abortion: The termination of a pregnancy at any stage through the use of artifice.

Choice: The act of determining to act.

Contention 1: Not all circumstances are within the controll of the pregnant woman.
A. Pregnant women are sometimes pregnant by choice, but not always.
B. Those that are pregnant by choice are not always aware of the circumstances surrounding them.
Contention II: A just society is one that values choice above other paradigms.
A: Justice demands that one not only be innocent but right.
B: Determining what is right is a matter of absoultes.
C: The question becomes who determines what is absolute. There are many possibilities
1. Man
2. God
3. Allah
4. Zoroaster
5. etc.
D: In order to determine what is right, one must be able to see into the heart of another. Simply making a law is not enough. That would not eliminate the necessity of choice. It would only attach consequences to that choice.
E. A just society would not attach consequences to a choice without knowing the absolutes.
F. Choice is valued in all religions. The Christian one in particular.

Contention III: It is only necessary to prove that one instance of it being right for the pregnant woman to choose would affirm the topic as written.

Case Study:

A twenty four year old woman is raped and becomes pregnant. She discovers this within the first 3 weeks of the pregnancy. She is referred to a specialist by her PCP for an OB/GYN and internal medicine consults. The doctors all conclude the same thing. Should she continue this pregnancy for any longer than 3 weeks then both she and the child will die. She opts to have an abortion.

Contention IV: The abortion in the case study is right. Neither would have lived if the pregnancy had continued.
A: The choice to terminate the pregnancy or to continue is rightfully placed in the hands of the pregnant woman. If it were placed in the hands of the lawyers or even the doctors then the decision whether she lives or dies is in the hands of another without her consent.
B: It would be wrong to choose whether or not someone else dies when they have broken no laws. She was raped and a victim, not the criminal. A just society would not impose that kind of sentencing on a non-criminal.
C: Even the christian view would concur as would the old testament view as would the muslim view. All three of those major fundamental religions require that a person be convicted of a crime on the testimony of more than one witness to sentence them to death. There would be no such sentence in this case.

Contention V: Abortion is not desirable to a just society. However, the elimination of a persons choice is abhorrant to both man and God.

Threfore, One instance being proven, the concept of choice proven, I still affirm that Abortion, in a just society, would be left to the choice of the pregnant woman.

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epaphras_faith

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose. (Jim Elliot)

"Individual Choice has long been acknowledged as the principle that founds a society. The ancient Hebrew Texts of the old testament held that a person was reponsible for the choices that the made."

Those choices were based on whether or not they decided to follow God and his laws, not whether or not they wanted to eliminate one of His created.



"It was law at that time that children were property and that the parents had the right to even terminate the life a child any time prior to them coming of age."

I have no idea where you found this information. Maybe they followed man's law that they could terminate a child's life, that doesn't mean it was right. It is the law in our country right now that you can terminiate a babies life while they are in their mother's womb. That doesn't mean that it is right.



"Their society honored children though as God required it of them. Death for a child was prescribed by law as it was for an adult. It was left to the decision of the parent."

I, to, could make a decision to kill my six-year-old son. That doesn't mean it is a moral decision. Again, what law were they following? God's law? I doubt it.



"The Christian religion holds that Jesus died on a cross to set the free. Free from what? Free to choose the very God they had chosen to kill. Or not to choose."

Christian's believe Jesus died on the cross to set them free from an eternal death. They believe man was given free will all the way back since Adam.



"Therefore, I affirm that Abortion, in a just society, would be left to the choice of the pregnant woman."

So, based on Christian's being able to choose whether or not they worship God, you are saying that relates to people having the choice of whether or not to have an abortion? Freedom of choice does not override freedom to live.
Bible verses that relate to abortion:

The LORD GOD makes us in the womb. Job 31:15; Isaiah 44:2, 44:24, 49:5.

Did not HE (GOD) that made me in the womb make him? and did not
One (GOD) fashion us in the womb. Job 31:15

Thus saith the LORD that make thee, and formed thee
from the womb. Isaiah 44:2

Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and HE that formed
thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things. Isaiah 44:24

Isaiah 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb
to be HIS servant.

