Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst ... 789
Results 121 to 128 of 128
free-will: Originally Posted by pappillion001 I didn't ask you to justify or explain my question I asked you to provide an answer with regards to you specifically. How do you know that what the symbols mean? ...
  1. #121
    gansao's Avatar
    gansao is offline Honorary gay
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Limeyland
    Posts
    7,795
    Quote Originally Posted by pappillion001 View Post
    I didn't ask you to justify or explain my question I asked you to provide an answer with regards to you specifically. How do you know that what the symbols mean? I agree oweifhowiehfo might mean something to someone somewhere but even though I can write it it means nothing to me, but this is not true in our example. You knew what it meant in order for you to know you would have to comprehend to some degree the concept of what those letters represent.





    Nope doesn't sit and doesn't go on the net. Try again



    Nor does it mean they don't, but since you don't you can not make a judgement about if others can. How would you know if they don't? You don't know what the right answer is.



    Prove it. In order to do so you need to show that any claimed understanding is incorrect.







    One of the core beliefs of Judaism and Christianity is that God is omnipotent, able to do anything that is logically possible. But surprisingly, the Bible does not consistently support this idea. I've already written about the Tower of Babel, in which the Old Testament God appears to worry that humans will overmatch him if they complete the tower. And then, there's the following little-known Bible verse:
    "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."
    —Judges 1:19
    Although obscure among believers, this verse is famous among critics of scripture; it has even spawned a counter-apologetics wiki, fittingly titled Iron Chariots (and then there's this amusing modern retelling).
    Why God should have a problem overcoming iron chariots is not clear. In the context of the Bible it is utterly bizarre, almost as if it was inserted from a completely different religious tradition - it brings to mind the Celtic folklore about how cold iron was an effective repellent for faeries, ghosts, witches and other supernatural creatures.
    On the other hand, it may just be that this verse was written when Yahweh was regarded as a local deity, supernaturally powerful but not invincible. In this respect, the biblical authors might have conceived of him as similar to the ancient Greek gods, who according to the Iliad could be wounded by humans. Iron chariots, in the world of the the Ancient Near East, were the most technologically advanced weapon of war in existence. They seem to have played a decisive role in conflicts like the Battle of Qarqar in 850 BCE, when an alliance of smaller kingdoms (including King Ahab of Israel, whom the Bible's authors reviled) fended off an invasion by the regional superpower of Assyria.
    It's possible that the Bible's original authors imagined God as not powerful enough to overcome this technology, and that the dogma of his total omnipotence was a later innovation. (By Judges chapter 4, God seems to have acquired the ability to defeat chariots.) If so, this verse might be a fossil of that earlier belief, preserved in the text like a prehistoric insect in amber. As a part of modern Judeo-Christian theology it's like a puzzle piece that doesn't fit, but if we take a more rational view of the Bible as a collection of human-written and human-compiled documents, verses like this may provide valuable clues about its origin and evolution.
    Of course, the usual apologists have swooped in to try to explain away this verse within the framework of their own assumptions. The standard explanation for this verse is that the Israelites failed to drive out the Canaanites' iron chariots because they were not obedient to God's desires. However, the text itself does not support this guess: it mentions no such sin, and indeed, it says "the Lord was with Judah", which one would not expect if Judah had been sinful or disobedient. Instead, it specifically identifies the presence of the iron chariots as the reason why the driving out of the Canaanites failed.





    And by the 3rd he has proven himself to be dishonest, spiteful and the cause of evil in the world.

    I like that you have answered with a maybe well how about maybe not.








    No you repeated a 2,000 year old story written by unknown persons for unknown reasons that has no historical support for ever having actually happened and to which I offered reasonable explainations.




    If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his butt when he jumps.



    but yet you can't comprehend infinte. Maybe that is why you think he did, because you can't comprehend anything beyond a man 5000 years ago.




    If you can't you have no ability to say I can't



    Can you prove he is greater than the universe? Why must it be one or the other?



