[Crime is absolutely out of control in South Africa and even worse than has been reported. The statistics are mind-boggling. The South African murder rate is ten times that of the US. And what's worse, not only do most crimes go unreported, but most of what does get reported is never solved.]

South Africa's Murder Rate Far Worse than Reported

"Victims' surveys have consistently uncovered between 60% and
70% more crime than reported by official sources. Upwards of
50% of crime in many serious categories goes unreported."

http://www.rense.com/general39/reose.htm


[White separatist community experiences rapid growth as Blacks continue their destruction of South Africa.]

White separatism on the rise in South Africa

"An Afrikaner enclave on the edge of a desert is being flooded
with applications from whites disillusioned with South Africa's
black government. Now, due to fear that South Africa will follow
Zimbabwe into political and racial turmoil, Orania is beginning
to fill up."

http://www.suntimes.co.za/2002/12/01/insight/in20.asp


[Ah, "racial diversity"...ain't it great???

2001: The USA had 16,110 murders - South Africa had 21,108

2001: Population of USA: 282 million - South Africa: only 44 million]

SA twice as deadly as the US

Cape Town - Government's claim that South Africa was not a crime capital and compared favourably with the rest of the world is refuted by US crime figures, says official opposition chief whip Douglas Gibson.

In a statement on Monday, Gibson said in 2002 it was reported by The Economist that the US had 16,110 murders but in South Africa in 2001 - the most recent available figures - there were 21,108 murders.

With figures released as a result of DA action taken in terms of access to information legislation, it was found in 2000 that the previous year there had been 21,995 reported cases of murder, of which 10,696 had been referred to court. A total of 4,007 convictions were reported in that year.

Gibson noted that the US population was more than six times that of South Africa.

http://www.news24.com/News24/0,,2_1410111,00.html

An Apology to Blacks from a white South African

We apologize for giving you doctors and free medical care, as a result of which you have been able to survive plagues and catastrophes and grow in numbers;

We apologize for teaching you to read and write, and for building you thousands of schools which we have repaired after you vandalized them and burned them down, After all, if you could not read how could you have learned the words of Karl Marx, Mao Tse-tung, and others who taught you how evil we are and how oppressed you are?

We apologize for building factories and highways and buildings that gave you employment;

We apologize for developing farms that to this day feed the bulk of Africa;

We apologize for providing you with warm clothing made of fabric instead of leaving you wearing the animal skins that you wore before our arrival;

We apologize for taking minerals from the earth, which you neither used, nor wanted, nor even knew were there;

We apologize for those among us who have established welfare organizations and have devoted their entire life towards making life richer and better for your people;

We apologize that we have built roads and railroad tracks between towns and cities which you now use every day without thinking;

We apologize for paying the lion's share of taxation while spending less on ourselves than on you;

We apologize for giving you law and order and a strong central government that prevented your own warrior nations like the Zulu and the Matabele from slaughtering black people by the hundreds of thousands as they did year in and year out before we came;

We apologize for teaching you the English language which has opened to you the entire world of European thought, culture, and commerce;

For all these sins we humbly beg forgiveness, and if you will only accept our apology we will be happy to take back all of the above evil and horrible things we have done to you and return to our European homeland.


A Warning for Americans: A Message from a South African

People used to say that South Africa was 20 years behind the rest of the Western world. Television, for example, came late to South Africa (but so did pornography and the gay rights movement).

Today, however, South Africa may be the grim model of the future Western world, for events in America reveals trends chillingly similar to those that destroyed our country.

America's structures are of "Western Culture". Your Congress, your lobbying groups, your free speech, and the way ordinary Americans either get involved or ignore politics are peculiarly your "Western Culture", not the way most of the world operates. But the fact that only about a third of Americans deem it important to vote is horrifying in light of how close you are to losing your Western character.

Writing letters to the press, manning stands at county fairs, hosting fund-raising dinners, attending rallies, setting up conferences, writing your Congressman -- that is what you know, and what you are comfortable with. Those are the political methods you've created for yourselves to keep your country on track and to ensure political accountability,with freedom and justice for all.