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in your mother's womb I chose you.
Before you were born I set you apart. I appointed you to be a
prophet to the nations."

Psalms 139:13 Certainly you made my kidneys, you wove me together
in my mother's womb.

139:15 my bones were not hidden from you, when I was made in secret,
and sewed together in the depths of the earth.

139:16 Your eyes saw me when I was a fetus. All the days ordained
forme were recorded in your scroll before one of them came into
existence.

1:44 For take note, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears,
the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

Exodus 21:22-24 If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely
but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the
woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Ps 139:15-16 My frame was not hidden from Thee, when I was made in secret, {and} skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Thy book they were all written, the days that were ordained {for me} when as yet there was not one of them.

Job 10:18-19
18 'Why then hast Thou brought me out of the womb? Would that I had died and
no eye had seen me!
19 'I should have been as though I had not been, carried from womb to tomb.'



"Contention 1: Not all circumstances are within the controll of the pregnant woman.
A. Pregnant women are sometimes pregnant by choice, but not always."

Over 99% of the time they are. Anyways, for that last less-then-.0000001%, rape is an act of violence, murder is an act of violence, you don't revenge violence with worse violence.



"B. Those that are pregnant by choice are not always aware of the circumstances surrounding them."

Those who are trying to get an abortion are not always given the right information surrounding that. In fact, it happens much more then you would think. Planned Parenthood, the largest abortion industry in the world, has had lawsuits filed against them for not providing the right information. Also for: lying, not getting permission from a parent or guardian before trying to get the girl to get an abortion, and hiding statutory rape crimes.



"Contention II: A just society is one that values choice above other paradigms.”

Wrong, a just society is one that values life over all choices.



“ A: Justice demands that one not only be innocent but right.”

An unborn baby is the most innocent thing on the planet, it has committed no wrong. Yet, according to our countries laws, it has less rights then many animals. Most liberals are out to kill it.



“D: In order to determine what is right, one must be able to see into the heart of another. Simply making a law is not enough. That would not eliminate the necessity of choice. It would only attach consequences to that choice.”

Exactly, you cannot stop people from murdering, but you can make them think twice about it.



“ E. A just society would not attach consequences to a choice without knowing the absolutes.”

Murder is the one thing almost all people agree is wrong. Murder is the crime known as the “absolute wrong”. Based on what you are saying, there are no just societies. Every society bases there laws on either the people or on a combination of the people and God. Mostly it is a combination of both. Since God is an absolute, then any society that based there laws 100% on Him would be just.



“F. Choice is valued in all religions. The Christian one in particular.”

Yes, but God expects His people to make the right choice based on His teachings.



“Case Study:

A twenty four year old woman is raped and becomes pregnant. She discovers this within the first 3 weeks of the pregnancy. She is referred to a specialist by her PCP for an OB/GYN and internal medicine consults. The doctors all conclude the same thing. Should she continue this pregnancy for any longer than 3 weeks then both she and the child will die. She opts to have an abortion.”

Case Study:
A homeless woman who is a prostitute has a baby as a result of an accident. The woman needs to work in order to get food. However, since she has a baby, she has to watch it. It is impossible for her to watch her baby, and still make enough money in order for her to survive. She concludes that if she keeps the baby then she will not have enough food and she will die. She leaves the baby in a dumpster and it dies.




“Contention IV: The abortion in the case study is right. Neither would have lived if the pregnancy had continued.”

The abortion in my case study is also right. Neither would have lived if the baby had not been killed.



“A: The choice to terminate the pregnancy or to continue is rightfully placed in the hands of the pregnant woman. If it were placed in the hands of the lawyers or even the doctors then the decision whether she lives or dies is in the hands of another without her consent.”

The choice to live was wrongfully taken out of the fetus’s hands and placed into the mothers. The mother decided to take her babies life instead of giving up her own. Looking over at my son and his innocence, I can’t imagine life without him. I would gladly die for him.