    I have refuted it as best as can be expected for an argument based on because you said so and you can't so nobody can



    Your arguing about whether an entity that is unproven to exist is omnipotent based on stories retold countless times before being written down by nobody knows who and whose credibility is unsupported. The Argonautica should be true also then.



    Christians across the world cringe. That is the main premise? Maybe give a once over sometime it may help.

    I can't lose your not even playing the same game. Your breaking your mental gears playing checkers to my chess.
    'Comprehending to some degree' is not comprehending..it is comprehending to some degree.
    This is your problem..you are trying to say that understanding roughly what a word implies is comprehending....which is incorrect.
    Understanding that googleplex is a huge number is not comprehending it .
    When you supply evidence that you can comprehend infinite, which by its own definition is incomprehencible then I will let you off. The rest is just you blowing off.

    You have no idea of the power of a being that is capable of creating the universe.So your arbitary limitations on his power cannot be taken seriously.

    If you state that you can comprehend infinite or inded a googolplex and cannot provide any evidence of it then I will take it that you cannot and you lose the argument.
    I can state I am the King of Spain but without proof I should not expect to be believed..it is not up to others to prove I am not the king of Spain.


    You are flapping in the wind.You cannot even prove your first assertion and laughingly are trying to get me to disprove it..the rest is just prattle.

    You got nothing and you know it.
    This is easy
    Last edited by gansao; 08-19-2011 at 04:51 AM.
    Richard Dawkins quote..
    .'I dont think its a very important question whether Jesus existed. Some historians.. MOST historians think he did.
    I dont really care, precisely because its petty. Maybe I've alluded to the possibilty that some historians think Jesus never existed. I take that back Jesus existed........

  2. #122
    gansao's Avatar
    gansao is offline Honorary gay
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Limeyland
    Posts
    7,795
    Quote Originally Posted by Databed View Post
    Does it say in the Bible somewhere that God cannot sin or something? Why the dwelling on semantics? If it's not simply semantics and you are trying to say that God is unable to sin because he chooses not to, don't you have a circular argument? This would be similar to, "I promise never to break a promise."

    I'm just trying to understand the point of this argument because it seems very inconsequential to me.
    Any argument( or even an equation) with a factor of infinite in it becomes a circular argument.
    If a being with infinite power does not do something it cannot be because it is incapable of doing it because the being has infinite power...simple.
    The next argument would be' Is god omnipotent and can we prove it?
    God , being capable of creating the universe, must be greater than the sum of it.
    If he is greater than the sum of it then his power must be incomprehensible.
    If his power is incomprehensible then we cannot comprehend his limitations and certainly cannot make arbitary limitations to his power.

    It is quite absurd to state that God CANNOT sin or that iron is some kind of 'god kryptonite' from what is written in the Bible.
    The Bible states that God has unimaginable power and this must be the sinle most important factor when trying to understand him.
    Therefore when the bible says that god CANNOT do something, it means he WILL not do it, not that he is incapable.
    Richard Dawkins quote..
    .'I dont think its a very important question whether Jesus existed. Some historians.. MOST historians think he did.
    I dont really care, precisely because its petty. Maybe I've alluded to the possibilty that some historians think Jesus never existed. I take that back Jesus existed........

  3. #123
    gansao's Avatar
    gansao is offline Honorary gay
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Limeyland
    Posts
    7,795
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.michael View Post
    No, but I don't believe or even think that God has lied.

