Originally Posted by smiley

Saying that morality is boolean would suggest that there is one ultimate and universal morality. I am not sure that I can believe that, but if it were true, for someone to claim that they know or understand this universal morality would be delusional in the extreme.

Why? (on all counts)

Originally Posted by smiley

Whatever your opinion on this matter, you are still drawing a line somewhere. You may start by saying that fertilisation is where you draw the line, and claim that god has created life and noone should be able to destroy that life. But this brings up a whole heap of questions:

What about other animal? Do they count? God gave them life too. - Of course not it only applies to humans, you might say.

I would call it determining or discovering the line. God does not exist.

Originally Posted by smiley

What about victims of rape? Should they be forced to carry the product of a hateful crime to term? - Oh, maybe that can be an exception.

They should be forced to refrain from any intentional destruction of human life. It is rhetorical manipulation to phrase it like that. Suppose the child is born, should they be forced to care for the product of a hateful crime to maturity? Or should they be permitted to kill them to save themselves the trouble.

Rape is irrelevant, anyone who would make an exception for it is making the rights of the child dependent on the intentions of the parents, this is untenable.

Originally Posted by smiley

What about cases where the foetus endangers the life of the mother? - Okay, maybe that can be an exception too.

As in any case involving two lives the action most likely to preserve the most life is the correct one for doctors and emergency responders.

Originally Posted by smiley

And so the line moves as further questions are asked. As I said, it is not black and white.

(pulls out measure), nope it looks like it's at the same place.

Originally Posted by smiley

Noone can claim to know the ultimate moral answer to this dilemma. We must learn from each case and move the line back and forward as we gain more experience.

People can claim anything, but presuming you wish to say no one can know, I once again ask "why?".

Originally Posted by theolddog

Interesting post, but it begs the question of who gets to make the choice.

Government that is so intrusive as to interpose itself between the pregnant female and her choice of whether olr not to take her pregnancy to term is the height of totalitarianism.

If we grant the government the right to BAN abortion today, what is there to stop it from mandating it tomorrow?

The profetallifers who post here should be careful about what they wish for.

That is an argument of slippery slope. Would you have so easily stated that if we ban murder today what is there to stop the government from mandating it tomorrow? Shouldn't whether you kill your neighbors and co-workers be up to you?

@gansao - unrelated question, do you just have a gallery of sexual deviations for your avatars? Oh wait was Palin representing heterosexuality or prostitution?

None of my avatars have shown any form of sexual deviations.....My avatar of Ms Palin represents the power of photoshop.

Originally Posted by gansao

None of my avatars have shown any form of sexual deviations.....My avatar of Ms Palin represents the power of photoshop.

Two guys with almost nothing on and erections.
Two girls with the tag bum pincher
Now a dog superimposed on a beach scene with the tag 'bum biter'....

Sir there is a definite pattern to these choices

Originally Posted by Freedom

Two guys with almost nothing on and erections.
Two girls with the tag bum pincher
Now a dog superimposed on a beach scene with the tag 'bum biter'....

Sir there is a definite pattern to these choices

Cant see any 'sexual deviations' there...
I have a picture of a dogs arse that looks like a face,maybe that would break the pattern

Appeals court says Texas can enforce abortion law

AUSTIN, Texas – A Texas abortion law passed last year that requires doctors to show sonograms to patients can be enforced while opponents challenge the measure in court, a federal appeals court said Tuesday in a ruling that signaled the judges believe the law is constitutional.

The three-judge panel of the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals overturned a temporary order against enforcing the law and went further to advise U.S. District Judge Sam Sparks how he should ultimately rule in the case. Chief Judge Edith H. Jones used her opinion to systematically dismantle the argument that the Texas law infringes on the free speech rights of doctors and patients, the key argument against the law.

"The required disclosures of a sonogram, the fetal heartbeat, and their medical descriptions are the epitome of truthful, non-misleading information," Jones wrote. "The appellees failed to demonstrate constitutional flaws" with the law.

Appeals Court Says Texas Can Enforce Abortion Law | Fox News

Outstanding!!

Originally Posted by Easyrider

Appeals court says Texas can enforce abortion law

AUSTIN, Texas – A Texas abortion law passed last year that requires doctors to show sonograms to patients can be enforced while opponents challenge the measure in court, a federal appeals court said Tuesday in a ruling that signaled the judges believe the law is constitutional.

