There have been some recent claims by evolutionists about abiogenesis that seem to have arisen only over the last 5 or 10 years. I think it’s a subject that should be explored in a structured way in this forum. I have propositions for two formal debates here, I’ll argue the affirmative on the first, and the negative on the second. They can be either/or, or I’ll do them both simultaneously, or one after the other.

The term “abiogenesis” has been around for hundreds of years, its concept has been around for thousands, all the way back to Aristotle. It is a term that refers to natural processes, a spontaneous generation of life from non-life by random, unguided processes. It is a conflictive view to any kind of purposive, supernatural creation. Yet we see this at talkorigins;

CB090: Evolution without abiogenesis

I don't think that anyone disagrees that there once was no life on earth and now there is. I know of no worldview that disputes that. But in my view, the rest of that paragraph is completely false. So I’ll take the affirmative on this one;

Resolved; Supernatural creation is in no way related to abiogenesis. One has to be true and the other has to be false.

I’ll take suggestions on an improvement/rewording for this resolution. My point is that creation does not harmonize with abiogenesis, it conflicts with abiogenesis. Abiogenesis in not just ANY origin of life as talkorigins asserts, it is only about a NATURAL origin of life. Evolution does not automatically have it. Creation is NOT a theory of abiogenesis.

Another recent assertion, that seems to be more widely claimed than the above, is that evolution and abiogenesis are not related. It’s been worded like this;

Abiogenesis is not evolution, and evolution is not abiogenesis. The two concepts are unrelated.

I’ll do the negative on the claim that the two concepts are unrelated.

For either/both, I’m thinking of our usual 5/4 post structure, with something in the neighborhood of a 72 hour time limit between posts. As always, I’ll be co-operative in working out these details. As a refreshing change from the past, I would like to see some pretty tight word limits this time, to make them easy to read, and bring out some skills in concise word processing.

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Why is it that our children can't read a Bible in school, but they can in prison?

Just so we're all clear here, you're going to redefine the word abiogenesis to mean what you want it to mean, then someone is supposed to argue that the definition you made up isn't valid?

And "Abiogenesis is not evolution, and evolution is not abiogenesis." is not a "recent" claim. I would imagine you've been told this since you began claiming they were, yet every time seems to be a surprise to you.

You have yet to even attempt to show how they are the same, as you claim they are. Your best buddy Archie tried, and the best he could do was list a bunch of sites that stated that they weren't the same. I have a feeling you'll do much the same.

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"Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night."
Isaac Asimov

"Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived"
Oscar Wilde

If you assume that everyone is on the same page as you, then you are bound to hit the same pitfalls you are hitting now, and the actual debate hasn't even started yet.

If you try to flesh out your definitions and premises during the debate, you'll spend your whole debate doing that and never get to the actual debate. in this debate you'd spend it debating what talk origins actually said, rather than debating whether what they said was true or not. Its a waste of time arguing about a definition, or trying to come up with a definition halfway through the debate.

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when man tried to understand nature, theism was born
when man tried to understand God, atheism was born

I kept these three posts because they were the only ones left on-topic. I suggest that you take unkerpaulie's advice and T.Q's comments and come up with a workable resolution.

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"The problem with Socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money."
- Margaret Thatcher

"We had the machine scared and scrambling, and for them it is just the beginning of an election year filled with surprises. They will be challenged again and again across this country. When there's trouble in Massachusetts, there's trouble everywhere -- and now they know it." Senator Scott Brown (R MA)

My post #1, combined with what unkerpaulie copy/pasted from my deleted post, makes my position clear enough. If anyone else shows an interest, we'll go from there. We'll give it one month....11-31-09. If no one bites by then, you can just delete this whole thread, Mr moderator. I'll then decide if I start this in the creo/evo forum here, or if I take it to the EvC forums.

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Why is it that our children can't read a Bible in school, but they can in prison?

I urged you to stay on topic and focus on a resolution. Instead, you got into a micturating contest with T.Q and me. Bad play on your part.

Try again. If you need assistance on crafting a resolution that is ameanable to both sides, I'm willing to give it a try.
I applaud your attempt to revitalize the formal debate forum. That's my goal as well, but you can't engage in a petty spat in THIS forum. I can move the entire set of deleted posts to the general forum (I think I can do that), but I don't see any reason to do so, quite frankly.


In fact, I plan on deleting THIS off-topic post in a few days as well.

The ball's in your court, Marc.

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"The problem with Socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money."
- Margaret Thatcher

"We had the machine scared and scrambling, and for them it is just the beginning of an election year filled with surprises. They will be challenged again and again across this country. When there's trouble in Massachusetts, there's trouble everywhere -- and now they know it." Senator Scott Brown (R MA)

Off-topic, but...

I'd be interested in seeing this topic over at EvC, Marc.

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"Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night."
Isaac Asimov

"Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived"
Oscar Wilde

We'd be better off just moving every science based discussion there. But some people don't like having to stay on topic and being forced to actually cite their evidence.

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"You are, of course, free to make your own calls on how much rationality you want to impose upon yourself." - Kronus

We're gonna WAIT.

(Flim-flam-man, 1967)

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Why is it that our children can't read a Bible in school, but they can in prison?