Originally Posted by ShadowPikachu

I don't really give a flying hippo's arse what you think - your posts here and on the other forums are repugnant, and as of now, you are being put on ignore (to take a page from Steeeeve).

Thank you.

Originally Posted by JPSartre12

And I've posted the statistics and "in general" the majority of abortions are for selfish reasons.

On average, women give four reasons for choosing abortion. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.

I am utterly speachless JP. The very idea that these reasons aren't valid to you astonishes me. That you consider these convenience matters...that the need to be safe and able to provide for oneself and other dependents are selfish to you. It seems the only action a woman can take that you respect is gestation or death. I am flabbergasted. I don't understand you. At all.

Originally Posted by Zardoz

Yes, I noticed and addressed his other observations too. He has some good ones, particularly the emotional ones. Although I may be over looking something, I just don't see a stigmatism placed on women who give their children up for adoption. Nor of the countless bastard children born out of wedlock, no one really cares anymore. Definatly no more than those who have had an abortion.
Good PR spin makes such a mother look noble, giving her child that she can't deal with to someone who wants it and will love it as their own.

Originally Posted by ShadowPikachu

I see no stigmatism either.

Though I agree with both of you that the stigma is nothing like it was in the past, I think that some of it still exists in that many people could never imagine themselves giving their child up for adoption and may be judgemental of those who do.

Here is a web site that I found addressing the concerns of women thinking about adopting out their baby: http://www.babyfromheaven.com/conten...ther-Myths.htm

The first concern noted is a view that "Birth parents who care about their child would never consider adoption.". In the web site's answer to that view, it states:

Ask yourself: “Where did I get the idea that I do not love my child if I make an adoption plan?”
This message may have come from parents, friends, television, or other media. Many people are uneducated about adoption and do not understand it as a loving option.

What this tells me is that these messages from the outside (friends, family, television, etc.) still exist - i.e. there is still some stigma.

By the way, it was fairly difficult to find any web site addressing concerns of parents giving up their baby. The great majority of sites I found were of addressing emotional concerns of the parents who would adopt the child.

Actually all decisions based on the self ARE selfish decisions.
I really don't care. I make them all the time too. Everyone does. While this is a philosophical issue I really see it as odd that people claim not to be selfish when doing something that benefits them or prevents harm to them with little regard to anyone else.

Name a decision then that isn't selfish then?


It is not selfishness it survival, something humans are quite good at. I think the reasons presented were definetly valid. I want to see the statistics that most abortions are for selfish reasons?

Originally Posted by Nefertari

Name a decision then that isn't selfish then?


It is not selfishness it survival, something humans are quite good at. I think the reasons presented were definetly valid. I want to see the statistics that most abortions are for selfish reasons?

Quote by me,

Actually all decisions based on the self ARE selfish decisions.

Survival is 1st and foremost about the self. Duh, it's YOUR SURVIVAL.
As I said, it's a simply philosophy issue but there are plenty of schools of thought that nearly everything a person does is done for selfish reasons or motives.

So what?
Why lie about it? To make yourself feel good, better about how you really are. To be percieved by others as a 'good' person...all those are selfish reasons.

Who really cares?

Originally Posted by jitobear

I am utterly speachless JP. The very idea that these reasons aren't valid to you astonishes me. That you consider these convenience matters...that the need to be safe and able to provide for oneself and other dependents are selfish to you. It seems the only action a woman can take that you respect is gestation or death. I am flabbergasted. I don't understand you. At all.

Let's put this in perspective here. Here's the salient point"three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents". So, what we're talking about is the killing of a human fetus because it would require some adjustments to one's life. That's part of the sacrifices that almost every parent in the world makes. In the specific instance discussed above, we weren't talking about anything more than the inconvenience of going through pregnancy and then giving the baby up for adoption. Now, I know that you're going to start in on how pregnancy is more than an inconvenience, yadda, yadda, yadda, but the fact remains that billions of women have given birth without issue and it is the exception, not the rule, that there are problems. Plus, the poster stated that she intends to have children in the future, so that argument is voided.

