Originally Posted by jyoshu

Killing babies no different from abortion, experts say - Telegraph

The "pro-choice" position taken to its natural conclusions. The fact this is even being discussed is frightening stuff.

“We take ‘person’ to mean an individual who is capable of attributing to her own existence some (at least) basic value such that being deprived of this existence represents a loss to her.”

sinjin - This definition of person is not one I've heard before nor one with which I agree.

Isn't the UK Telegraph something of a sensationalist rag?

Originally Posted by simone

Isn't the UK Telegraph something of a sensationalist rag?

The telegraph is reporting it.
These people are not made up.
No doubt you agree with them Simone

Catch the leftie twist on the guardians article...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...at-free-speech

yeah, except the babies are not parasites living off a woman's body and fetuses are.

big difference.

Originally Posted by zombiemeathead

yeah, except the babies are not parasites living off a woman's body and fetuses are.

big difference.

So a baby that feeds off the teat of a mother is not a ' parasite' whereas a fetus that feeds off the placenta is a parasite?

Well that is no surprise; the statement is true when you take someone’s life without a doubt that is killing. Think about it, life actually started during fertilization stage which means unborn child is human being now; have rights. Thus, abortion is not different from killing no matter in what state they are now.

Originally Posted by janeswan

Well that is no surprise; the statement is true when you take someone’s life without a doubt that is killing. Think about it, life actually started during fertilization stage which means unborn child is human being now; have rights. Thus, abortion is not different from killing no matter in what state they are now.

I disagree. A fertilized human ovum has a long way to go before it becomes a sentient "being".
Abortion is indeed killing, but not the killing of a human being; a.k.a. person.

There is no chicken in an omelet.

Originally Posted by sinjin

I disagree. A fertilized human ovum has a long way to go before it becomes a sentient "being".
Abortion is indeed killing, but not the killing of a human being; a.k.a. person.

There is no chicken in an omelet.

Eggs used for cooking aren't fertilized.

Jyoshu is correct, this is the natural evolution because at no point did any pro-deathers ever stop and consider by what principle they were deciding who has a right to life and who does not except whether they wanted them alive or not. None of the superficial excuses were rational, and indeed without a comprehensive moral theory there was no hope of it. If there is anything the left fears it is the concept of a comprehensive moral theory.

If sensation was sufficient then animals would have a right to life. If lack of conscious thought made it OK to kill then killing a sleeping person would be alright. If it is permissible to kill the child because it is dependent on you than you would be able to kill them up until they got a job.

Originally Posted by Freedom

Eggs used for cooking aren't fertilized.

Fertilized eggs are eaten all the time.

Jyoshu is correct, this is the natural evolution because at no point did any pro-deathers ever stop and consider by what principle they were deciding who has a right to life and who does not except whether they wanted them alive or not. None of the superficial excuses were rational, and indeed without a comprehensive moral theory there was no hope of it. If there is anything the left fears it is the concept of a comprehensive moral theory.

Moral theory untehtered to a religious dogma is fine with me.

If sensation was sufficient then animals would have a right to life. If lack of conscious thought made it OK to kill then killing a sleeping person would be alright.

There's a world of difference between someone sleeping or in a coma and someone brain dead.

If it is permissible to kill the child because it is dependent on you than you would be able to kill them up until they got a job.

What child?

Originally Posted by sinjin

Fertilized eggs are eaten all the time.

So are chickens.

Originally Posted by sinjin

Moral theory untehtered to a religious dogma is fine with me.

Then you would be a rare but rational individual. Subjectivism infects so very many.

Originally Posted by sinjin

There's a world of difference between someone sleeping or in a coma and someone brain dead.

Is that where you would draw the line? Brain dead? because as soon as there is a brain there is activity.

Originally Posted by sinjin

What child?

Any child, including the ones killed before birth.

Like many, I draw the line when the fetus has reached the stage where the physical structures
necessary for consciousness have developed. That's not until the third trimester.

Originally Posted by sinjin

Like many, I draw the line when the fetus has reached the stage where the physical structures
necessary for consciousness have developed. That's not until the third trimester.

You said brain dead, now you say consciousness. What are the physical structures necessary for consciousness? since you must know what they are to know if they are present or not.

Originally Posted by Freedom

What are the physical structures necessary for consciousness? since you must know what they are to know if they are present or not.

The thalamo-cortical complex.

Originally Posted by Freedom

You said brain dead, now you say consciousness.

That was in response to your suggestion that we might kill sleeping people since they are unconscious. Fetuses that have not developed sufficiently are not unconscious in the same way as a sleeping person. They are "pre-conscious" and are more akin to the brain dead in that they have no higher brain function since they have no higher brain.

Either these people are making extreme statements for the purpose of drawing attention to the subject to get people discussing the matter, or there are some seriously sick individuals out there that need to be visited by the authorities for advocating murder.