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Moses what did God really tell you?: Originally Posted by Nallyo When you have God, you can trenscend many of the physical laws governing the universe now. What if he created things at different places and decided to give them a constant ...
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2004, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nallyo
When you have God, you can trenscend many of the physical laws governing the universe now. What if he created things at different places and decided to give them a constant speed? He did not have to create everything at a central point, as is being inferred.

Also, reptiles were created during the same day as the rest of land animals. In the book of Job, you see that dinosaurs and humans did live together.
No they didnt, an iguana, a lizard, a crocodile are not dinosaurs, there reptiles. Its like saying humans and tigers are the same because they are mammals.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2004, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nallyo
Also, reptiles were created during the same day as the rest of land animals. In the book of Job, you see that dinosaurs and humans did live together.
Well, really dinosaurs are neither birds or reptiles but this does just highlight his point, if they did live together, why aren't they mentioned in the bible or in other texts of the same era and what explainantion is given for their disappearance, same with all the now extinct ancient animals?
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Old 03-11-2004, 09:36 AM
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Tasty and plotter, please clarify your arguments. I'm not quite sure what you are saying.
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Old 03-11-2004, 11:00 AM
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When you have God, you can trenscend many of the physical laws governing the universe now.
That's simpleton theology. God created the laws of the universe and then broke them just because he can. Creationism explains nothing because it resorts to miracle to explain everything. Thus, it makes it fruitless to even attempt to explain nature in a rational way because at the base of it all is a god who changes the rules as he goes. Whatever we don't understand can be attributed to magic by an unseen being and we don't have to search for explanations any more.
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What if he created things at different places and decided to give them a constant speed?
Right. The old "god created light on the way to earth" argument. One problem with that is that we observe events that occur at great distances from earth. It isn't just light but the whole spectrum of energy. In 1987 a supernova was observed. This supernova is close enough to earth that its distance can be measured by several methods. It is 170,000 light years away. Several predictions have been made about this supernova that have been found to be true. For example, the presence of Co-56 and Co-57 by gamma ray emission and by the light caused in the gases around the supernova by this radiation. The decay curve of these was also predicted and has conformed exactly to what was predicted. Furthermore, it was predicted that the shock wave from the supernova would light up the ring (1.37 light years in diameter) of debris that had been ejected from the star earlier. Since the mid 1990s astronomers have been watching that happen. It is just now reaching the maximum. You can see it the picture linked at the bottom.

What I am saying is that your claim is that your god created history. Your god created evidence of events that never really happened. You are saying that rather than predicting the course of events that are following natural laws that are understood, scientists are predicting the nature of the lies that your god created. Your god lied to us and created a history of events that never happened.
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He did not have to create everything at a central point, as is being inferred.
And he didn't have to make it look as if everything is expanding from a central point. He didn't have to make it look like a star went supernova 170,000 years ago if the universe is only 6000 years old. By the way, SN 1987 A is only one of several examples of your god creating lies.
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Also, reptiles were created during the same day as the rest of land animals. In the book of Job, you see that dinosaurs and humans did live together.
As has been pointed out, dinosaurs were not reptiles. Some of them seem to have been endothermic and one lineage had feathers. But the Bible doesn't mention dinosaurs anywhere, not even in Job. Read some Bible discussion written by someone not as prone to fantasy. It is beyond belief that anyone could read that story and claim that it is historical. That's called blind faith.

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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2004, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nallyo
When you have God, you can trenscend many of the physical laws governing the universe now. What if he created things at different places and decided to give them a constant speed? He did not have to create everything at a central point, as is being inferred.

Also, reptiles were created during the same day as the rest of land animals. In the book of Job, you see that dinosaurs and humans did live together.
Um there is no center of the universe or central point. The known universe is uniformly dense and spread out and has been for a long time. So you are using the same model of the universe the scientist that date it use.
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Old 03-11-2004, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by gallo
That's simpleton theology. God created the laws of the universe and then broke them just because he can. Creationism explains nothing because it resorts to miracle to explain everything. Thus, it makes it fruitless to even attempt to explain nature in a rational way because at the base of it all is a god who changes the rules as he goes. Whatever we don't understand can be attributed to magic by an unseen being and we don't have to search for explanations any more.