But woe to you if -- or more likely, when -- the rules change. Americans may soon find themselves unable or unwilling to stand up to challenge the new political methods that will be the inevitable result of the ethnic metamorphosis now taking place in America. Unable to cope with the new rules of the game -- violence, mob riots, intimidation through accusations of racism, demands for proportionality based on racial numbers, and all the other social and political weapons used by the have-nots to bludgeon treasure and power from the haves -- Americans, like others before them, will no doubt cave in. They will compromise away their independence and ultimately their way of life.

That is exactly what happened in South Africa. I know, because I was there and I saw it happen.

Continued:

http://www.eaglesup.com/warning.html

So what exactly do you think should be done if you had your way? Return to apartheid?
You seem to be forgetting that tolerance of others and striving for eqaulity are two of the central tenents to western culture. The articels you quote seem to imply that the only way to preserve 'western culture' is sacrificing those two. So by western culture you really mean white supremecy?

But I hear that racial oppression of the majority by the minority is down.


The system changed, how can you expect it to be stable for a long time?

weigh the freedom from racial oppression against grossly inflated crime and a drastic drop in national productivity. the only thing that can be done is hope that mandella and his cadre seize the controls and lead the country properly, but thats hard to do with a population that doesnt appreciate a system of civilization

south africa is like a case of cultural displacement, in a way similar to africans being migrated into an american/european system. in this case the system was brought into south africa, but the effect is the same more or less.

yet in certain other 3rd world countries, particularly in the caribbean, the effects of displacement is a lot less severe, and the countries tend to do rather well. haiti, however, is an exception, where there is very little american culture and yet they have been in years of industrial and political turmoil. yet, its very likely that haiti can greatly improve if its leadership is reformed, because haitians are generally hard-workers, although they would rather scam their way into a profit

the only thing i can think of to help the situation in south africa is look at other examples in history where countries that went through a similar conflict came through and worked out their politics and culture... i love this subject and i'll definitely look it up

Originally Posted by jerichoholic104

But I hear that racial oppression of the majority by the minority is down.
The system changed, how can you expect it to be stable for a long time?

South Africa is a perfect example of what happens when International Liberals ban together to push their idea of social justice. You wind up with chaos "run" by a bunch of thugs. A perfect example of cutting one's nose off to spite one's face. I wonder how smug those Liberals are now, knowing what they've succeeded in accomplishing.

Originally Posted by JPSartre12

South Africa is a perfect example of what happens when International Liberals ban together to push their idea of social justice. You wind up with chaos "run" by a bunch of thugs. A perfect example of cutting one's nose off to spite one's face. I wonder how smug those Liberals are now, knowing what they've succeeded in accomplishing.

I don't want to get into a whole XXXXXXX match here JP, but it seems to me like that's a pretty simplistic and slanted view of the situation in South Africa.

I don't see many "liberals" waving banners supporting the chaos that has ensued. The simple fact is, the situation got out of control and got violent, it wasn't anyone's desire to see that happen, nor was it necessarily an inevitable but overlooked outcome. The thugs have been allowed to operate above the law, that isn't supported by lib or con.

Waxy

Originally Posted by Waxy

I don't want to get into a whole XXXXXXX match here JP, but it seems to me like that's a pretty simplistic and slanted view of the situation in South Africa.

I don't see many "liberals" waving banners supporting the chaos that has ensued. The simple fact is, the situation got out of control and got violent, it wasn't anyone's desire to see that happen, nor was it necessarily an inevitable but overlooked outcome. The thugs have been allowed to operate above the law, that isn't supported by lib or con.

Waxy

I agree that they aren't waving the Liberal Banner NOW. They created the chaos then walked away from it. If you had been in the US during Apartheid, you'd have seen the Liberals railing continuously about the need for American companies to divest in SA. When companies felt the liberal wrath to their corporate bottom lines (through boycotts of SA-made products, for example), they divested and left the country in shambles. Is that a surprising result to Liberals? It was exactly what they wanted, but now they turn a deaf ear to SA. Liberals are the biggest hypocrites in the world. They railed against a white-ruled, civil SA but stand mute to a corrupt-run bankrupt, crime-ridden black ruled SA. I say: "be careful what you wish for; you just might get it."

