Originally Posted by Databed

Why would you agree with this? You are the one constantly spouting logic. This is such a logical fallacy and I've never even taken a logic course. Maybe one of you guys can pinpoint exactly which one it is.

Sin is not a logical impossibility because as you say he chooses not to, but if he chooses not to and will never under any circumstances choose to then the result is he can't.

The statement, under the above condtions, is true not because it is a logical impossibility, but simply because if God makes a rule for himself to never sin, and is capable of fixing his behavior in a way that sticks to this rule, then God will never sin, insomuch that we can state that it is impossible for God to sin. Hopes that makes more sense

Originally Posted by smiley

I'm not sure I can agree so easily with the limited logic that we humans can muster.

Of course, I also have a problem with the existence of this god person, but putting that aside . . . if this god is truly omnipotent, then he would be able to do all the things that we mere mortals could dream up

including
- producing a rock so large that he could not lift it (though simultaneously being able to lift it)
- being his own father/mother/pet gerbil whatever
- sinning and not sinning

. . . and so much more (without limit)

Omniptence is, by definition 'ALL POWERFUL'. We mere mortals can come up with as many impossible things as we like and have no concept of true omnipotence.

The only question that truly needs answering is, 'why would we need such a being?'

Can God create a round square with 3 straight uneven sides?

Omnipotence cannot be defined as "ALL POWERFUL", unless "all" and "powerful" are further dissected. We would be correct to state that a God that that can defy logic cannot exist

Originally Posted by unkerpaulie

Can God create a round square with 3 straight uneven sides?

Omnipotence cannot be defined as "ALL POWERFUL", unless "all" and "powerful" are further dissected. We would be correct to state that a God that that can defy logic cannot exist

I would state that an all powerful being could defy absolutely anything, hence all powerful. Just because our feeble minds cannot conceive of this does not detract from the logical argument.

And just to reiterate, I still do not believe that this being exists.

Originally Posted by gansao

Logic may not exist outside of the universe.
A deity that can create the universe may have created other universe where there is no logic...how can that work?

I dont know but if I were omnipotent then maybe I would.

What would that mean if logic didn't apply to God? If God could be illogical, then that means God couldn't be illogical. If contradictions are possible then that means contradictions are impossible, at the same time and in the same sense. If he is omnipotent then he is not omnipotent!
I think you end up making more problems for yourself instead of solving them as soon as you go down that path.

Originally Posted by smiley

I would state that an all powerful being could defy absolutely anything, hence all powerful. Just because our feeble minds cannot conceive of this does not detract from the logical argument.

And just to reiterate, I still do not believe that this being exists.

All-powerful can easily be understood as I stated in post #42. Your definition is stated in such a way that it clashes with what historical traditional theism has always been.
But according to your idea of an omnipotent God, I would have to take your side in denying that such a being exists as well.

Originally Posted by gansao

The bible may lie in places..it may be a complete lie but if the core of the bible is true, that God created the universe then you are arbitarily limiting the capability of something that you have no comprehension of.

If it is a complete lie then it would not have a core of truth.

Even in creation though there is an established order and process that all things are subject to. Even God.

Physical laws are known NOT to apply to him when he was here...miracles.
Creating arbitary limitations on Gods is quite ridiculous...

They did apply to God. God had a voice, God walked, God was heard, when God walked on the earth he did not float away. As I think on it I am having a hard time thinking of specific miracles attributed to God where there was no other possible rational explanation. Examples being walking on water and Israel being taken into slavery.

The physical laws you could suggest he manipulated but they did apply to him. His punishments always were about within the confines of the laws of the universe. He never simply made someone disappear or unmake them. Even in Heaven there are laws maybe different than on earth in this universe but they are there.

If God was not bound by physical laws of the universe then he would not have created everything as he did...why?
Maybe he created an infinite amount of universes that have completely different physical laws...you know only one.

How do you know I know only one? How do you know I am not in another one right now? Would I tell you if I was? How do you know this is not a book being written by a magic pineapple whose typewriter creates whatever is written?

Without physical laws there couldn't be anything. Even if the laws are different they are still necessary for that reality. Even for God to be able to create physical laws requires that there be some rules by which he is able to make new ones.

Originally Posted by unkerpaulie

I define omniscience differently. Omniscience is the knowledge of all things that are. Things that are not simply are not. If you know all things that are, and do not know things which are not, you have omniscience. A future decision, action or event is something that is not, and therefore knowledge of something that is not is not a requirement for one to have omniscience

Then if one is omniscience and knows the future there is no freewill since to know the future it must exist and if it exists already then we are not in control.