As for your "gestation or death" comment. Don't you think that's a tad melodramatic? I don't see millions of mothers out there in the real world dropping like flies because of bearing children.

Originally Posted by Nefertari

Name a decision then that isn't selfish then?

In that instance, the decision to give the baby up for adoption would be less selfish.

It is not selfishness it survival, something humans are quite good at. I think the reasons presented were definetly valid. I want to see the statistics that most abortions are for selfish reasons?

You can spin the term any way you like it, but I have already cited the statistics. Is it really for your "survival" to have an abortion so that you can finish school without interruption or get a promotion at work? Certainly, nobody will kill you if you don't graduate from college or get promoted, so how is that "survival"?

Originally Posted by JPSartre12

In that instance, the decision to give the baby up for adoption would be less selfish.


You can spin the term any way you like it, but I have already cited the statistics. Is it really for your "survival" to have an abortion so that you can finish school without interruption or get a promotion at work? Certainly, nobody will kill you if you don't graduate from college or get promoted, so how is that "survival"?

One thing all of your arguements assume is that abortion at any stage is so very bad that one needs an awfully good reason to have one. That is something that most on the pro-choice side would disagree with you on - particularly with regards to abortion in the first trimester (where the great majority of abortions are done).

About 2/3rds of Americans would keep abortion legal in the first trimester - which suggests that they don't have too much of a moral problem with first trimester abortions. If they don't view first trimester abortions as a big moral negative, then most reasons (including what you call selfish reasons) are sufficient for them. It is your responsibility, then, to convince them that abortion in that first trimester is so morally bad they have to have awfully good reasons to have one. As far as I know (since I haven't read too many of your posts), you have not been convincing on that point. Start with that and the rest will follow.

Originally Posted by Another opinion

One thing all of your arguements assume is that abortion at any stage is so very bad that one needs an awfully good reason to have one. That is something that most on the pro-choice side would disagree with you on - particularly with regards to abortion in the first trimester (where the great majority of abortions are done).

About 2/3rds of Americans would keep abortion legal in the first trimester - which suggests that they don't have too much of a moral problem with first trimester abortions. If they don't view first trimester abortions as a big moral negative, then most reasons (including what you call selfish reasons) are sufficient for them. It is your responsibility, then, to convince them that abortion in that first trimester is so morally bad they have to have awfully good reasons to have one. As far as I know (since I haven't read too many of your posts), you have not been convincing on that point. Start with that and the rest will follow.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Not once did I state when a human life began, I made a statement that abortion was performed, in the majority of instances, for selfish reasons and that it was an inherently immoral act. You can argue the value or validity of those selfish reasons, but dems are da facts.
I do like your qualifier about first trimester abortions and its morality. It reminds me of the phrase " a little bit pregnant".

Originally Posted by Caprii

Why do women opt for abortion over adoption?

When contraception failed in my monogamous long term relationship, I heavily researched both options, as well as parenting. I looked into requirements for Medicaid, WIC, and other subsidized assistance offered in my community. I called a few clinics around town. That's an interesting story, but not for here.

I had heart to heart talks to many different people with different viewpoints.

I decided to have an abortion because I was sick all the time. I had diagnosed migraine headaches constantly, and my seizure disorder that had laid dormant for years returned. I couldn't leave my house. I lost my job. I was in the middle of my education (it was early summer) and if I continued my pregnancy it would have put me back a semester, thus costing thousands of dollars. The father did not want me to continue the pregnancy because he was concerned about my physical health.

Just thinking about that time period makes me nauseated.

I understood the merits of adoption, especially since my father was adopted. I talked to my aunt about adoption and foster care, since she has participated in both. I also thought about parenting, the love and all the things I have to offer. I knew that the father would have supported my decision to parent, I knew that our financial hardships could be dealt with, and I knew that my education could be continued later.

I came to the conclusion that abortion was the best choice for me and my health. I appreciate that some may find this decision selfish, and essentially it is, since it was made with my best interests in mind. I would also hope that even if they consider it selfish, they understand the reasons why I made that decision. And if it was your wife, daughter, friend, and she was dealing with what I was, you would not expect her to continue a pregnancy.

