Originally Posted by Freedom

I was responding to your point, not attempting to drive a new one. I think abortion should be illegal, not because any arbitrary majority says so but because it is immoral.

I dont. I dont see anything immoral about most abortions. In fact, I think that there are times where NOT having an abortion is the immoral choice.

So, now that we are operating in the real world where there is no such thing as a moral absolute, which part of the constitution do you see as giving the federal government the power to regulate abortion??

Originally Posted by Easyrider

Let's.

What does the Bible say about when life begins?

“And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life.” (Exodus 21:22-23)

If you come to my house and kill my horse, you ar guilty of a crime and owe me compensation. If I kill my own horse and dump it in a ditch, no crime has been committed. So what??

Straight from the Jewish Torah, God immediately affirms the value of human life in a mother’s womb.

God did not write the Jewish Torah.

Next, a divinely appointed prophet from the womb:

Jeremiah 1:5 – ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Other prophets and Biblical personalities ordained from their mother’s wombs:

Samson: Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, “A man of God came to me and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. And I did not ask him where he came from, nor did he tell me his name. “But he said to me, `Behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and now you shall not drink wine or strong drink nor eat any unclean thing, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.’” (Judges 13:6-7, see also Judges 16:17)

John the Baptist: “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother’s womb.” (Luke 1:15)

Jesus, the Son of God: Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” – Luke chapter 1

The Apostle Paul: “But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother’s womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased…” (Galatians 1:15)

It is clear in scripture that in some way, God creates life in a mother’s womb.

Psalm 139:13 – ‘For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.’

Of course, the question for the pro-abortion crowd, is: What divine insight does the pro-abortion crowd think they have to where they can destroy in a mother’s womb that which God is somehow instrumental in creating?

There is nothing in this to indicate that god is instrumental in creating the VAST, VAST majority of fetuses. These were SPECIAL cases, Easy, and the fact that god took a special interest in them in the womb is part of what made them special. They were not just random babies being birthed, God SENT them specifically.

You are not Jesus, or samson, or Paul, or John. God did not send you specifically. You were a lump of cells that reproduced using well understood biological processes, the same processes used by sewer rats.

I suppose you could theoretically argue, if you believe in such things, that we should outlaw abortion in order to avoid the possibility that an individual who has been sent directly by god, and who god has a personal interest in, is not aborted. Then again....you would think god could take care of his pets.

Originally Posted by daewoo

If you come to my house and kill my horse, you ar guilty of a crime and owe me compensation. If I kill my own horse and dump it in a ditch, no crime has been committed. So what??

God did not write the Jewish Torah.

Inspired is the term. God inspired the writing.

Originally Posted by daewoo

There is nothing in this to indicate that god is instrumental in creating the VAST, VAST majority of fetuses.

Yeah, there is. I've already provided some of the scriptures that I believe attest to that.

Originally Posted by daewoo

You are not Jesus, or samson, or Paul, or John. God did not send you specifically. You were a lump of cells that reproduced using well understood biological processes, the same processes used by sewer rats.

<Flush>

Keep killing the babies, daewoo - you and your pro-infanticide crowd - and see where you wind up after you die.

Originally Posted by Easyrider

Inspired is the term. God inspired the writing.

Prove it

Yeah, there is. I've already provided some of the scriptures that I believe attest to that.

And as I have pointed out, they do not attest to it at all. If anything what you posted would tend to indicate the opposite...that the only fetuses god cares about are the ones for special people. If he knew everybody in the womb, it would be silly to point out that he knew these individuals in the womb because it would be obvious.

Your interpretation is idiotic.

Keep killing the babies, daewoo - you and your pro-infanticide crowd - and see where you wind up after you die.

Probably in a better place than you. As I have pointed out before, if you truly believe that millions of babies are being killed in this country every year and have not devoted all your time, treasure, and your very life to ending that, you will burn in hell. No question. Even if it turns out that you are wrong...and god does not care about those lumps of cells, you will still burn in hell because you believed you were standing by and doing nothing while babies were killed, and were OK with that.

Originally Posted by daewoo

So, now that we are operating in the real world where there is no such thing as a moral absolute, which part of the constitution do you see as giving the federal government the power to regulate abortion??

