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Thread: Is Health a matter of civil rights?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPSartre12 View Post
    In a free society, one member of that society has no legitimate claims over the fruits of another's labor.
    Now, you can pontificate about equality all you like, but the bottom line is the forced taking of another man's property is theft.
    I believe that, in a civilized society, we should do what we can to help the less fortunate. That's called "being charitable" and it's a voluntary endeavor. When the government gets involved and forces the haves to pay for the have-nots, that's called socialism.
    But Jp it this issue has not just spread to those whom you claim to be "thieving" off of our population or hence those of poverty, it extends toward the middle class and upper middle class as well!

    We are not speaking of taking one's property here and if you speak of taxes or cost, look toward the wasteful spending of the past eight years and call it thus justified...

    This is an endeavor not of a voluntary nature but an effort to fix a crumbling system that is bankrupting and jeopardizing the health and well being of a majority of Americans.

    If you cannot see past that and actually look at true accounts from families, fathers, mothers, people who have not seen a doctor in ten years due to it's cost, then you need to.

    Equating this with socialism is not only a fallacy in it's own right, but turning a blind eye and spin upon one of the three fundamental rights our own founding fathers said we have a right to endowed by our creator...

  2. #32
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    Ha, savings from cutting the F-22 program is like what $2 billion max? Only $848 billion to go!

    Anyway, health care is not a civil right

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steeeeve View Post
    Anyway, health care is not a civil right
    SO an inalienable right put forth by our founding fathers is thus not true? Is the concept of life within only the context of birth? Maintaining health is a matter of civil rights of the most dire and personal to us all.

    Until you explain to me why I have no reason to even consider you point valid.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazyjason View Post
    SO an inalienable right put forth by our founding fathers is thus not true? Is the concept of life within only the context of birth? Maintaining health is a matter of civil rights of the most dire and personal to us all.

    Until you explain to me why I have no reason to even consider you point valid.
    An inalienable right is not healthcare no matter how hard you twist and spin. I'd point out that an inalienable one costs no one any thing to ensure I have it. As in the right of self defense or the right of free speech. The right against self incrimination or illegale search and seizure. If any thing your healthcare violtes illegal seizure as the government has to seize my treasure in order to pay for your puffery. As an old first sergeant once said, "ya live, ya die, ya smoke, ya buy." In this case smoking is healthcare.
    The left lost the ability, use logic or know what truth is with the embrace of moral relativism. Thus you get moral equivalence between acts like detaining terrorists and cutting off heads of innocents.
    If lawmakers and anti-gun groups were serious about reducing or ending gun crimes, they would turn their wrath toward the criminals. As it is, their efforts are not the solution to gun crimes they are part of the problem.
    Even if you gave liberals the answers on an ethics exam, they’d fail.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazyjason View Post
    SO an inalienable right put forth by our founding fathers is thus not true?
    No, they are true.

    Until you explain to me why I have no reason to even consider you point valid.
    You want me to come up with reasons why you have no reasons to consider my point valid? That's a bit of a challenge since I don't know how you think. Ummm, perhaps you aren't a critical thinker? Perhaps you aren't reading me correctly? The reasons are endless but it seems to me this is a personal problem.

  6. #36
    JPSartre12 Guest
    [QUOTE=jazyjason;382604]But Jp it this issue has not just spread to those whom you claim to be "thieving" off of our population or hence those of poverty, it extends toward the middle class and upper middle class as well!
    [
    /quote]

    I don't see the middle class clamoring for socialized medicine. Sorry.
    We are not speaking of taking one's property here and if you speak of taxes or cost, look toward the wasteful spending of the past eight years and call it thus justified...
    There's a difference between fighting a war to prevent the spread of Islamic fundamentalist radicals and giving more bennies to the undeserving.
    This is an endeavor not of a voluntary nature but an effort to fix a crumbling system that is bankrupting and jeopardizing the health and well being of a majority of Americans.
    [q
    The healthcare system is broken because Uncle Sam only gives hospitals and doctors a fraction of what their services cost. Giving more power to the government WRT healthcare is like pouring gasoline on a fire.
    If you cannot see past that and actually look at true accounts from families, fathers, mothers, people who have not seen a doctor in ten years due to it's cost, then you need to.

    Equating this with socialism is not only a fallacy in it's own right, but turning a blind eye and spin upon one of the three fundamental rights our own founding fathers said we have a right to endowed by our creator...
    Your idea of what our Founding Fathers envisioned is laughable. They fought a war over a 1% tax on tea and you think they envisioned a government that takes 55% of one's income? Hardly.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSarge View Post
    An inalienable right is not healthcare no matter how hard you twist and spin. I'd point out that an inalienable one costs no one any thing to ensure I have it. As in the right of self defense or the right of free speech. The right against self incrimination or illegale search and seizure. If any thing your healthcare violtes illegal seizure as the government has to seize my treasure in order to pay for your puffery. As an old first sergeant once said, "ya live, ya die, ya smoke, ya buy." In this case smoking is healthcare.
    And yet it is the concept of life and it's maintaining in which I am connecting to health care itself. Is it then not a right or a matter of civility to look out for our fellow man?