Originally Posted by smiley

I would state that an all powerful being could defy absolutely anything, hence all powerful. Just because our feeble minds cannot conceive of this does not detract from the logical argument.

And just to reiterate, I still do not believe that this being exists.

I personally disagree with the "feeble minds" reasoning. If God existed, omniscient/omnipotent or not, he would exist in a manner that man could comprehend. Otherwise his existence would be pointless to mankind, and all the other fringe benefits of his existence (creation, guidance, eternal life, etc) would be inconcievable to begin with. In other words, if God's omnipotence included the ability to do the illogical, then nobody would know he exists, including the proponents of religion as we know today. And therefore any reference to God's existence, his definition and description, would be totally conjecture based on absolutely nothing. Therefore even if God was omnipotent in a manner that made him illogical, nobody could possibly comprehend such a being, much less be in a position to claim that he even exists (since all humans are endowed equally with "feeble minds"). It would matter if such a God existed in reality, since he could very well exist and not exist in reality simultaneously anyway.

I just busted a mental nut lol

If God exists and is not all powerful, he has to wondering if there is a God.

Originally Posted by pappillion001

Then if one is omniscience and knows the future there is no freewill since to know the future it must exist and if it exists already then we are not in control.

Yeah but like I said to me omniscience doesn't include knowing the future, or know things that don't exist. If omniscience doesn't mean knowing the future, then God can have omniscience and we can still have free will. The "downside" is that God can be surprised, disappointed and regretful by decisions and events that take place that didn't work out exactly as he hoped they would. And of course this view of God rubs most christians the wrong way. But you can't have both, either you have free will, or you have a God that can see and predict the future...

Originally Posted by Databed

If God exists and is not all powerful, he has to wondering if there is a God.

Not being able to do the illogical doesn't make God less than all powerful. Some things are impossible because they defy logic, not because they require addition power. God cannot make a rock so big that he cannot lift it, not because a more powerful being would be able to. A being with infinite power would be able to make a rock of infinite mass and still be able to lift it. Arguing that God is powerful enough to make a rock too heavy for him to lift will expose the flaw in the definition definition of omnipotence, regardless of how you answer it. God doesn't have to lose his omnipotence, its just that humans need to redefine it

Originally Posted by pappillion001

If it is a complete lie then it would not have a core of truth.

Even in creation though there is an established order and process that all things are subject to. Even God.



They did apply to God. God had a voice, God walked, God was heard, when God walked on the earth he did not float away. As I think on it I am having a hard time thinking of specific miracles attributed to God where there was no other possible rational explanation. Examples being walking on water and Israel being taken into slavery.

The physical laws you could suggest he manipulated but they did apply to him. His punishments always were about within the confines of the laws of the universe. He never simply made someone disappear or unmake them. Even in Heaven there are laws maybe different than on earth in this universe but they are there.




How do you know I know only one? How do you know I am not in another one right now? Would I tell you if I was? How do you know this is not a book being written by a magic pineapple whose typewriter creates whatever is written?

Without physical laws there couldn't be anything. Even if the laws are different they are still necessary for that reality. Even for God to be able to create physical laws requires that there be some rules by which he is able to make new ones.

God had to communicate to beings that lived in a rational world with specific laws . To limit a being that created the universe by what WE are capable of understanding is a kind of delusion.
If Gods miracles were illogical or beyond our understanding we would not understand that a miracle was taking place.
I doubt that your a a magic pineapple or whatever because I can reasonably judge your capabilities by comparing them with mine.
However I am not even remotely judging the capability of a being that created the universe and neither are you.
An amoeba judging the capability of human abstract thought would not even compare in its limtations than you and your understanding of god.
You dreaming up ridiculous situations that YOU may be are in does nothing to argue the limit of a omnipotent being.
There may be a viable universe without any physical laws....you just cannot imagine it, but an omnipotent being have created it.
Because it is omipotent...

Originally Posted by mr.michael

What would that mean if logic didn't apply to God? If God could be illogical, then that means God couldn't be illogical. If contradictions are possible then that means contradictions are impossible, at the same time and in the same sense. If he is omnipotent then he is not omnipotent!
I think you end up making more problems for yourself instead of solving them as soon as you go down that path.

All-powerful can easily be understood as I stated in post #42. Your definition is stated in such a way that it clashes with what historical traditional theism has always been.
But according to your idea of an omnipotent God, I would have to take your side in denying that such a being exists as well.

The problem is with language here.
We can ask if God could change himself to fish and swim in space?
The question does not beg the question of whether God is omnipotent of not.
It begs the question of whether human language can create a sentence that does not mean anything.
Omnipotent and infinite do not actually mean anything anyway.
What you are asking is ...can god do something that he cant do?... and expect that to be a question that deserves an answer.
The problem is in the question..dont judge a being that created the universe by a stupid question
If God is ' omnipotent' or has ' infinite' power what does that mean?

Originally Posted by gansao

God had to communicate to beings that lived in a rational world with specific laws . To limit a being that created the universe by what WE are capable of understanding is a kind of delusion.
If Gods miracles were illogical or beyond our understanding we would not understand that a miracle was taking place.

Failing to understand how something happens is not the same as not realizing it happened. Many of the miraculous supernatural events of biblical times have been explained and fall within the boundaries of now known laws. Somethings we still don't fully comprehend but that tends to be more a limitation of technology and time.

We must also look at what is termed a miracle or defies logic and known laws. We have these stories passed down from a time when what can be easily explained by a 10 year old today was something that could only be explained by the existence of God back then.

I doubt that your a a magic pineapple or whatever because I can reasonably judge your capabilities by comparing them with mine.
However I am not even remotely judging the capability of a being that created the universe and neither are you.

Why not it is within our abilities to be able to do so, maybe not presently but over a number of generations with each building upon the previous. Being made in the image of God and having eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil the intention seems to lead in one direction. We may take a long time getting there or we may never get there but that is up to us.

An amoeba judging the capability of human abstract thought would not even compare in its limitations than you and your understanding of god.
You dreaming up ridiculous situations that YOU may be are in does nothing to argue the limit of a omnipotent being.

There is nothing without some laws existing, even if those laws change at random that is still rules. If there are none there cannot be anything. There is no cause there is no effect there is no motion there is no mass, no gravity, no heat, fusion, energy, cold, light, dark, life or death. Even total random events have laws.

There may be a viable universe without any physical laws....you just cannot imagine it, but an omnipotent being have created it.
Because it is omipotent...

This is why I made the comment of the magic pineapple. First thing to point out is you just imagined it and you are not the first to do so. That part is not difficult as anybody can imagine anything. What you can't do is describe it.

Originally Posted by pappillion001

Failing to understand how something happens is not the same as not realizing it happened. Many of the miraculous supernatural events of biblical times have been explained and fall within the boundaries of now known laws. Somethings we still don't fully comprehend but that tends to be more a limitation of technology and time.

We must also look at what is termed a miracle or defies logic and known laws. We have these stories passed down from a time when what can be easily explained by a 10 year old today was something that could only be explained by the existence of God back then.




Why not it is within our abilities to be able to do so, maybe not presently but over a number of generations with each building upon the previous. Being made in the image of God and having eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil the intention seems to lead in one direction. We may take a long time getting there or we may never get there but that is up to us.



There is nothing without some laws existing, even if those laws change at random that is still rules. If there are none there cannot be anything. There is no cause there is no effect there is no motion there is no mass, no gravity, no heat, fusion, energy, cold, light, dark, life or death. Even total random events have laws.



This is why I made the comment of the magic pineapple. First thing to point out is you just imagined it and you are not the first to do so. That part is not difficult as anybody can imagine anything. What you can't do is describe it.

None of the miracles can be said to have explained or fall into known laws.
The miracles have defied physical laws.
A ten year old can say that a television is not a miracle because it is a television...so what?
There is no reason to think that man will be able to quantify or explain the limitations of a being that created the universe.
Why do you think anything within the universe will be able to understand anything outside of it?
This was never promised or prophesised and there is no reason to think that we ever will be able to understand .
Humans cannot comprehend infinite...and they never will.

You only know the world of the world you live in. tThere may be no physical laws in other worlds..none that you would recognise or even none at all.
Dont state that there cannot be physical laws without physical laws..we all know that but there may be worlds that can exist without physical laws.
Heaven?
You cant imagine infinite.You cant describe an omnipotent entity.
You cannot rationalise the unrational.
I cant actually imagine a magic pineapple and nor can you.
I like you can just imagine a pineapple. I like you cant imagine magic.
The problem is that language can be meaningless...I am not here