In the real world it is morality that is absolute and arbitrary authorities like the constitution that are fluid.

Originally Posted by Freedom

In the real world it is morality that is absolute and arbitrary authorities like the constitution that are fluid.

Wrong answer, sport. If that was the case, you and I would not have different moral stances on abortion....or anything else.

Morals are not absolute. They never have been. The very idea lies somewhere between ridiculous and moronic. As has been amply demonstrated here for you before, morals have been fluid throughout history.

So, now that we have put that silliness behind us, please answer the question. Where in the constitution do you see power for the federal government to regulate abortion?

Originally Posted by daewoo

Wrong answer, sport. If that was the case, you and I would not have different moral stances on abortion....or anything else.

Why?

Originally Posted by daewoo

Morals are not absolute. They never have been.

How do you know?

Originally Posted by daewoo

The very idea lies somewhere between ridiculous and moronic. As has been amply demonstrated here for you before, morals have been fluid throughout history.

Ad hominem

Originally Posted by daewoo

So, now that we have put that silliness behind us, please answer the question. Where in the constitution do you see power for the federal government to regulate abortion?

I never said I did. If I was to make the case though it would come from wherever they have the power to regulate murder.

Originally Posted by Freedom

Why?

Because you would be able to logically illustrate the superior value of a particular moral stance.

How do you know?

Because we can look at historical moral paradigms and recognize that they have shifted over time.

Ad hominem

No, its not.

I never said I did. If I was to make the case though it would come from wherever they have the power to regulate murder.

And where is that? I have read the constitution a few times and have never seen anything that would tend to suggest that the federal government has the power to regulate murder. That would fall under the individual states police power.

There is a federal law against murder, but it only applies under a few specific circumstances such as murders that occur on federal property, or if the murdered individual is a federal agent, occurs in an area under federal jurisdiction but not inside a state (such as DC), etc...

So, unless you bang a federal agent and then have the baby aborted on a military base somewhere, the federal government should have nothing to say about it.

I am OK with that.

Originally Posted by daewoo

Because you would be able to logically illustrate the superior value of a particular moral stance.

And?

Originally Posted by daewoo

Because we can look at historical moral paradigms and recognize that they have shifted over time.

Really, how do you record the change in a moral truth?

No, its not.

Yes it was.

Originally Posted by daewoo

And where is that? I have read the constitution a few times and have never seen anything that would tend to suggest that the federal government has the power to regulate murder. That would fall under the individual states police power.

There is a federal law against murder, but it only applies under a few specific circumstances such as murders that occur on federal property, or if the murdered individual is a federal agent, occurs in an area under federal jurisdiction but not inside a state (such as DC), etc...

So, unless you bang a federal agent and then have the baby aborted on a military base somewhere, the federal government should have nothing to say about it.

.....

Originally Posted by daewoo

Prove it

Jesus spoke about Moses. If you can bust his resurrection, which Jesus himself prophesied, you'll have a win as far as I'm concerned.

Originally Posted by daewoo

And as I have pointed out, they do not attest to it at all. If anything what you posted would tend to indicate the opposite...that the only fetuses god cares about are the ones for special people. If he knew everybody in the womb, it would be silly to point out that he knew these individuals in the womb because it would be obvious.

Your interpretation is idiotic.

But you're spiritually-challenged, so what would you know?

Originally Posted by daewoo

As I have pointed out before, if you truly believe that millions of babies are being killed in this country every year and have not devoted all your time, treasure, and your very life to ending that, you will burn in hell. No question.

Now that's what's idiotic. But I am hitting my licks in a public way to stop the carnage so that's a lot more than what you're doing.

How large of a pile of bloody, dismembered babies will it take until your stone-cold conscience is twinged? Because that pile, however large it needs to be, is your legacy. It's a sick, perverted, and hidious thing to behold. I hope you live with it in your dreams. I hope there are innocent faces that haunt you daily until you wise up and stop enabling the infanticide of millions of babies.

STOP KILLING THE INNOCENT UNBORN.

Butchers.

Originally Posted by Easyrider

Jesus spoke about Moses. If you can bust his resurrection, which Jesus himself prophesied, you'll have a win as far as I'm concerned.