    Is not the well being of a nation determined by the health of it's citizens?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steeeeve View Post

    You want me to come up with reasons why you have no reasons to consider my point valid? That's a bit of a challenge since I don't know how you think. Ummm, perhaps you aren't a critical thinker? Perhaps you aren't reading me correctly? The reasons are endless but it seems to me this is a personal problem.
    How is this a personal problem? I'm a veteran I have sufficient health coverage myself. It is when I witness firsthand the utter disdain people are in due to our crumbling system that gives me reason to speak out.

    I mean by which how do you validate your point. Evidence, supporting ideals etc.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPSartre12 View Post



    I don't see the middle class clamoring for socialized medicine. Sorry.
    WHom do you see? Just the lower class? Jp either your blind, or fail to really see what a horrible problem this is to many hard working Americans... And this is now a matter of no longer so called "socialized medicine". Seems the Democrats are weasels and will wiggle into any sort of deal just to pass a watered down bill of true reform...

    At least there are many positive things that constitute this bill. That is if the damn Dems would stop changing it every 5 minutes to appease some dirty handed Senator...

    Quote Originally Posted by JPSartre12 View Post
    There's a difference between fighting a war to prevent the spread of Islamic fundamentalist radicals and giving more bennies to the undeserving.
    [q
    The healthcare system is broken because Uncle Sam only gives hospitals and doctors a fraction of what their services cost. Giving more power to the government WRT healthcare is like pouring gasoline on a fire.
    Undeserving? And how shall we judge which families are? Will you judge them JP? Do not be so quick to deal out death and judgment to those whom you do not know and in sheer ignorance claim to do so... Because that is what you are actually condemning some of these people to. Death...

    Wrong. Healthcare is broken because we choose to ignore the tell tale signs the rising costs, the out of control discrimination upon pre existing conditions, the lack of choice in plans... It all adds up JP.

    And how is it uncle sam's fault when the very health insurance companies regulate what cost's what and whom they can choose to insure and for how much? Even now the two biggest insurance companies in Connecticut have merged once again giving consumers even less choice in the matter...



    Quote Originally Posted by JPSartre12 View Post
    Your idea of what our Founding Fathers envisioned is laughable. They fought a war over a 1% tax on tea and you think they envisioned a government that takes 55% of one's income? Hardly.

  10. #40
    JPSartre12 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by jazyjason View Post
    And yet it is the concept of life and it's maintaining in which I am connecting to health care itself. Is it then not a right or a matter of civility to look out for our fellow man?
    Is not the well being of a nation determined by the health of it's citizens?
    Yes, and the mechanism for doing that is called charity.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPSartre12 View Post
    Yes, and the mechanism for doing that is called charity.
    WRONG Not when charity is unable to rectify the sheer horrible health care system that grips millions of Americans and now jeopardizes their families, their well being, and their very lives...

  12. #42
    JPSartre12 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by jazyjason View Post
    WHom do you see? Just the lower class? Jp either your blind, or fail to really see what a horrible problem this is to many hard working Americans... And this is now a matter of no longer so called "socialized medicine". Seems the Democrats are weasels and will wiggle into any sort of deal just to pass a watered down bill of true reform...
    I don't see anyone without healthcare. None of my friends, none of my family, none of my neighbors. ZILCH. NADA. NAUGHT. CIPHER.
    Now I don't go wandering around the inner cities looking for half-crazy winos and crack addicts either, so maybe that's why.
    At least there are many positive things that constitute this bill. That is if the damn Dems would stop changing it every 5 minutes to appease some dirty handed Senator...
    That "dirty handed Senator" is probably the smartest "Democrat" in the bunch. He knows that the public doesn't support single-payer or increasing Medicare coverage and is listening. The Liberals in Congress are like lemmings following their leadership off a political career-ending cliff. If you don't believe me, check the race in Reid's home state. He'd lose an election against just about anyone the Republicans put up against him.
    U.S. SENATE SEAT: Two could beat Reid, poll finds - News - ReviewJournal.com
    Undeserving? And how shall we judge which families are? Will you judge them JP? Do not be so quick to deal out death and judgment to those whom you do not know and in sheer ignorance claim to do so... Because that is what you are actually condemning some of these people to. Death...
    Another fallacy. Didn't the dismantling of the Cake Lady's Harvard expert study teach you anything?
    Wrong. Healthcare is broken because we choose to ignore the tell tale signs the rising costs, the out of control discrimination upon pre existing conditions, the lack of choice in plans... It all adds up JP.
    Healthcare costs are rising because Uncle Sam is stiffing hospitals and doctors on Medicare patient costs so they're being passed on to US!