“B: It would be wrong to choose whether or not someone else dies when they have broken no laws. She was raped and a victim, not the criminal. A just society would not impose that kind of sentencing on a non-criminal.”

As you said, it would be wrong to choose whether or not someone else dies when they have broken no laws. The baby inside its mother will be slaughtered without a choice. It was raped of its life and murdered like a criminal, when it was really the victim. A just society would not impose that kind of sentencing on a non-criminal. I guess we don’t live in a just society.



“ C: Even the christian view would concur as would the old testament view as would the muslim view.”

I have already refuted you saying that the Christian and Old testament view would concur. As for the Muslim view:
"Losers are those who killed their children foolishly, due to their lack of knowledge, and prohibited what God has provided for them, and followed innovations attributed to God. They have gone astray, they are not guided." (6:140)
"You shall not kill any (Nafs) person - for GOD has made life
sacred - except in the course of justice……."(17:33)

"You shall not kill your children due to fear of poverty. We provide
for them, as well as for you. Killing them is a gross offense"(17:31)

"Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really
prohibited for you: You shall not set up idols besides
Him. You shall honor your parents. You shall not kill
your children from fear of poverty - we provide for you
and for them. You shall not commit gross sins, obvious or
hidden. You shall not kill any (Nafs) person - GOD has made
life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His
commandments to you, that you may understand."
[6:151]

"Then we developed the drop into a hanging (embryo), then
developed the hanging (embryo) into a bite-size (fetus),
then created the bite-size (fetus) into bones, then
covered the bones with flesh. We thus produce (Anshaa) a new
creature. Most blessed is GOD, the best Creator." [23:14]


“Contention V: Abortion is not desirable to a just society. However, the elimination of a persons choice is abhorrant to both man and God.”

Sorry to use a cliché, but does that mean I have the choice to kill the man who rear-ended me in the parking lot? How about the lady who cut me off at an intersection? I think what you should have said was this: The elimination of a person is abhorrent to both man and God.


“Threfore, One instance being proven, the concept of choice proven, I still affirm that Abortion, in a just society, would be left to the choice of the pregnant woman.”

The concept of choice does not override the concept of life.

__________________
The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the most of everything that comes along their way.

am i going to get a response here?

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The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the most of everything that comes along their way.

I waited for a couple of weeks the least you could do is giv eme some time. I accepted another debate as there was no response from you.

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epaphras_faith

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose. (Jim Elliot)

Well:

Much of my opponents arguments are based on what occurs within the United States. I have not used the United states as an example of a just society nor would I.

As for the christian view that Jesus died to "set men free" That is absolutely correct. That can be found in the evangelical dictionary of theology. Additionally, In Alfread Eddersheim's "The life and Times of Jesus the Messiah" and the writings of Josephus and in The books of leviticus and Deuteronomy and the Exodus one finds many examples of God's law declaring a person's life forfeit for Choices they have made.

God's value is on the choice not on the life. Life on this earth from the christian view is temporal but there is an eternal beyond.

My opponent states that 99% of abortions are simply by choice. Need a source for this.

Likewise, My opponent again states that people are not always given all the information. True, but has nothing to with a Just society. A Just society does not currently exist.

Again My opponent agrees with me in contention II part D. He is right we can make them think twice about it. But notice that still leaves choice. To take the choice away is to remove life. It is was torturers and rapists do. There are consequences to the choices we make. Absolutely!, But, that is not a removal of choice.

I shall narrow the scope as it seems that there are only two real issues to debate. 1) The issue that in a just society the principle of choice is above that of life and 2) What is a just society.

In my opponents construction he issues another case study. As the items are not parallel then they are non comparable. It is apples and oranges. Therefore, he has not refuted the case study. Its principle stands.

In part F. My opponent again agrees that choice is valued in all religions and that God expects people to make the right choice. Correct. But note, he doesn't say that choice is removed it only has consequences.

In part E. My opponent essentially agreed that God's laws are the absolute and that a just society would not attach consequences without knowing the absolutes.

Murder is Wrong. God is Just. However, God is also merciful, kind, loving, patient.