Originally Posted by JPSartre12

I agree that they aren't waving the Liberal Banner NOW. They created the chaos then walked away from it. If you had been in the US during Apartheid, you'd have seen the Liberals railing continuously about the need for American companies to divest in SA. When companies felt the liberal wrath to their corporate bottom lines (through boycotts of SA-made products, for example), they divested and left the country in shambles. Is that a surprising result to Liberals? It was exactly what they wanted, but now they turn a deaf ear to SA. Liberals are the biggest hypocrites in the world. They railed against a white-ruled, civil SA but stand mute to a corrupt-run bankrupt, crime-ridden black ruled SA. I say: "be careful what you wish for; you just might get it."

I guess I have a different level of exposure.

There have been plenty of stories in the news and in print (even National Geographic, a very "liberal" publication) about the situation in SA. No one is denying that the situation got out of control due to violent black uprising. That wasn't the preferred or predicted outcome on anyone's part, but it is now the reality. The amount of civil and human rights violations occuring there is staggering.

There are people dealing with this and attempting to produce positive change, and more than likely you'd refer to them as "liberals". Unfortunately, the conventional, peaceful means that were so effective previously are useless given the current situation.

Not to mention the fact that it's pretty hard to get the world to focus on the plight of SA when we're at war in Iraq and terror.

I'm currently trying to find a job for a friend of a family friend who's son is trying to emigrate to Canada from SA for obvious reasons. He's a mechanical engineer, but in order to be accepted, he needs proof of immediate employment.

I also have a cousin in law that emigrated from SA about 10 years ago. His parents still live in SA. They are all coming to spend a week with us at the end of July, I can't wait to get a better handle on the situation with some first hand experience.

I'll look forward to revisiting this conversation then.

Waxy

Originally Posted by Waxy

I guess I have a different level of exposure.

There have been plenty of stories in the news and in print (even National Geographic, a very "liberal" publication) about the situation in SA. No one is denying that the situation got out of control due to violent black uprising. That wasn't the preferred or predicted outcome on anyone's part, but it is now the reality. The amount of civil and human rights violations occuring there is staggering.

There are people dealing with this and attempting to produce positive change, and more than likely you'd refer to them as "liberals". Unfortunately, the conventional, peaceful means that were so effective previously are useless given the current situation.

Not to mention the fact that it's pretty hard to get the world to focus on the plight of SA when we're at war in Iraq and terror.

I'm currently trying to find a job for a friend of a family friend who's son is trying to emigrate to Canada from SA for obvious reasons. He's a mechanical engineer, but in order to be accepted, he needs proof of immediate employment.

I also have a cousin in law that emigrated from SA about 10 years ago. His parents still live in SA. They are all coming to spend a week with us at the end of July, I can't wait to get a better handle on the situation with some first hand experience.

I'll look forward to revisiting this conversation then.

Waxy

I hope that you will share their thoughts with us. I have had only limited contact with an Afrikaner associate that I trained some years back. His stories were "interesting" to say the least.

Originally Posted by unkerpaulie

weigh the freedom from racial oppression against grossly inflated crime and a drastic drop in national productivity.

I am quite certain that the south arfican economic growth has been better since the apartheid system was abolished...

Originally Posted by Eddie

I am quite certain that the south arfican economic growth has been better since the apartheid system was abolished...

23% Unemployment isn't anything to crow about. If it wasn't for gold and precious stones, the country would be in even worse shape. Add to that a murder rate that is 9-10X higher than the US's and you have a recipe for disaster.

Indeed, but his point was that in the past decade things have been better than now despite aparteid being abolished. Blaming all the problems on 'dumb black liberals' is oversimplifing drastically.

When you take a group of people with no experience running anything more then a small village. Then have that group run an entire country problems are going to arise. The overall effects are not much different then the democratization of Russia and the fall of communism. Russia went through huge problems. With the fact that the people who ran Russia before was still their to help in the transformation and Russia still had the problems they did should show that when an inexperienced group take over the problems are going to be even worse.

A Chinese system of transformation would have been preferable for stablity in South Africa. A slow but steady transformation that would have kept all government institutions in place as apartied was dismantled would have allowed for the blacks to gain experience in positions of power.