Right. The old "god created light on the way to earth" argument. One problem with that is that we observe events that occur at great distances from earth. It isn't just light but the whole spectrum of energy. In 1987 a supernova was observed. This supernova is close enough to earth that its distance can be measured by several methods. It is 170,000 light years away. Several predictions have been made about this supernova that have been found to be true. For example, the presence of Co-56 and Co-57 by gamma ray emission and by the light caused in the gases around the supernova by this radiation. The decay curve of these was also predicted and has conformed exactly to what was predicted. Furthermore, it was predicted that the shock wave from the supernova would light up the ring (1.37 light years in diameter) of debris that had been ejected from the star earlier. Since the mid 1990s astronomers have been watching that happen. It is just now reaching the maximum. You can see it the picture linked at the bottom.

What I am saying is that your claim is that your god created history. Your god created evidence of events that never really happened. You are saying that rather than predicting the course of events that are following natural laws that are understood, scientists are predicting the nature of the lies that your god created. Your god lied to us and created a history of events that never happened.

And he didn't have to make it look as if everything is expanding from a central point. He didn't have to make it look like a star went supernova 170,000 years ago if the universe is only 6000 years old. By the way, SN 1987 A is only one of several examples of your god creating lies.

As has been pointed out, dinosaurs were not reptiles. Some of them seem to have been endothermic and one lineage had feathers. But the Bible doesn't mention dinosaurs anywhere, not even in Job. Read some Bible discussion written by someone not as prone to fantasy. It is beyond belief that anyone could read that story and claim that it is historical. That's called blind faith.

Like I said Genesis is a story that vaguely happend (those 7 days do have a uncanny order and method compared to other myths of the time), but not "God's Eyewitness account of creation" like it is touted.

BTW all your points are correct. Also my religion does not believe God makes up all these constants just to change them to variables at his whim. It is like the DMV changing the rules of the randomly during the day. Unlike you most people can't see that if God fabricated all (fossil record, light, geology) of this he would be lying wholesale we might as well be in the Matrix.
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Old 03-31-2004, 03:09 AM
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Lying? Why should he be lying? Look, he created the universem he doesn't answer to us about his intentions. You take him as he is, infinite and perfect, or you don't. It's as simple as that.





Fossil record.....right. I've yet to see some conclusive proof on anything proving , beyond a shadow of a doubt, that anything we've found is even 50,000 years old. The only thing I've seen is, "According to our interpetation of our carbon dating process, this shark tooth is 5 million years old!"




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One problem with that is that we observe events that occur at great distances from earthIt isnt just light but the whole spectrum of energy
Well, if he created all light, adn all energy, why can't he place it at his will? Just because we see these things happening before we should doesn't mean they didn't happen, it means we saw them sooner after they happend than we should've according to the laws of nature. Incidentally, the laws he created.
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Old 03-31-2004, 04:27 AM
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Lying? Why should he be lying? Look, he created the universem he doesn't answer to us about his intentions. You take him as he is, infinite and perfect, or you don't. It's as simple as that.

Even if h doesn't have to answer to us, it's still lying! He broke his own physical laws for what ever reason, giving us an erroneous perception of his
creation, this is deception, as simple as that....

Fossil record.....right. I've yet to see some conclusive proof on anything proving , beyond a shadow of a doubt, that anything we've found is even 50,000 years old. The only thing I've seen is, "According to our interpetation of our carbon dating process, this shark tooth is 5 million years old!"

You've yet to see any conclusive proof because you know nothing about paleontalogy, the fossil record, the theory of evolution, geology, radiometric dating.......People who don't know what they're talking about should keep quiet. Geologists 200 years ago, before evolution was even proposed realized that the earth was at least millions of years old and radiometric dating has only confirmed this. Radiocarbon dating isn't used for anything older than 50,000 years.

Well, if he created all light, adn all energy, why can't he place it at his will? Just because we see these things happening before we should doesn't mean they didn't happen, it means we saw them sooner after they happend than we should've according to the laws of nature. Incidentally, the laws he created.

But if he did place light and energy where ever he wanted, with out regard to the laws he supposedly created, once again he is being deceptive. By the way, what evidence do you have that anything was created by God?
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