A note, Haley's handbook , josephus, and "early biblical customs" all point to the fact that children and women were considered property and that the husband had the right to determine life or death based on God's laws. It is in Leviticus, I believe.

In any case, Choice is paramount. My opponent does have the choice to attack the man who rear-ended him. The choice has not been eliminated. It has been attached with consequences. The woman who is pregnant should have the right of choice in a just society. The society would consider the her choice paramount. Since the baby is unable to choose then it would be useful for the baby to have an advocate.

Perhaps a court hearing with advocates on both sides. The choice is ultimately left to the pregnant woman but she is allowed to hear all sides. Once she has made a choice, then and only then would a judge decide if the choice was just or not.

I affirm my position

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epaphras_faith

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose. (Jim Elliot)

"Additionally, In Alfread Eddersheim's "The life and Times of Jesus the Messiah" and the writings of Josephus and in The books of leviticus and Deuteronomy and the Exodus one finds many examples of God's law declaring a person's life forfeit for Choices they have made."

Like if you choose to murder someone, your life will be "forfeit". Not, as in the case of the unborn baby, if you have done nothing.



"God's value is on the choice not on the life. Life on this earth from the christian view is temporal but there is an eternal beyond."

That does not mean God does not care what choices we make. He does have rules for people to follow, that is why we have the ten commandments and the bible.



"My opponent states that 99% of abortions are simply by choice. Need a source for this."

Actually what I said was that over 99% of woman were pregnant by choice. As to what you are saying, the only abortions that aren't by choice are miscarriages.



"I shall narrow the scope as it seems that there are only two real issues to debate. 1) The issue that in a just society the principle of choice is above that of life..."

I can't believe that you would find many people who believe the "principle of choice is above that of life". Going by that philosophy, we should have no laws of government and be able to do what you want.



"In my opponents construction he issues another case study. As the items are not parallel then they are non comparable. It is apples and oranges. Therefore, he has not refuted the case study. Its principle stands."

I was trying to point out that the fetus was human and should indeed have all the rights of any other human.



"In part F. My opponent again agrees that choice is valued in all religions and that God expects people to make the right choice. Correct. But note, he doesn't say that choice is removed it only has consequences."

Correct choice is valued. Not choice over life. All major religions believe that God gave us free will, that is why we can make choices. Choice is never removed because God is giving us the option of whether to love and worship him, if you don't, there will be consequences.



"A note, Haley's handbook , josephus, and "early biblical customs" all point to the fact that children and women were considered property and that the husband had the right to determine life or death based on God's laws. It is in Leviticus, I believe."

I'd really like to see an exact verse here.



"In any case, Choice is paramount. My opponent does have the choice to attack the man who rear-ended him. The choice has not been eliminated. It has been attached with consequences. The woman who is pregnant should have the right of choice in a just society. The society would consider the her choice paramount. Since the baby is unable to choose then it would be useful for the baby to have an advocate."

Some unborn babies do have advocates. There are extreme radicals who go around and kill abortion doctors, would you say that is OK?



"Perhaps a court hearing with advocates on both sides. The choice is ultimately left to the pregnant woman but she is allowed to hear all sides. Once she has made a choice, then and only then would a judge decide if the choice was just or not."

The Judge could use his power and Choose to not allow the woman to kill her child. Also, could the woman choose to not go to the court hearing?

If choice is so important, why do you believe we should take choice away? What you are trying to do is take the choice of life out of the babies hands and put it in another.

Without life, there is no choice; therefore life is above choice.

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The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the most of everything that comes along their way.

I won't comment on the post itself, since this isn't my debate, however, ROCC, the quote in your sig is taken completely out of context. The statement was said ironically; Sanger was not prescribing it.

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Save me from this drunken jockocracy

Anytime you want Crim, I can come up with numerous quotes of attrocious things she did say.

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The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the most of everything that comes along their way.

ROCC, then put those quotes in your sig, not a quote taken out of context.

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Save me from this drunken jockocracy

Then please, show us the full context of the quote made by the eugenicist and racist Margaret Sanger.

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The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the most of everything that comes along their way.