The three-judge panel of the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals overturned a temporary order against enforcing the law and went further to advise U.S. District Judge Sam Sparks how he should ultimately rule in the case. Chief Judge Edith H. Jones used her opinion to systematically dismantle the argument that the Texas law infringes on the free speech rights of doctors and patients, the key argument against the law.

"The required disclosures of a sonogram, the fetal heartbeat, and their medical descriptions are the epitome of truthful, non-misleading information," Jones wrote. "The appellees failed to demonstrate constitutional flaws" with the law.

Appeals Court Says Texas Can Enforce Abortion Law | Fox News

Outstanding!!

Big deal, that's not going to stop anyone from getting an abortion.

Originally Posted by Accipiter

Big deal, that's not going to stop anyone from getting an abortion.

Yeah it will. It already has in other states.

Originally Posted by Easyrider

Yeah it will. It already has in other states.

Got a reference? I would like to read more about that.

Originally Posted by Accipiter

Got a reference? I would like to read more about that.

Saved by sonogram

Last fall, Stephanie Monegro flipped through yellow pages, looking to get an abortion. A high-school dropout, the 17-year-old New Yorker was two months pregnant and already the mother of a three-year-old boy.

Seeing an ad for Expectant Mother Care, she went to the crisis pregnancy center (CPC) and asked about an abortion. Counselor Linda Susan Marzulla said the center did not provide abortions, but asked Monegro if she wanted to have a sonogram taken of her embryonic sac.

"[Marzulla] asked why I would want to kill my baby," Monegro told Christianity Today. "She said I would always regret it. [Then] I saw my first sonogram of the baby, and I burst into tears. I thought: Why would I want to kill something that's living?"

More pregnant women are asking that same question. Crisis pregnancy centers nationwide have discovered that performing sonograms early in pregnancy influences many pregnant women to change their minds about abortion.

Saved by sonogram | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction

Originally Posted by Easyrider

Saved by sonogram

Last fall, Stephanie Monegro flipped through yellow pages, looking to get an abortion. A high-school dropout, the 17-year-old New Yorker was two months pregnant and already the mother of a three-year-old boy.

Seeing an ad for Expectant Mother Care, she went to the crisis pregnancy center (CPC) and asked about an abortion. Counselor Linda Susan Marzulla said the center did not provide abortions, but asked Monegro if she wanted to have a sonogram taken of her embryonic sac.

"[Marzulla] asked why I would want to kill my baby," Monegro told Christianity Today. "She said I would always regret it. [Then] I saw my first sonogram of the baby, and I burst into tears. I thought: Why would I want to kill something that's living?"

More pregnant women are asking that same question. Crisis pregnancy centers nationwide have discovered that performing sonograms early in pregnancy influences many pregnant women to change their minds about abortion.

Saved by sonogram | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction

All they are saying is the number of abortions went down.

To say that it was caused by showing woman sonograms is not specified.

It could have gone down for other reasons like sexual education or increased availability of birth control or the morning after pill.

That nice little story you posted is what's called anecdotal evidence, which is notoriously unreliable.

To do a controlled study that could produce a real answer hasn’t been done.

Originally Posted by Accipiter

All they are saying is the number of abortions went down.

To say that it was caused by showing woman sonograms is not specified.

It could have gone down for other reasons like sexual education or increased availability of birth control or the morning after pill.

That nice little story you posted is what's called anecdotal evidence, which is notoriously unreliable.

To do a controlled study that could produce a real answer hasn’t been done.

Crisis pregnancy centers nationwide have discovered that performing sonograms early in pregnancy influences many pregnant women to change their minds about abortion.

You're really deluded if you think a lot of mothers seeing their little babies for the first time isn't going to make a whole bunch of them keep them and forego having an abortion.

Originally Posted by Easyrider

Crisis pregnancy centers nationwide have discovered that performing sonograms early in pregnancy influences many pregnant women to change their minds about abortion.

You're really deluded if you think a lot of mothers seeing their little babies for the first time isn't going to make a whole bunch of them keep them and forego having an abortion.

That's just more anecdotal “evidence” dumbass.

Originally Posted by Accipiter

That's just more anecdotal “evidence” dumbass.

Who cares? And that's your mentality, not mine, future Pit dweller.