    I see; the difference here is how one interprets what 'cannot' could mean and how it can be understood, on that notion I agree with you. But I guess our disagreement comes about when we try to talk about God and whether one can speak rationally about him. I already said this, but I really believe that one would be in better standing if one spoke logically of God and his nature. I'm not too familiar with Zen koan so I can't really say I understand how doing this will lead to Zen koan, but I will look it up.
    I think that we can speak rationally( to a point) about God.
    I do not think that we can quantify God or set limits to his capabilities.
    If one believes in God then I cannot criticise that person trying to make sense of God and their place in the world God created.
    However I do criticise one that would arbitarily put limits on a being of which that one has no real understanding.
    I think that trying to quantify God would just become a contemplation on how God is unquantifiable...no more worth actual study as to contemplate the sound of one hand clapping but maybe having some value as to realise that intuition is more effective in understanding God than rationality.
    Thus it becomes a koan
    Richard Dawkins quote..
    .'I dont think its a very important question whether Jesus existed. Some historians.. MOST historians think he did.
    I dont really care, precisely because its petty. Maybe I've alluded to the possibilty that some historians think Jesus never existed. I take that back Jesus existed........

  4. #124
    Theophilus's Avatar
    Theophilus is offline Servant of Jesus Christ
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    127

    A response to the question on free will.

    As a Christian with reformed beliefs, I probably see free will differently then many of you here. I will try to provide an adequate example in order to explain my view. Let us pretend that your favorite food is burgers. Your least favorite food is cow tongue. If I place a plate of burgers and a plate of cow tongues in front of you, which will you choose? The burgers. Obviously. Now I repeat this situation 1000 times. Which will you always choose? Burgers. This is your "Will." You love Burgers. Until something changes (i.e. God changes your heart) Burgers (representing sin) are your love. When God steps in and changes your heart, Cow tongue (representing Jesus) becomes your love.

    I hope that made some sense.

  5. #125
    Matthew is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    824
    Quote Originally Posted by Theophilus View Post
    As a Christian with reformed beliefs, I probably see free will differently then many of you here. I will try to provide an adequate example in order to explain my view. Let us pretend that your favorite food is burgers. Your least favorite food is cow tongue. If I place a plate of burgers and a plate of cow tongues in front of you, which will you choose? The burgers. Obviously. Now I repeat this situation 1000 times. Which will you always choose? Burgers. This is your "Will." You love Burgers. Until something changes (i.e. God changes your heart) Burgers (representing sin) are your love. When God steps in and changes your heart, Cow tongue (representing Jesus) becomes your love.

    I hope that made some sense.
    This is not an example of free will. What free will means is, given the choice between burgers/sin and cow tongue/Jesus, you could go either way, even if you like one better and always choose it.

    It's the capacity for going either way that makes the will free. In your example, it doesn't look like things are free either way. Before God steps in and changes your heart, you couldn't choose anything but sin. After the intervention, you couldn't choose anything but Jesus. Neither before nor after is it truly possible to choose anything other than what the heart desires, hence there is no free will.

    Such is your example, anyway. It doesn't illustrate the concept of free will, but of an entirely determined will, albeit with two different sets of determining circumstances.

  6. #126
    Bennedict's Avatar
    Bennedict is offline A Rare Sighting.
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Montreal Qc
    Posts
    1,275
    A better illustration would be would you choose burgers or a salad? You like both equally, but one is "sinful" and the other is "Jesusy". A burger is more tempting, but unhealthy; the salad is less tempting but much healthier.

    Even this is a bad illustration, because obviously salad is healther than a burger, but whether religion is more or less beneficial than not having it is a matter of opinion.

  7. #127
    Ripskar's Avatar
    Ripskar is offline Grognard
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Here be Dragons
    Posts
    1,423
    I'll order the Bhuna with pilau rice and peshwari naan, a poppadom, onion bhaji and a bottle of Cobra.
    Last edited by Ripskar; 10-21-2011 at 01:20 PM.
    Why pray when you can Google?

  8. #128
    gansao's Avatar
    gansao is offline Honorary gay
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Limeyland
    Posts
    7,795
    The best example of free will is eating a burger without onions when you really like onions
    Richard Dawkins quote..
    .'I dont think its a very important question whether Jesus existed. Some historians.. MOST historians think he did.
    I dont really care, precisely because its petty. Maybe I've alluded to the possibilty that some historians think Jesus never existed. I take that back Jesus existed........

Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst ... 789

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •