Originally Posted by Easyrider
Good morning, Rosie (O'Donnell). Is today the day you drop down into the Pit for being a spiritual cancer in society?

Were you ever able to name all those deist signers of the Declaration of Independence? I'll settle for just five. Remember when selecting your five that a deist was one who believed in a God who did not involve himself in the affairs of men and / or nations, and who did not give divine revelation to man (ala the Bible).

Let's see your list. Otherwise the world will know you lied AGAIN!

Originally Posted by Rafi

Why Dittoboy?

It's obvious, ROSIE, that you can't back up your mouth. You're pathetic.

Originally Posted by Easyrider

It's obvious, ROSIE, that you can't back up your mouth. You're pathetic.

Oh, so cranky, Dittoboy! Maybe you need some zanax too. Or pray some more to your pagan deities.

Little hint: Listening to too much Rush Limbaugh will give you ulcers - all that sustained outrage and all. Plus the morally superior preening... not healthy.

Originally Posted by Rafi

Oh, so cranky, Dittoboy! Maybe you need some zanax too. Or pray some more to your pagan deities.

Little hint: Listening to too much Rush Limbaugh will give you ulcers - all that sustained outrage and all. Plus the morally superior preening... not healthy.

Got a flash for you, meathead, I seldom listen to Rush unless he's quoted on some news or opinion show. So once again you're full of horse manure.

One other thing - enjoy life while you can because you could very well be in Hell by morning. Or even next week, month, or year. You will be spending eternity with your father, the devil. That is unless you repent and receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior for the remission of your many sins.

Originally Posted by Easyrider

You will be spending eternity with your father, the devil.

More fairy tales. Your medieval boogie man may be fascinating historically as an inquisitional scare tactic, but he
doesn't concern me any more than Voldemort, Darth Vader, or Rob Zombie.

I'm just curious as to how someone who believes in devils, hells, resurrections and all sorts of other unprovable rubbish has the gall to arrogantly dismiss the fossil record, literally 'etched in stone,' based on pulp pseudo-science and half-literate bible tract sermonizing.

Originally Posted by Rafi

More fairy tales.

Prove it. You're all mouth and no evidence.

Originally Posted by Rafi

I'm just curious as to how someone who believes in devils, hells, resurrections and all sorts of other unprovable rubbish has the gall to arrogantly dismiss the fossil record, literally 'etched in stone,' based on pulp pseudo-science and half-literate bible tract sermonizing.

Who dismissed the fossil record? Got a post to back up your latest lie??

Originally Posted by Easyrider

Prove it. You're all mouth and no evidence.

The burden of proof is on you, Sermon Boy. What are the coordinates of your so-called "Hell"? Where exactly is it located? What are it's boundaries? Can you show us a picture of it? Do you have a witness who has returned from there to tell us about it?

No metaphors, poetic license, "scriptural evidence," or other such nonsense in your essay, please.

Originally Posted by Easyrider

Good morning, Rosie (O'Donnell). Is today the day you drop down into the Pit for being a spiritual cancer in society?

Are you not actually able to offer rational arguments for your views without really stupid attempts at insult?

Were you ever able to name all those deist signers of the Declaration of Independence? I'll settle for just five.

Let me. But first:

Remember when selecting your five that a deist was one who believed in a God who did not involve himself in the affairs of men and / or nations, and who did not give divine revelation to man (ala the Bible).

So you get to define what a deist was in 1776?

Here you go:

John Adams - a Unitarian who denied the divinity of Christ. Technically not a deist but closer to deism than to christianity.
George Clinton - a deist
Benjamin Franklin - a deist and Free Mason
John Hancock - a deist and Free Mason
Stephen Hopkins - a deist
Thomas Jefferson - a deist and possibly a Free Mason
Lewis Morris - a deist
Robert Treat Paine - a deist
Benjamin Rush - a deist
George Wythe - a professed deist when he signed

Besides that:

Robert Morris was a Free Mason, as were most deists. Also
George Read - Free Mason

Of course, there it the fact that many of our Presidents were not Christian:

George Washington - deist and Free Mason
John Adams - Unitarian
Thomas Jefferson - deist
James Madison - deist
James Monroe - deist
John Q. Adams - Unitarian
Andrew Jackson - unknown until after his presidency when he became a christian
Abraham Lincoln - atheist
Ronald Reagan - spiritualist

Others of our "Founding Fathers" who were deists:

Ethan Allen - Free Mason
Joel Barlow
William Dawes (alarm rider) - Free Mason
Rufus King - Free Mason
James Madison - Free mason (Dolly was also a deist)
George Mason
James Monroe
Gouverneur Morris
James Otis
Thomas Paine
Elihu Palmer
Charles Pinckney
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney
Edmund Randolph
Paul Revere (alarm rider)
Benjamin Rush
Joseph Warren - Free Mason

Let's see your list. Otherwise the world will know you lied AGAIN!

Nope. He didn't. The thing is that you are ignorant of the causes, politics, and philosophy of the Revolution. You seem to have bought into the "christian nation" stupidity that asserts that our founding fathers were christians. Some were. The major voices were not. They were educated at Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, William and Mary, Princeton, etc. At that time they were fed an intellectual diet of Enlightenment literature. It was a bit passe at the time, but it inspired the Revolution, the Declaration, and the Constitution. Educated men, christian or not, accepted the principles of the Enlightenment. As a result, the US is not a "christian nation," but rather an "enlightenment" nation.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

That's not christian since christianity has never had a problem with imposing christian faith by law and torture.

Originally Posted by pandion

Are you not actually able to offer rational arguments for your views without really stupid attempts at insult?

Let me. But first:

So you get to define what a deist was in 1776?

Here you go:

John Adams - a Unitarian who denied the divinity of Christ. Technically not a deist but closer to deism than to christianity.
George Clinton - a deist
Benjamin Franklin - a deist and Free Mason
John Hancock - a deist and Free Mason
Stephen Hopkins - a deist
Thomas Jefferson - a deist and possibly a Free Mason
Lewis Morris - a deist
Robert Treat Paine - a deist
Benjamin Rush - a deist
George Wythe - a professed deist when he signed

Besides that:

Robert Morris was a Free Mason, as were most deists. Also
George Read - Free Mason

Of course, there it the fact that many of our Presidents were not Christian:

George Washington - deist and Free Mason
John Adams - Unitarian
Thomas Jefferson - deist
James Madison - deist
James Monroe - deist
John Q. Adams - Unitarian
Andrew Jackson - unknown until after his presidency when he became a christian
Abraham Lincoln - atheist
Ronald Reagan - spiritualist

Others of our "Founding Fathers" who were deists:

Ethan Allen - Free Mason
Joel Barlow
William Dawes (alarm rider) - Free Mason
Rufus King - Free Mason
James Madison - Free mason (Dolly was also a deist)
George Mason
James Monroe
Gouverneur Morris
James Otis
Thomas Paine
Elihu Palmer
Charles Pinckney
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney
Edmund Randolph
Paul Revere (alarm rider)
Benjamin Rush
Joseph Warren - Free Mason

Nope. He didn't. The thing is that you are ignorant of the causes, politics, and philosophy of the Revolution. You seem to have bought into the "christian nation" stupidity that asserts that our founding fathers were christians. Some were. The major voices were not. They were educated at Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, William and Mary, Princeton, etc. At that time they were fed an intellectual diet of Enlightenment literature. It was a bit passe at the time, but it inspired the Revolution, the Declaration, and the Constitution. Educated men, christian or not, accepted the principles of the Enlightenment. As a result, the US is not a "christian nation," but rather an "enlightenment" nation.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

That's not christian since christianity has never had a problem with imposing christian faith by law and torture.

You play fast and loose with what a deist is. A deist in 1776 was one who believed in a God who did not involve himself in the affairs of men and / or nations, and who did not give divine revelation to man (ala the Bible).

Most of the people you mentioned don't fit that description, as they have quotations on record that show they believe in a God who either involves himself in the affairs of men and / or nations, and/or who gives divine revelation to man (ala the Bible).

"Deism was an early attempt to reconcile the mechanistic world-view arising from experimental science with religion. Deists believed in a remote sort of clockmaker-God who created the universe but then refrained from meddling in it afterwards. Deists explicitly rejected faith, revelation, religious doctrine, religious authority, and all existing religions. They held that humans could know the mind of God only through the study of nature; in many versions of Deist thinking, the mind of God was explicitly identified with the laws of nature."

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=312

I have examples from Benjamin Franklin, Jefferson, and others that demonstrate just what I'm talking about. For instance, Jefferson did believe God involved himself in the affairs of men and nations.

In addition, Dr. M. E. Bradford of the University of Dallas conducted a study on the religious beliefs of the Founding Founders. He discovered the Founders were members of denominations as follows: twenty-eight Episcopalians, eight Presbyterians, seven Congregationalists, two Lutherans, two Dutch Reformed, two Methodists, two Roman Catholics, and three deists.

So you're out of touch with reality and yes, Rafi the Mouth lied again.

Originally Posted by pandion

"... christianity has never had a problem with imposing christian faith by law and torture.

"Torture?" Don't confuse people who violate Christian principles with Biblical Christianity. After all, what part of "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" do you remotely believe supports advancing Christianity by torture?

Originally Posted by Easyrider

"Torture?" Don't confuse people who violate Christian principles with Biblical Christianity. After all, what part of "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" do you remotely believe supports advancing Christianity by torture?

And yet the history of christianity is full of torture of dissenters. The inquisition in several countries. Calvin in Geneva. The monarchs of England. The Puritans in New England.

But christians have always been very selective as to which particular Bible verses they prefer to inforce at any given moment. Love thy neighbor seems to have always been at the bottom of the list.

Originally Posted by Easyrider

You play fast and loose with what a deist is. A deist in 1776 was one who believed in a God who did not involve himself in the affairs of men and / or nations, and who did not give divine revelation to man (ala the Bible).

Most of the people you mentioned don't fit that description, as they have quotations on record that show they believe in a God who either involves himself in the affairs of men and / or nations, and/or who gives divine revelation to man (ala the Bible).

"Deism was an early attempt to reconcile the mechanistic world-view arising from experimental science with religion. Deists believed in a remote sort of clockmaker-God who created the universe but then refrained from meddling in it afterwards. Deists explicitly rejected faith, revelation, religious doctrine, religious authority, and all existing religions. They held that humans could know the mind of God only through the study of nature; in many versions of Deist thinking, the mind of God was explicitly identified with the laws of nature."

Deism and the Founding Fathers

I have examples from Benjamin Franklin, Jefferson, and others that demonstrate just what I'm talking about. For instance, Jefferson did believe God involved himself in the affairs of men and nations.

In addition, Dr. M. E. Bradford of the University of Dallas conducted a study on the religious beliefs of the Founding Founders. He discovered the Founders were members of denominations as follows: twenty-eight Episcopalians, eight Presbyterians, seven Congregationalists, two Lutherans, two Dutch Reformed, two Methodists, two Roman Catholics, and three deists.

So you're out of touch with reality and yes, Rafi the Mouth lied again.

You're delusional. Again, you define what these men belived. Again, an idiot christian tries to claim that Jefferson, Franklin, Washington, Hamilton, Madison were somehow christians. Moronic in the extreme.

Originally Posted by pandion

You're delusional. Again, you define what these men belived. Again, an idiot christian tries to claim that Jefferson, Franklin, Washington, Hamilton, Madison were somehow christians. Moronic in the extreme.

I don't know about Franklin, but have you read the letters from Washington and Jefferson? "with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence" In the declaration of independence. Now what reliance could one have on non-interference?

Originally Posted by Easyrider
"Torture?" Don't confuse people who violate Christian principles with Biblical Christianity. After all, what part of "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" do you remotely believe supports advancing Christianity by torture?

Originally Posted by pandion

And yet the history of christianity is full of torture of dissenters. The inquisition in several countries. Calvin in Geneva. The monarchs of England. The Puritans in New England.

Like I said, Don't confuse people who violate Christian principles with Biblical Christianity. After all, what part of "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" do you remotely believe supports advancing Christianity by torture?

Originally Posted by Easyrider
You play fast and loose with what a deist is. A deist in 1776 was one who believed in a God who did not involve himself in the affairs of men and / or nations, and who did not give divine revelation to man (ala the Bible).

Most of the people you mentioned don't fit that description, as they have quotations on record that show they believe in a God who either involves himself in the affairs of men and / or nations, and/or who gives divine revelation to man (ala the Bible).

"Deism was an early attempt to reconcile the mechanistic world-view arising from experimental science with religion. Deists believed in a remote sort of clockmaker-God who created the universe but then refrained from meddling in it afterwards. Deists explicitly rejected faith, revelation, religious doctrine, religious authority, and all existing religions. They held that humans could know the mind of God only through the study of nature; in many versions of Deist thinking, the mind of God was explicitly identified with the laws of nature."

Deism and the Founding Fathers

I have examples from Benjamin Franklin, Jefferson, and others that demonstrate just what I'm talking about. For instance, Jefferson did believe God involved himself in the affairs of men and nations.

In addition, Dr. M. E. Bradford of the University of Dallas conducted a study on the religious beliefs of the Founding Founders. He discovered the Founders were members of denominations as follows: twenty-eight Episcopalians, eight Presbyterians, seven Congregationalists, two Lutherans, two Dutch Reformed, two Methodists, two Roman Catholics, and three deists.

So you're out of touch with reality and yes, Rafi the Mouth lied again.

Originally Posted by pandion

You're delusional. Again, you define what these men belived.

I can go on record and tell you what they SAID / WROTE. So you're the one flapping his gums.

Originally Posted by pandion

Again, an idiot christian tries to claim that Jefferson, Franklin, Washington, Hamilton, Madison were somehow christians. Moronic in the extreme.

<Flush>

At least they weren't spiritually-constipated atheists on their way to Hell.