    GAO Report Confirms: Medicare Underpays for Anesthesia Services;
    Nurse Anesthetists Assure Seniors Access to Safe Anesthesia Care

    Park Ridge, Ill. – A new report issued by the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) confirms that Medicare anesthesia payments are 67 percent lower than anesthesia payments from private insurance coverage, and that America’s Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists (CRNAs) are essential to ensuring that America’s seniors have access to safe anesthesia care for surgery, pain management, and other needed healthcare services.

    Medicare pays about 87 percent of market rates for most services, but about 34 percent for anesthesia services—a level even lower than another government report found just five years ago,” said Wanda Wilson, CRNA, PhD, president of the 36,000-member American Association of Nurse Anesthetists (AANA). “While the cost effective and high quality services of CRNAs have made it possible to meet the needs of seniors, such low reimbursements are not sustainable, nor are they good for the overall health of the Medicare program. The AANA is asking the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services and Congress to work together to reverse anesthesia payment cuts for all anesthesia providers and restore fair anesthesia payment. And we urge the public to join with us.”

    AANA - 083107 -- GAO Report Confirms: Medicare Underpays for Anesthesia Services
    An important study by the actuarial firm, Milliman finds that Medicare underpays hospitals by $34.8 billion and physicians by $14.1 billion, while Medicaid underpays hospitals by $16.2 billion and physicians by $23.7 billion. These amounts are made up for by commercial payers, resulting in 18% greater costs for private carriers for hospital services and 12% for physician services.
    http://www.john-goodman-blog.com/cos...the-uninsured/
    The fact is that the insured have been subsidizing Medicare, Medicaid and the uninsured. That's why the costs are so high!
    And how is it uncle sam's fault when the very health insurance companies regulate what cost's what and whom they can choose to insure and for how much? Even now the two biggest insurance companies in Connecticut have merged once again giving consumers even less choice in the matter...
    See above.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazyjason View Post
    And yet it is the concept of life and it's maintaining in which I am connecting to health care itself. Is it then not a right or a matter of civility to look out for our fellow man?

    Is not the well being of a nation determined by the health of it's citizens?
    You are not connecting much of any thing. You have been shown it is neither an unalienable nor a civil right. If what you term a "right" incurs a burden on someone else it is not a right. You will die if you don't obtain food. You don't have a right to food. You are dependent on your self to obtain food. It is also the same with healthcare.

    A right and civility are two different things. You are trying to confuse the two.

    I am not sure what you are trying for in that last sentence. At any given time a number of citizens of every country are sick or dying. This doesn't mean any thing as far as the wel being of a nation.
    The left lost the ability, use logic or know what truth is with the embrace of moral relativism. Thus you get moral equivalence between acts like detaining terrorists and cutting off heads of innocents.
    If lawmakers and anti-gun groups were serious about reducing or ending gun crimes, they would turn their wrath toward the criminals. As it is, their efforts are not the solution to gun crimes they are part of the problem.
    Even if you gave liberals the answers on an ethics exam, they’d fail.

  14. #44
    JPSartre12 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by jazyjason View Post
    WRONG Not when charity is unable to rectify the sheer horrible health care system that grips millions of Americans and now jeopardizes their families, their well being, and their very lives...
    Careful JJ, you're starting to sound like other drama queens that post to this forum. You used to be much more objective.....and credible.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazyjason View Post
    How is this a personal problem? I'm a veteran I have sufficient health coverage myself. It is when I witness firsthand the utter disdain people are in due to our crumbling system that gives me reason to speak out.

    I mean by which how do you validate your point. Evidence, supporting ideals etc.
    You never asked me to validate my point only to figure out why you couldn't figure out why it is valid. Odd I know, but that is what you said. Since I don't know how you think it seems impossible but I tried for your sake.

    So what exactly are you trying to ask me? Why it isn't a civil right? If this is the question than look at what a "civil right" is.

    Civil Right: right or rights belonging to a person by reason of citizenship

    Contrast this to inalienable rights bestowed by your Creator which are rights belonging to a person for simply being a person.

    Now here is where people get messed up. A civil right is normally in the constitution for the US and is a restriction on government intrusion in your life or restriction on your life. For example the 14th amendment does offer some civil rights including life, liberty, and property. All of those can be taken away with due process of the law as stated. You can be executed, you can be thrown in jail, and you can have property seized as evidence all with due process of law (aka a trial or something like that).

    So now, does a civil right mean you are guaranteed this by the government? I'd say no. You aren't guaranteed a piece of property from the government. You are guaranteed the right to have that property if it is yours unless due process takes it away. Same with health care. You have the right to get health care but you don't you aren't guaranteed health care.

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