PROVE IT.

But you're spiritually-challenged, so what would you know?

I can read.

Now that's what's idiotic. But I am hitting my licks in a public way to stop the carnage so that's a lot more than what you're doing.

How large of a pile of bloody, dismembered babies will it take until your stone-cold conscience is twinged? Because that pile, however large it needs to be, is your legacy. It's a sick, perverted, and hidious thing to behold. I hope you live with it in your dreams. I hope there are innocent faces that haunt you daily until you wise up and stop enabling the infanticide of millions of babies.

STOP KILLING THE INNOCENT UNBORN.

Butchers.

No, that is not idiotic, that is fact. I can literally not imagine a worse situation to be in than standing for judgement and having to explain why I stood by and did nothing to stop the murder of millions of babies. Hitler would have been in a better position...at least he was focused primarily on killing adults who could fight back.

Face it, Easy, if your understanding of heaven and hell is correct, you are going to burn in the fires of hell for all eternity. IF you are correct, you are going to have to stand in front of your god and explain that you stood by and did nothing while millions of babies were killed because 9 geriatrics in black robes said so.

This is probably what bothers me most about you, easy. The fact you are an ignorant bigot who does not understand the very religion he claims to follow is not that big a deal...the world is full of ignorant bigots. The fact that you stand up and claim that millions of babies are being killed while you do NOTHING makes you truly evil.

Originally Posted by daewoo

Wrong answer, sport. If that was the case, you and I would not have different moral stances on abortion....or anything else.

Morals are not absolute. They never have been. The very idea lies somewhere between ridiculous and moronic. As has been amply demonstrated here for you before, morals have been fluid throughout history.

So, now that we have put that silliness behind us, please answer the question. Where in the constitution do you see power for the federal government to regulate abortion?

You didn't really expect an answer, did you?

The profetallifers tap dance like Sammy Davis around that question.

What they also don't realize is that, if you give the government the power to BAN abortions today, you also must concede that same government has the power to MANDATE them tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Freedom

I was responding to your point, not attempting to drive a new one. I think abortion should be illegal, not because any arbitrary majority says so but because it is immoral.

Gotcha.
I cannot say you are wrong. My opinion (which I do not pretend is fact) is that it should not be illegal. I am not pro-abortion, I just think that the federal government should not tell us how to live our lives. My understanding of the Constitution is that this should be a matter left to the States. I do not have a problem with a State making abotion illegal, I just have a problem with the Supreme Court telling Kentuckians. Californians, or Texans how to live.
My stance is that if you think abortion is wrong.. don't have an abortion. If you think homosexuality is wrong... then don't be gay.
I do have a problem with welfare. I have a teenage cousin that keeps popping out babies she cannot afford. I do have a problem with the idea that you or I should have to pay for it. And under that concept, it is cheaper for me to pay for someone's abortion than the rest of their life.
Yes, that is a bit cold. However I think this topic has unfairly been pushed on most of us. People need to take responsibility for their actions. If you cannot afford a condom, then you cannot afford a baby. If one believes that abortion AND birth-control are wrong, the something is wrong with their deductive reasoning.

Originally Posted by daewoo

Face it, Easy, if your understanding of heaven and hell is correct, you are going to burn in the fires of hell for all eternity. IF you are correct, you are going to have to stand in front of your god and explain that you stood by and did nothing while millions of babies were killed because 9 geriatrics in black robes said so.

Did nothing? I'm all over your sorry butt, and I have a public forum against abortion too. You're the one on his way down to the Pit for your stiff-necked defense of infanticide.

Originally Posted by daewoo

This is probably what bothers me most about you, easy. The fact you are an ignorant bigot who does not understand the very religion he claims to follow is not that big a deal...the world is full of ignorant bigots. The fact that you stand up and claim that millions of babies are being killed while you do NOTHING makes you truly evil.

See above.

Did you ever answer how large a pile of bloody, dismembered babies it would take for your conscience to be tweaked so you might change your mind and help defend the innocent unborn? How large a pile, daewoo???

Or are you just going to XXXX more hot air out of your rump and continue to protect and advance the infanticide of innocent babies?