Originally Posted by JPSartre12

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Not once did I state when a human life began, I made a statement that abortion was performed, in the majority of instances, for selfish reasons and that it was an inherently immoral act. You can argue the value or validity of those selfish reasons, but dems are da facts.

However, your used the term "selfish" in suggesting that selfish reasons were not valid reasons. The great majority of decisions people make every day are selfish reasons - from decisions on career, to decisions whether to try to get pregnant at a particular time, to decisions on what food to eat - that does not make those decisions bad.

As a comparison, people who use contraception do so because they want to enjoy the emotional and sensual pleasures of sex without the consequence of pregnancy. This includes the great majority of married couples as well. The sex acts which are for the main purpose of procreation are by far in the minority - for both married and single couples. Inherently, then, the great majority of sexual acts and use of contraceptives in those sexual acts are for technically selfish reasons. Does that make it wrong to have sex outside of reasons of procreation, or to use contraceptives when one does?

I would suspect that you would not object to the selfish reasons that people have for using contraceptives because I would guess that you do not think of the use of contraceptives as being morally bad. However, I am assuming that you do view the selfish reasons that people have for aborting as being bad because you DO view abortion as being morally bad.

The bottom line is that selfish reasons are only viewed as bad if they are used to support an immoral act. You have not proven that first trimester abortions constitute an immoral act.

Originally Posted by JPSartre

I do like your qualifier about first trimester abortions and its morality. It reminds me of the phrase " a little bit pregnant".

Since you seem to value "life" as by far the most critical aspect of the embryo/fetus, I am not surprised that it makes no big moral difference for you if abortions are performed in the first trimester or the last. Pro-choice proponents do not see "life" as the most critical aspect but start placing more moral value on the fetus once other things come into play (ex. mental existence). In other words, we do see a big moral difference between aborting a zygote vs aborting a fetus one day from birth. Why? Because it is not merely "life" that we value but other things that come into play later on in a pregnancy.

Originally Posted by ShadowPikachu

Thanks. I guess I need you to clarify your question a bit - what does "it" in your question refer to? There are two things that I can think that the word might refer to (how I felt about the abortion, or how I felt about adoption are the two possibilities), so I'll need you to expand on that for me to give you a good answer.

I guess I am wondering about your feelings and thinking immediately prior to, during and immediately after making the decision and following through on it. It seems (and I have little experience in the matter) that it would be a very difficult thing to do.

Huck

Originally Posted by JPSartre12

Let's put this in perspective here. Here's the salient point"three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents". So, what we're talking about is the killing of a human fetus because it would require some adjustments to one's life.

Thats a rather HUGE assumption. These things are not necesarily negated by a few little adjustments. You're trivializing again. Losing a job or a scholorship or income isn't just a mere adjustment - ESPECIALLY when providing for dependents.

Originally Posted by JPSartre12

As for your "gestation or death" comment. Don't you think that's a tad melodramatic? I don't see millions of mothers out there in the real world dropping like flies because of bearing children.

Your missing my point. You call everything going on in a pregnant woman's life short of her death a selfish convenience matter, this tells me that you think very little of the activities of woman who are alive unless they happen to be pregnant. I mean those selfish bitches are out there getting educated, working, providing for families. How dare they!!!???

Originally Posted by Bell

.....

I came to the conclusion that abortion was the best choice for me and my health. I appreciate that some may find this decision selfish, and essentially it is, since it was made with my best interests in mind. I would also hope that even if they consider it selfish, they understand the reasons why I made that decision. And if it was your wife, daughter, friend, and she was dealing with what I was, you would not expect her to continue a pregnancy.

I would expect nothing less from the women in my life. They've been raised with a different value system, evidently. My wife threw up every morning before going to work when she was pregnant and still managed to work and have 2 more children afterwards. And when she got large with the first one, she lost her job as the youngest assistant regional manager for a major young women's chain because she didn't portray the look that they were promoting. We took it in stride and sacrificed to make ends meet since I had just graduated and was starting out as a chemist.....but we did the right thing.